The Ming Cult during the time of DGSD, LOCH, and ROCH

[Ken Cheng]

According to an offhand remark made by Cheung Mo Gei in HSDS, the Ming Cult had been a presence in the Chinese wulin for centuries by the Yuan Dynasty. We know for certain that the Ming Cult had been present in China at least as far back as the period between DGSD and LOCH (Chow Bak Tung told Gwok Jing about the entire incident between the Ming Cult and Wong Seung that led to the creation of the 9 Yum Jen Ging), and it probably even predated the era of DGSD.

Oddly, we hear *nothing* about the Ming Cult until HSDS other than Chow Bak Tung's discussion with Gwok Jing on Peach Blossom Island during LOCH. During the LOCH/ROCH era, this is understandable because the cult was likely still recovering from its devastating encounter with Wong Seung, but what about the DGSD era and earlier? Just one of many questions:

1. What was the Ming Cult doing before and during the era of DGSD? It was supposed to have been a major wulin power for centuries (Cheung Mo Gei compared the Ming Cult to Shaolin Temple and the Beggar's Union for longevity and influence), but the Ming Cult was never even mentioned in DGSD.

2. Other than Chow Bak Tung and Gwok Jing, did anyone else alive during the era of L/ROCH know about the existence of the Ming Cult? The cult had apparently gone underground during the decades after its near destruction at Wong Seung's hands, but was it even marginally involved in wulin at the time? Could Ming Cult members have secretly been part of Gwok Jing's Seung Yeung defense force or Yeung Gor's group of allies in ROCH?

3. Sometime after ROCH and before HSDS proper began, the Ming Cult once again emerged as an important presence in wulin. When did this happen? It was before the main story of HSDS began, but how much earlier? Did the Ming Cult's resurgence happen closer to the end of ROCH or closer to the beginning of HSDS?

4. It was to defeat the Ming Cult that Wong Seung created the 9 Yum Jen Ging. If so, it would only make sense that Wong Seung needed to defeat the Ming Cult's most powerful martial art...the Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee. Was the 9 Yum Jen Ging primarily designed to counter the Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee?

Ironically, although Wong Seung himself never got the opportunity to use the 9 Yum Jen Ging against members of the Ming Cult, some 200 years later, a portion (the 9 Yum White Bone Claws) of his martial arts manual would indeed be used against a Ming Cult leader (Cheung Mo Gei).

[ChronoReverse]

4. It was to defeat the Ming Cult that Wong Seung created the 9 Yum Jen Ging. If so, it would only make sense that Wong Seung needed to defeat the Ming Cult's most powerful martial art...the Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee. Was the 9 Yum Jen Ging primarily designed to counter the Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee?

It seems that one-on-one, HS was already strong enough to win. 9 Yin was supposed to allow him to take them all on and still win. It's hard to imagine what kind of genius it would take to allow for such an accomplishment.

[Ken Cheng]

It seems that one-on-one, HS was already strong enough to win. 9 Yin was supposed to allow him to take them all on and still win. It's hard to imagine what kind of genius it would take to allow for such an accomplishment.

It's also frightening to think that had Chow Chi Yerk mastered the 9 Yum Jen Ging, the entire Ming Cult (other than Cheung Mo Gei) would have been at her mercy.

[Whsie]

According to an offhand remark made by Cheung Mo Gei in HSDS, the Ming Cult had been a presence in the Chinese wulin for centuries by the Yuan Dynasty. We know for certain that it existed at least as far back as the period between DGSD and LOCH (Chow Bak Tung told Gwok Jing about the entire incident between the Ming Cult and Wong Seung that led to the creation of the 9 Yum Jen Ging), and it probably even predated the era of DGSD.

Oddly, we hear *nothing* about the Ming Cult until HSDS other than Chow Bak Tung's discussion with Gwok Jing on Peach Blossom Island during LOCH. During the LOCH/ROCH era, this is understandable because the cult was likely still recovering from its devastating encounter with Wong Seung, but what about the DGSD era and earlier? Just one of many questions:

1. What was the Ming Cult doing before and during the era of DGSD? It was supposed to have been a major wulin power for centuries (Cheung Mo Gei compared the Ming Cult to Shaolin Temple and the Beggar's Union for longevity and influence), but the Ming Cult was never even mentioned in DGSD.

2. Other than Chow Bak Tung and Gwok Jing, did anyone else alive during the era of L/ROCH know about the existence of the Ming Cult? The cult had apparently gone underground during the decades after its near destruction at Wong Seung's hands, but was it even marginally involved in wulin at the time? Could Ming Cult members have secretly been part of Gwok Jing's Seung Yeung defense force or Yeung Gor's group of allies in ROCH?

3. Sometime after ROCH and before HSDS proper began, the Ming Cult once again emerged as an important presence in wulin. When did this happen? It was before the main story of HSDS began, but how much earlier? Did the Ming Cult's resurgence happen closer to the end of ROCH or closer to the beginning of HSDS?

4. It was to defeat the Ming Cult that Wong Seung created the 9 Yum Jen Ging. If so, it would only make sense that Wong Seung needed to defeat the Ming Cult's most powerful martial art...the Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee. Was the 9 Yum Jen Ging primarily designed to counter the Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee?

Ironically, although Wong Seung himself never got the opportunity to use the 9 Yum Jen Ging against members of the Ming Cult, some 200 years later, a portion (the 9 Yum White Bone Claws) of his martial arts manual would indeed be used against a Ming Cult leader (Cheung Mo Gei).

1. Before DGSD, Ming's leader was probably very famous. This leader 方腊 during the North Song times was “四大寇”之一，和宋江、王庆、田虎等人齐名.
During ROCH times was emperor Song Li Zhong. And the leader was 张三枪 at that time. The other two noticeable leaders of South Song was 王宗石 and 余五婆.
4. I doubt 9 Yin can trully counter QKDLY completly. Before ZWJ, in the Mainland Ming Cult, the highest level ever reached was the 5th level by the 8th generation leader, but the leader died the same day of fire deviation. From that point on, the maximum level learned was level 4. This suggests that even if HS found a way to counter QKDLY, the highest level guaranteed by HS to break is level 4. Level 5+ is much deeper and it's unknown if it's breakable. However, I doubt it because the difference in philsophy and understanding in between each level was described as "several times" by JY himself in HSDS.

[ChronoReverse]

Just remember that it was supposed to allow HS to break level 4 without a sweat. Before he devised 9 Yin, he already could beat level 4 if it were one-on-one.

I'm repeating myself, but this really shows how much potential 9 Yin has. I wish we got to see GJ in action at the end of ROCH to see how much of 9 Yin he achieved. 9 Yin doesn't guarantee a quick victory, but it sure will allow you win eventually (in the given context).


Ultimately, theoretically 9 Yin is slightly superior to QKDNY by the virtue that it represents the epitome of Chinese martial arts which was supposed to be slightly above the epitome of the Persians, QKDNY.

[Ken Cheng]

1. Before DGSD, Ming's leader was probably very famous. This leader 方腊 during the North Song times was “四大寇”之一，和宋江、王庆、田虎等人齐名.
During ROCH times was emperor Song Li Zhong. And the leader was 张三枪 at that time. The other two noticeable leaders of South Song was 王宗石 and 余五婆.

Hmmm. Sounds like the Ming Cult should have had some presence in wulin during the time of DGSD, LOCH, and ROCH, but there was no mention of them. It's difficult to believe that an organization of the Ming Cult's caliber would not have had encounters with the big shots of the DGSD, LOCH, and ROCH eras. There were several Heroes Conferences during those times; I wonder if any Ming Cult members attended any of them.

[owbjhx]

1. Before DGSD, Ming's leader was probably very famous. This leader 方腊 during the North Song times was “四大寇”之一，和宋江、王庆、田虎等人齐名.

Some more info on this guy Fang La, who Shuobude claimed in HSDS was a Ming leader. In 'Outlaws of the Marsh', which is the great big granddaddy of wuxia fiction as we know it, Fang La was a powerful bandit leader of the south, and subduing him was the toughest task faced by the novel's hero, Song Jiang.

Ironically, although Wong Seung himself never got the opportunity to use the 9 Yum Jen Ging against members of the Ming Cult, some 200 years later, a portion (the 9 Yum White Bone Claws) of his martial arts manual would indeed be used against a Ming Cult leader (Cheung Mo Gei).

There's an irony behind that irony. Notably, one of Song Jiang's least distinguished lieutenants - a certain Guo Sheng - died in the campaign to capture Fang La. This Guo Sheng was of the course the great big granddaddy of our very own Guo Jing. So you could perhaps say there's some ancient, forgotten residual enmity between the Guo family line and the Ming Cult. In hiding a copy of 9 Yin inside the Heavenly Sword, GJ could be said to have unwittingly vented this enmity; both the sword and the scripture ended up being used against the Ming Cult.

1. What was the Ming Cult doing before and during the era of DGSD?

According to Shuobude in HSDS, the Cult entered China in Tang times (i.e. 618 - 907 AD). It was originally known as the "Xian Cult". Many characters in HSDS unsympathetic to the Cult refer to it as the "Mo Cult" - "Mo" as in "demonic" or "monstrously evil", a reference to "Moni" (the Chinese transliteration of Mani, of Manichaeism fame) - which was a name originally promulgated by the government, annoyed by the Cult's long history of active opposition to the tyranny of the court.

The cult had apparently gone underground during the decades after its near destruction at Wong Seung's hands, but was it even marginally involved in wulin at the time?

I'm sure it had some involvement, although I imagine the Cult probably kept to itself whenever it felt weak; in HSDS, the secretive behaviour of Cult members (due to centuries of suspicion and persecution) is remarked upon. Being headquartered in the extreme west-ness of the Kunlun Mountains perhaps also explains the absence of the Cult in the plots of LOCH & ROCH, which were mostly set in eastern China.

[Ken Cheng]

There's an irony behind that irony. Notably, one of Song Jiang's least distinguished lieutenants - a certain Guo Sheng - died in the campaign to capture Fang La. This Guo Sheng was of the course the great big granddaddy of our very own Guo Jing. So you could perhaps say there's some ancient, forgotten residual enmity between the Guo family line and the Ming Cult. In hiding a copy of 9 Yin inside the Heavenly Sword, GJ could be said to have unwittingly vented this enmity; both the sword and the scripture ended up being used against the Ming Cult.

How about some irony behind irony behind irony?

The Gwok Family and the Ming Cult might have been at odds, but in the end, they had the same goal: driving the Mongols out of China. It was the associates of the Ming Cult that finally succeeded in the goal that Gwok Jing and his heirs could not accomplish.

Being headquartered in the extreme west-ness of the Kunlun Mountains perhaps also explains the absence of the Cult in the plots of LOCH & ROCH, which were mostly set in eastern China.

Interestingly, the Ming Cult's western location might have put them at odds with West Poison Au Yeung Fung during the LOCH era. I even wonder if it's possible that Au Yeung Fung was a cult member.

Furthermore, Gwok Jing led the Mongol forces during their invasion of Samarkand and the western regions. It's possible that Gwok Jing's Mongol troops ran into Ming Cult warriors along the way.

[kyss of the sword]

ming cult was established at the westren regions, during huang shang's time, they suffered a great defeat and were supressed by the government and had to go under ground. during the times of LOCH and ROCH, the cult would have been caught between the jins from the north and the song government and weren't able to resurface. only after the mongolians conquared the central plains and the western regions were relativly clam could they build up their power. at that time martial arts in pre-HSDS era had a resurgence but since the yuan government would have taken action against anyone defing them, most would have to flee, several went to the west and joined ming jiao as it defied the government. this resulted in ming jiao rising again. plus they had a exceptional leader who built up their cult in yang dingtian, some fifty yrs after ROCH. the previous leaders weren't of his calibre. the ming jiao leader at the end of ROCH was killed by four elders of the begger sect, probably when yeluqi was leader. all the talented people at that time were more likely to join guo jing and huang rong to protect the song nation.

[Ken Cheng]

the ming jiao leader at the end of ROCH was killed by four elders of the begger sect, probably when yeluqi was leader. all the talented people at that time were more likely to join guo jing and huang rong to protect the song nation.

More unwitting conflict between the Gwok Family and the Ming Cult. Who thought that the two would have so much bad blood between them?

[K2Grey]

And Mie Jue Shi Tai who was the grandstudent of Guo Xiang was heavily against the Ming Cult. She wielded the Heaven Sword which was made by or on the behalf of Guo Jing and Huang Rong. That is a long lasting feud.

[Extremer88]

Did the Kunlun Sect people knew the existence of Ming Sect? They were living together in Kunlun Mountians.

Have you all read Lav's article on Ming Cult?

Ming Cult originates from Persia, it entered Central Plains during the Tang Dynasty in 694 AD under Wu Zetian. ZWJ was the 34th leader. Probably around 1368, Ming Cult perished. Between 694 and 1368 - a total of 674 years.

674 divide 34 = 19 years. Each leader reign averagely 19 years.

Which means each leader was allowed only averaged 19 years to learn QKDNY - yet no one was able to reach Level 7 except ZWJ.

[Ken Cheng]

Did the Kunlun Sect people knew the existence of Ming Sect? They were living together in Kunlun Mountians.

Yes. Kunlun Sect leader Ho Tai Chung became the first wulin big shot of his generation to run afoul of the Ming Cult when he fought Yeung Siu in the Kunlun Mountains (during the occassion when 15-year old Cheung Mo Gei took little Yeung But Fui to find her father). Later, Ho Tai Chung was among the first to rally and incite the other orthodox sects into the allied assault on Gwong Ming Peak.

[Whsie]

Assuming each was 19 years, the 8th generation leader would lead from 846-865 which is Tang Xuan zhong (1st sound, so not the Kai Yuan times, it's the decline times). 阳教主能于瞬息间变脸三次，那是练到第四层了。他曾说，本教历代众位教主之中，第八代钟教主武功最高，据说 能将‘乾坤大挪移’神功练到第五层，但便在练成的当天，走火入魔身亡，自此之后，从未有人练到 过第四层。”
Well, it looked like 8th generation was able to reach 5th level..... until he died the same day of fire deviation.

[Whsie]

I also made an interesting noticement just not long ago. Of course this quote does not exist in the 3rd edition, but it was in the 2nd edition. 张无忌初时略觉诧异，又看了数十招，当即领悟，成昆武功之强几已不输于渡厄、渡难等三僧，I don't remember why it's eliminated in the 3rd edition. But in 2nd edition, Cheng Kwun = to one Du monk
But if that was true and what Cheng Kwun said here: 圆真森然道：“当年阳顶天武功高出我甚多，别说当年，只怕现下我仍然及不上他当年的功力……” Cheng Kwun says that even now he can't be the Yangdintian years ago. This still exists in new edition.
.....at least in the 2nd edition, Yangdintian is still stronger than one of the Du monks one on one. Naturally 3 on 1 or highly likely even 2 on 1, Yangdintian would lose.

[Black Night Sea]

Some more info on this guy Fang La, who Shuobude claimed in HSDS was a Ming leader.

According to Deng Jinlin, the idea of Fang La being the leader of Ming Cult was no more than a fabrication by the author himself. I don't know how much truth there is to this but other novels (from what I've seen) did declare that Fang La was a cult leader. Nonetheless, the fact does remain however that Fang La was indeed influenced by the Ming Cult (original name is Mani Sect named after its creator: Mani) for his peasant war goals.

In 'Outlaws of the Marsh', which is the great big granddaddy of wuxia fiction as we know it,

Yep, 'Water Margin' cannot be denied as one of the great classic Chinese literature stories out there. But it can sometimes be painful to read when you want to understand certain vocab given the classical Chinese form it’s been printed in. You'd have to turn back and forth to the translation page every time you come across a word/term you don’t have a clue on.

[Whsie]

by Water Margin do you mean Sui Hu zang?

[Black Night Sea]

by Water Margin do you mean Sui Hu zang?

Yes. The proper pinyin should be spelt as Shui Hu Zhuan.

[Laviathan]

Have you all read Lav's article on Ming Cult?

Thanks for mentioning my article. It has been a while, and I think most people forgot about it.

Ming Cult originates from Persia, it entered Central Plains during the Tang Dynasty in 694 AD under Wu Zetian. ZWJ was the 34th leader. Probably around 1368, Ming Cult perished. Between 694 and 1368 - a total of 674 years.

674 divide 34 = 19 years. Each leader reign averagely 19 years.

Which means each leader was allowed only averaged 19 years to learn QKDNY - yet no one was able to reach Level 7 except ZWJ.

Manichaeism was officially introduced in the year 694, but like most religions it should have been popular amongst the common population before being presented to court. I recently finished a research paper at university about the relations between Manichaeism and Taoism in China, and it is possible that Manichaeism was already known in the western parts of China around 550.

Also, we don't know when the organisational structure of the Chinese Ming Cult was established. Maybe the position of a Grand Hierarch (Leader) was created long after Manichaeism entered China.

[minggaow_tvb]

it would really have been cool if the Ming Cult was part of the DGSD novel...the plot would be more complicated and interesting!