Sweeper Monk v XF/XZ/DY/GJ/YG/ZWJ

[R!chard]

By the second tap, dont you think the others would be aware and all powered up?

MRB was using a perfect defence stance. What exactly is powering up? Getting angry and become the Hulk ? XYS was aware of what happened to MRB...look at the result.....

The only way is to let DY suck the rest of the greats + XZ + ZWJ dry. I still can't see them winning but at least there is some hope 1 on 1 (with everyone else's internal) than having 8 ants vs an elephant.....

[PJ]

Sweeper Monk had the advantage of attacking his targets FIRST. What would he do when facing the combined assault of Six Meridian Sword, Life-Death Talisman, 36 Dragon Subduing Palms (Guo Jing + Xiao Feng), Sad Palm, and 9 Yang? Not to mention, I think Xuzhu alone has more internal energy than the Sweeper Monk (unless we think that Sweeper Monk > 3 Xiaoyao Elders).

[R!chard]

Sweeper Monk had the advantage of attacking his targets FIRST. What would he do when facing the combined assault of Six Meridian Sword, Life-Death Talisman, 36 Dragon Subduing Palms (Guo Jing + Xiao Feng), Sad Palm, and 9 Yang? Not to mention, I think Xuzhu alone has more internal energy than the Sweeper Monk (unless we think that Sweeper Monk > 3 Xiaoyao Elders).

Enlightened > all

Thats the message JR was trying to get across. Thus in any scenario, SM won't and can't lose...

[CC]

If JY had not inserted that part about XF managing to hit and injure SM while SM had his attention partly on XYS, then I would vote SM as the winner purely due to his 'tap' power.

But since he has proven to be not 100% invincible, possibly when he 'taps' his opponent, it is like Dagger Li releasing his dagger. He must put 100% concentration in it if he is attacking some elite like MRB/XYS. So against that horde of cheesy fighters, he should go down.

[PJ]

Enlightened > all

Thats the message JR was trying to get across.

You are taking the message out of context. Jin Yong is not trying to say that enlightenment is sufficient to take on the entire martial world. He is trying to say that enlightenment is better than nonenlightenment. But this should not be taken out of context.

Reverend Kongjian of HSDS was extremely enlightened. Do you think that he can defeat the extremely nonelightened Golden Wheel Monk + Ouyang Feng? Certainly not.

[R!chard]

SM said the more enlightened you are, the stronger you will be (with shaolin's techiniques)

He also said that the extremely enlightened no longer bothered to learn those 'lethal' skills once they become enlightened....

Of course, it doesn't mean any random Joe can be a god but do you think JY portrayed SM to lose in any condition? What would that say about enlighenment when JY tried to buff it all up like that?

[PJ]

SM said the more enlightened you are, the stronger you will be (with shaolin's techiniques)

If you take the quotes in the novel very literally: Jin Yong also said that no matter how high your internal energy, you will be under the mercy of the exquisite swordplay of Dugu Nine Swords. So, this literally means that Sweeper Monk, Xuzhu, Dongfang Bubai, Shi Potian, etc would all lose out to Dugu Nine Swords/. Do you really believe this?

He also said that the extremely enlightened no longer bothered to learn those 'lethal' skills once they become enlightened....

I think what he said was this: if you learn lethal techniques then by nature you are hardly enlightened since you are learning to hurt people; while if you learn to become enlightened (to be benevolent to people) then you don't want to learn lethal techniques since they contradict each other's purpose. So, this creates a problem.

do you think JY portrayed SM to lose in any condition?

If a guy has twice as much internal energy and 4 times more deadly techniques, then of course Sweeper Monk is going to die. That's just standard logic. Sweeper Monk has limits as seen in the novel. If somebody can exceeds those limits greatly then he is going to defeat the Sweeper Monk.

What would that say about enlighenment when JY tried to buff it all up like that?

I don't know, perhaps that "dao gao yi chi, mo gao yi zhang?" or perhaps "yi shan geng you yi shan gao." Roughly: theories are just theories, they are not absolute truths. What Sweeper Monk uttered is a theory. 2 theories can be said to overcome each other, so which one is true? In ROCH Jin Yong said that "no matter how good your swordplay, you will be under the mercy of the powerful internal energy." In SPW the same author said that "n o matter how powerful your internal energy, you will be under the mercy of the exquisite swordplay." Those 2 theories completely contradict each other. Neither one is absolutely true. In the end theories are just theories that may or may not hold in practice.

[ChronoReverse]

2 theories can be said to overcome each other, so which one is true? In ROCH Jin Yong said that "no matter how good your swordplay, you will be under the mercy of the powerful internal energy." In SPW the same author said that "n o matter how powerful your internal energy, you will be under the mercy of the exquisite swordplay." Those 2 theories completely contradict each other. Neither one is absolutely true. In the end theories are just theories that may or may not hold in practice.

That's right. I personally take the idea that FCY put forth when LHC asked what happens when two formless masters encounter each other:
the one who is stronger/smarter/quicker (basically better) will win.

There simply is a point where theory ends and action begins.




Interestingly enough, there is a way SM can win and fairly easily too. He could run. This is because the Greats do not have the same speed and SM is certainly able to defeat any of the Greats save XZ extremely quickly. Running will draw them out into a line and he'd be able to crush them individually. An alternative is to use terrain to force the Greats to come at him in clusters of no more than 2.

Basically this fight will be determined by who's the aggressor. The aggressor can't win in this scenario. If the Greats are attacking SM, then it wouldn't be as difficult to spread them out. If SM is attacking the Greats, the Greats can overpower him as a group (especially since SM isn't invulnerable). If they can get into a formation then they would overpower him even quicker.

This is in accordance to the primary 9 Yang theory.



There is also an alternate possibility using 9 Yin style philosophy.

Whoever attacks first wins. Note that this isn't necessarily the same as being the aggressor. If one side can get in the jump on the other, they'll certainly carry the momentum. If SM attacked first, he'd instantly take 2 people out of the fight (before anyone can move); by the time the Greats start to attack, SM would've taken out another two. With only three left to take on Sweeps, even the XZ, DY and XF team might lose (probably not easily).

Alternatively, since we know SM isn't invulnerable, a sudden strike from four sides by the "normal" Greats (XF, GJ, ZWJ, YG) will distract SM long enough for DY and XZ to get their shots in. If SM can take injury from a single XF (albeit not fully defending), even if he fully defends the four, XZ and DY's strikes will certainly severely injure him (I'd say sliced and then crushed).

[R!chard]

XR18Z is portrayed by JR to be the strongest attack there is. If that can't even seriously hurt SM with his shield down, I don't think anything can get through...

Please recall that in version 1 and 2, SM remakred to XF's XR18Z as the no 1 in the world. The only reason its changed in third edition is because someone as enlightened as SM wouldn't really say something like that. I mean, it really mitigates his enlightenment if he starts to rank techniques

[ChronoReverse]

You really don't get it do you? So it's the strongest technique, fine. But it's power still depends on the user.

18-year-old GJ using XL18P is going to be far weaker than XZ simple flailing wildly. So what if GJ was using the greatest palm technique. Sure, it'd make him far more powerful than if GJ was flailing, but that sure won't make up the sheer difference in power.

There are more factors than just technique.

[R!chard]

You really don't get it do you? So it's the strongest technique, fine. But it's power still depends on the user.

18-year-old GJ using XL18P is going to be far weaker than XZ simple flailing wildly. So what if GJ was using the greatest palm technique. Sure, it'd make him far more powerful than if GJ was flailing, but that sure won't make up the sheer difference in power.

There are more factors than just technique.

I see you really get it .

Just because XZ has great internal doesn't mean he knows how to use it.....

People might not be able to hurt XZ but that doesn't mean he can hurt others either. If XZ really have such killer moves, why can't he beat JMZ in a few strokes?

[ChronoReverse]

So you've proven you haven't even properly watched an adaptation.

Even in the adaptations XZ had mastered and could freely utilize his internal energy at the end. At the very least he could use TS6YP and blast.

[R!chard]

So you've proven you haven't even watched an adaptation.

Even in the adaptations XZ had mastered and could freely utilize his internal energy at the end. At the very least he could use TS6YP and blast.

And?

"Unexpectedly, Siau Hong suddenly moved both of his palms in a unison and at the same time he attacked both of his sworn brothers. Consequently, Hi Tiok and Toan Ki were shocked, as they could see that the impact of Siau Hong's palm strikes were so powerful as if it could split the mountains, not to mention the attack was hard to defend against. Forcedfully, they had to utilitize their hands to counter attack. Then the sound of "Baaaammmmmmmmmm -Booommmmmmmmmm" was heard twice, four palms met each other and caused a strong forceful wind."

[CC]

If XZ really have such killer moves, why can't he beat JMZ in a few strokes?

Technically, even in his inexperienced state, he could. In 1 stroke (once he dumped the shaolin techniques and used the XYP arts) he locked down JMZ's arm. But he was still an inexperienced klutz at that point so he didn't capitalise on it and he did not want to kill or hurt JMZ anyway.

[ChronoReverse]

And?

"Unexpectedly, Siau Hong suddenly moved both of his palms in a unison and at the same time he attacked both of his sworn brothers. Consequently, Hi Tiok and Toan Ki were shocked, as they could see that the impact of Siau Hong's palm strikes were so powerful as if it could split the mountains, not to mention the attack was hard to defend against. Forcedfully, they had to utilitize their hands to counter attack. Then the sound of "Baaaammmmmmmmmm -Booommmmmmmmmm" was heard twice, four palms met each other and caused a strong forceful wind."

So what are you saying? That DY and XZ can block XF's attacks?

[R!chard]

So what are you saying? That DY and XZ can block XF's attacks?

That it takes much effort to block XF's attack. And they know it would injure them greatly if they took it without any countering....

And that is only with 1 palm....

SM took XF's attack at full strength (both hands) and came out alright. He broke some ribs but he could still fly around and stuff, seems perfectly fine to me...

[ChronoReverse]

Eh? He broke a few ribs. That's a quite a bit more damage than "laughing with XF" after blocking a blow.

[R!chard]

Eh? He broke a few ribs. That's a quite a bit more damage than "laughing with XF" after blocking a blow.

After struggling to BLOCK a single handed attack.....

You think SM's shield can't repel a 1 handed XR18Z without much effort?

[ChronoReverse]

Wait. DY and XZ had to block the tremendous force. How were they "struggling"?


Besides, the point was that SM could be hurt. However, SM could also take out a XF level fighter in a blink of the eye.

[R!chard]

Wait. DY and XZ had to block the tremendous force. How were they "struggling"?


Besides, the point was that SM could be hurt. However, SM could also take out a XF level fighter in a blink of the eye.

SM might be hurt, I can give you that one thus it poves he is not invincible, which I can also understand.

As for the struggling part, refer to the other thread since we are arguing the same point on both.