Is there any GREAT that would defend Xiangyang City better than Guo Jing?

[Candide]

um this is a discussion forum, insulting is a little bit out of the area. no one appreciate that. He probably care less if u got sent to a mental institution after reading the replies. so if it's ok, just drop the insults. you can have your opinion but insulting (even though it's just the internet) is a little too hash IMO.

Sorry what makes you think I was referring to Ren Ying Ying the poster (and that's likely to be a she)?

Oh, come on. Be a good sport. If there ever were a thread just begging for a Candide response, it's this one.

This one is too easy and you guys have already had too many shots. Like all other women know, sometimes I'm just not in the mood.

And guerilla tactics is never the first solution because the pissed off invaders will vent their anger on the innocent civilians.

Guo Jing knew this very well as he observed it firsthand in the Mongolian army.

[R!chard]

Just want to add that GJ's personality is perfect to defend XY. I mean, who else is patient enough to hold onto it for decades?

And oh OT: Candide, is your kitty ran over by a car? I mean, it certainly don't look healthy to me...

[Candide]

but besides that, studying the same thing? i remember Yue Fei's manual (i would assume it's like an analogy of being 9 yin in the art of war world) being uniquely to GJ's family, ZWJ, and whoever else he gave it to. certainly not the mongols or whatever "barbarian" tribes GJ had to fight against.

Yue Fei's manual isn't superior to Sun Tzu's Art of War which everyone knew about and could easily find a copy. The manual is just a manual. It's how you use it that counts. Same with martial arts. Nearly every half decent fighter could perform Founding Emperor's Long Fist to perfection but look how XF did it.

[warlock110]

Sorry what makes you think I was referring to Ren Ying Ying the poster (and that's likely to be a she)?



This one is too easy and you guys have already had too many shots. Like all other women know, sometimes I'm just not in the mood.



Guo Jing knew this very well as he observed it firsthand in the Mongolian army.

i think because you quoted ying ying... but if you wasn't refering to ying ying, does it matter? it was a personal attack and it really doesn't matter where u pointed it to.

again, i don't want to get into personal stuff over forum discussion (or arguements)... i just thought that it probably would keep the forum a little cleaner cuzz i'm sure not a whole lot of people wants to read personal attack (well maybe some will enjoy it lol)

[Ren Ying Ying]

right...and that is why GJ almost lost his life to finding the manual? and also why he decided to put this manual into the dragon sabre/heavely sword. why would he even bother putting that manual in if it's just as effective as the others

yes, modern world they may be the same. just like you can learn "tai chi" in any old place. but i dunno, i have a feeling that in his story, JY gives a little more credit to yue fei's manual

[warlock110]

right...and that is why GJ almost lost his life to finding the manual? and also why he decided to put this manual into the dragon sabre/heavely sword. why would he even bother putting that manual in if it's just as effective as the others

yes, modern world they may be the same. just like you can learn "tai chi" in any old place. but i dunno, i have a feeling that in his story, JY gives a little more credit to yue fei's manual

well, it's how fictions are... some of it aren't exactly true to the real world...

[ChronoReverse]

3) my alternative might not be the solution (hell i don't know enough about military tactics or china history for that matter).. but the fact of the matter is the result shows that GJ lost. so that means there are alternatives out there that wilil produce better result = what GJ did was not correct. And you can't say that there's NEVER a better tactic, remember everything is flexable.

I'm only going to address the most ridiculous comment. The rest of your comments are also quite wrong but I tired of disputing with someone who doesn't think.


Do you really believe that because a solution failed, it's not longer the best possible solution? Do you really believe that there's always a way that will work?

Get real, GJ picked the solution that lasted the longest time. Any other solution ISN'T because it fails to protect the people. Period.

[R!chard]

I would say YF's manual is the best manual out there but it is not enough alone, to do anything miraculous.....

[Ken Cheng]

1) is credibility something to die for?

It is if you're going to lead people. How is Gwok Jing going to "lead" this post-surrender resistance when he has no credibility? Would you follow a leader known for running away and leaving behind his followers when the situation turns against him? Or is Gwok Jing supposed to fight the entire Mongol army personally with his martial arts skills?

after what he did all those years (say he bail after a few years when the situation turns really bad) if the people that's he risks his life protecting won't trust in him, is it worth it to save these people?

Yes, because they were human beings who had a right to live. Gwok Jing didn't sit around judging the people he was protecting to see if they were morally fit to be saved by him. He saved ALL of them because they were HUMAN. That's all the reason he needed.

There are people like GJ who are set stones on credibility/values, and there are people like Yeung Gor who does what's right and can careless about what other thinks of him... just the matter of different types of people... IMO Yeung Gor is probably a better hero (or a better person in general, because he's more flexable to every situation)

Yeung Gor: "I know that the Mongols are slaughtering and enslaving Chinese people by the thousands, maybe even millions. Maybe I'll help them, sure. But not if it means sacrificing my happiness with Little Dragon Girl! That's where I draw the line."

Sure. Much better hero that Yeung Gor. Any day.

2) the anology doesn't applies (ever watch home alone?) hehe, i know it's a little farfetch, but gorella tactics have been known to work... you said it yourself that nothing is set in stone, so you can't say that those riots wont' work (we'll never know if it will or it won't)

Nothing is set in stone, but you've got to do a reality check. It's not set in stone that I won't become as wealthy as Bill Gates someday. It it *likely*? HELL, no. And if I'm counting on it just because it *can* happen, I'm not being very realistic.

Guerilla tactics work when the "government" forces aren't very strong and well-organized themselves...that's why they worked towards the end of the Yuan Dynasty. Conditions weren't that favorable to the Chinese in the final years of the Sung.

The French Revolution succeeded in 1792. Why didn't it succeed thirty years earlier? Because the military/government was still too strong.

The Second Russian Revolution succeeded in 1991. Why didn't the Russian people rebel against the Soviet government in 1961? Because in 1961, the Soviet army had not become dispirited and weakened as it had by 1991.

3) my alternative might not be the solution (hell i don't know enough about military tactics or china history for that matter).. but the fact of the matter is the result shows that GJ lost. so that means there are alternatives out there that wilil produce better result = what GJ did was not correct.

"Will." You've stated it, but you haven't proven it. Just saying it isn't enough. You need to supply persuasive reasons. It isn't so just because you say so.

And you can't say that there's NEVER a better tactic, remember everything is flexable.

First of all, I haven't said "there's never a better tactic." I've shown that under the circumstances of the time, Gwok Jing went for the one viable option available to him. As it turned out, it wasn't good enough. The tides of history were just set too far against the Chinese at that moment in time. Nevertheless, we don't admire heroes for surrendering to the inevitable. We admire them because they are willing to take on seemingly insurmountable odds and sometimes, *sometimes* prevail. Without this concept, humanity would never have made it out of the caves.

4) Genghis Khan of all the people follows the mongolian style of picking leaders. meaning the best fighter = good leader.

If that were Genghis' criteria for choosing generals in his forces, he would not have become the conqueror of the largest land empire the world has ever known.

Let's talk a little history: Genghis had four sons whom he could have named his successor: Jochi, Ogodei, Chagahatai, and Tolui. Jochi and Chagahatai were Genghis' most aggressive and strategically gifted sons. Tolui was the son whom Genghis loved the most. Who did Genghis pick as his successor as Great Khan of the Mongol Empire? Ogodei. Why Ogodei? Because Ogodei had a very fair, balanced, equanimous personality and was the most well-liked by the Mongol people. Ogodei's brothers were more militarily gifted than he was, and probably better combatants as well, but Genghis chose Ogodei because he was the most loved, respected, and trusted of the Mongol princes. It was a good call. Ogodei proved to be an excellent successor to Genghis.

This in fact isn't true as hisotry shows warfare depends more on tactic more than powers. w/e that made the mongolian sucess i do not know, but i know it wasn't the way they choose their generals.

It was, partially. More than anything, it was the Mongols' canniness in exploiting the talents of the people they conquered. Instrumental in the Mongols' conquest of China were tacticians, engineers, and other assorted people of talent from all over the Mongol Empire (which included Persians, Arabs, Khitans, Juchens, and yes, traitorous Han Chinese) who were willing to apply their skills in service to the Mongols for the right price.

[Ken Cheng]

I would say YF's manual is the best manual out there but it is not enough alone, to do anything miraculous.....

Books offer great knowledge, but it's still up to people to put that knowledge into action.

[Candide]

Books offer great knowledge, but it's still up to people to put that knowledge into action.

That's essentially it. Lu Huojiao and another Beggar Clan elder by the way also learnt the same manual that Guo Jing did (as they were middle men bringing GJ's questions to HR and HR's explanations back to GJ) yet they didn't understand much of it if at all.

It's the same with martial arts. The martial arts on the wall at Xixia Palace or Divine Eagle Palace up on Tianshan mountain were right up there as the best in JY's universe, yet most people couldn't practice or even look at them, or they would die. You can give every pleb a copy of 6MSJ, DG9J, 9 Yin, 9 Yang etc. and tell them to learn it for 10 years but most still wouldn't be able to fight their way out of a paperbag afterwards.

[R!chard]

Books offer great knowledge, but it's still up to people to put that knowledge into action.

^ lol, you got my point across

Damn you and your superior command of english

[Ren Ying Ying]

That's essentially it. Lu Huojiao and another Beggar Clan elder by the way also learnt the same manual that Guo Jing did (as they were middle men bringing GJ's questions to HR and HR's explanations back to GJ) yet they didn't understand much of it if at all.

It's the same with martial arts. The martial arts on the wall at Xixia Palace or Divine Eagle Palace up on Tianshan mountain were right up there as the best in JY's universe, yet most people couldn't practice or even look at them, or they would die. You can give every pleb a copy of 6MSJ, DG9J, 9 Yin, 9 Yang etc. and tell them to learn it for 10 years but most still wouldn't be able to fight their way out of a paperbag afterwards.

lu youjiao never actually "learned" the manual. GJ only asked him certain phrases. that is why, when lu youjiao handed gj the paper for directions to stop genghis's two sons to stop fighting, GJ grew extremely suspicious (even more so than when he saw the "mystery man" in the tent)

without HR explaining things to GJ, like hell he would comprehend the manual by himself. he couldn't read half the words.

[Ken Cheng]

without HR explaining things to GJ, like hell he would comprehend the manual by himself. he couldn't read half the words.

Yeah, but that's OK. Even the most hardcore Gwok Jing worshipper wouldn't have you believe that Gwok Jing was some kind of tactical prodigy who could create strategies that would outmaneuver Wong Yung, Chugwok Leung, Genghis Khan, Ngok Fei, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Napoleon combined. The most we're trying to say is that he isn't the complete dunce that many try to make him out to be.

[warlock110]

i guess the final verdict for this is whether the so call "hero" wanted to take the chance... for me, my opinion is YES. take the chance, even if it's small. to others they probably think it's better to prolong and take that final result. It's a gamble really, and for some people they like to take the gamble while other people doesn't. it's just different personality.

Yeung Gor knows the enemy and he knows himself. he's not much of a hero but he never wanted to be one. but one thing is for sure he'll get the job done regardless of the consequences. I think that's the main attribute of him as a general. but he never got any support because of his unothodox ways of doing things. so he wouldn't have been a good replacement anyways.

[ChronoReverse]

THERE IS NO CHANCE.

Do you not get it? If you leave XY, people WILL DIE.


Who are you to say who should die and who shouldn't? Heroes don't get to pick and choose.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Yeah, but that's OK. Even the most hardcore Gwok Jing worshipper wouldn't have you believe that Gwok Jing was some kind of tactical prodigy who could create strategies that would outmaneuver Wong Yung, Chugwok Leung, Genghis Khan, Ngok Fei, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Napoleon combined. The most we're trying to say is that he isn't the complete dunce that many try to make him out to be.

of course GJ is not a complete dunce....he's slow but not retarded (unlike how Li Yapeng portrays him). but honestly, i think as much as there are people who "down play" GJ, there are more people who give him TOO MUCH credit.

[Ken Cheng]

i guess the final verdict for this is whether the so call "hero" wanted to take the chance... for me, my opinion is YES. take the chance, even if it's small. to others they probably think it's better to prolong and take that final result. It's a gamble really, and for some people they like to take the gamble while other people doesn't. it's just different personality.

Yeung Gor knows the enemy and he knows himself. he's not much of a hero but he never wanted to be one. but one thing is for sure he'll get the job done regardless of the consequences. I think that's the main attribute of him as a general. but he never got any support because of his unothodox ways of doing things. so he wouldn't have been a good replacement anyways.

Yeung Gor's social circle was small. He liked to be intimate with just a few people rather than sharing camaraderie with large numbers of people. For that reason, he is not an ideal candidate as a leader. That's no knock on him - just a part of his personality that even he would readily admit to.

Yeung Gor's solitary nature makes him more effective as a roving, independent agent than as a frontlines leader such as Gwok Jing. Undercover stuff...covert operations. Yeung Gor is well-suited for those methods...get in and assassinate the enemy leader (which worked once, at least).

[Candide]

of course GJ is not a complete dunce....he's slow but not retarded (unlike how Li Yapeng portrays him). but honestly, i think as much as there are people who "down play" GJ, there are more people who give him TOO MUCH credit.

Someone who could master 9 Yin, HL18Z and Yue Fei manual is definitely not dumb. GJ is definitely not given enough credit for his achievements. There have been plenty of threads like this where people like you put his own achievements down to "oh he got someone else to teach him". May I ask: have any of you geniuses learnt everything by yourself and what have you achieved so far?

Young GJ in LOCH may appear naive and not smart in dealing with people but that is expected because he grew up in a different country with different customs and traditions. Have you ever travelled overseas and stayed in a country with a very different culture? I hope nobody calls you dumb then. Towards the end of LOCH, he had matured a lot and some of the things he said (especially that conversation he had with Genghis Khan) could only be regarded as wise. He was wise way beyond his years. Even Qiu Chuji was very pleasantly surprised. In ROCH, the older, mature GJ was anything but dumb. Even his enemies, the Mongolians, respected him as a great tactician, warrior and patriot.

If that's dumb or slow, then I wanna be one too.

Of course Guo Jing isn't as fast as the geniuses like Huang Rong, LHC etc. in learning martial arts but he was still far better than the average martial artist.

[Extremer88]

um this is a discussion forum, insulting is a little bit out of the area. no one appreciate that. He probably care less if u got sent to a mental institution after reading the replies. so if it's ok, just drop the insults. you can have your opinion but insulting (even though it's just the internet) is a little too hash IMO.

Yes, yes. Please don't get my threads closed again.