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Thread: Is there any GREAT that would defend Xiangyang City better than Guo Jing?

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    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    Post Is there any GREAT that would defend Xiangyang City better than Guo Jing?

    Is there any GREAT that would defend Xiangyang City better than Guo Jing?

    Maybe WCY? He teaches the Xianyang soldiers the Big Dipper Formation.

    He was formely a general fighting against the Jin Empire.
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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    It probably wouldn't make much difference. Seung Yeung was lost not because the Chinese didn't have enough brilliant fighters or brilliant tacticians, but because they were getting almost zero support from the Sung government in Lin-An. One lone fortress city with its garrison of troops and wulin warriors against the Mongol hordes. They were very fortunate to have held out for as long as they did (decades), but eventually, something had to give.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    I think WCY would be just as good as GJ but better, I don't think so. Other Greats either don't have the military talent or dedication to do that job.
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    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    Is WCY a much better tatician in war combat than GJ?
    ..ext88

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    No he isn't.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

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    Senior Member SkineePanda's Avatar
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    What if he had Yue Fei's manual? I'm sure he would've done far better. Plus the fact he skimmed through 9 Yin and understood its essence, he could've done the same with WuMu.

    Plus Guo Jing never went on a offensive against the Mongols, he was always defending. WCY on the otherhand organized an entire campaign to fight the Jin on their own ground. He had no success, but then he had neither the Song's support or Yue Fei's manual. He was pretty much on his own, but he was still a threat to the point that the Jin emperor sent assassins to kill him.
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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Exactly. WCY have led an army before too (albeit unsuccessful).

    HYS should be good with his knowledge in formations and changes. But too queer to be a good leader.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    The Mongolians were far better than the Jin. The way I see it:

    - WCY got pwned by the Jin after a few years to the point that he abandoned his army and went into seclusion bickering with his biatch everyday then became a virgin Taoist.
    - GJ got pwned by the Mongols after a few decades but died heroically with his soldiers.

    Yue Fei manual or not (you still have to learn it and apply it), GJ was better.

    Plus the fact he skimmed through 9 Yin and understood its essence, he could've done the same with WuMu.
    Maybe, but it is not certain. ZWJ could skim through any martial art manual, or just observe it, and he could understand the essence better than those who had practiced it for all their lives (in that regard, he could be as good as WCY in learning martial arts). However, he tried that with the Yue Fei manual and nearly got pwned badly by the Mongols (luckily the Ming generals saved him and Shaolin). Martial art and the art of war are different things.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Junior Member krapster's Avatar
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    Huang Yao Shi.

    He knew many formations which would confuse and trap the Mongolians.

    He is also pretty smart and if he had read the YueFei manual(GuoJing would probably allow him anyways, HYS is his father-in-law), he would probably be able to lead the troops even more effectively.

    Then, as GuoJing and HuangRong are his son-in-law and daughter respectively, they would be his vanguards.

    But as someone said, he was kinda queer, so....

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    Senior Member Demonic Swordsman's Avatar
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    yea....i dont think the soldiers would support him as much

    also GJ had excellent knowledge of Mongol tactics and thus could defend against anything they threw. I think the best would be HYS's formations with GJ's dedication and knowledge of Mongol tactics
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    WCY's army would be killed in less than 15 minutes . GJ on the other hand without soldier support from the emperor (the emperor didn't give backups, stupid emperor) was able to held the Mongols out for over a decade. Partially, it is thanks to Yue Fei's manual. Don't forget that the Mongols were the biggest empire in world history extending from East Asia to part of Europe conquering the whole entire Russia. Being able to hold out that long is quite an accomplishment that I highly doubt WCY was able to do.
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    ^ whatever he said

    Except, I will give more credit to WCY. I tip he can at least hang around for 16 minutes

    10 minutes to realize how strong the enemy is.

    2 minutes to panic

    and 3 minutes to be slaughtered

    and oh, the last minute is for him to swear his lungs out under his last breath
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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Maybe, but it is not certain. ZWJ could skim through any martial art manual, or just observe it, and he could understand the essence better than those who had practiced it for all their lives (in that regard, he could be as good as WCY in learning martial arts). However, he tried that with the Yue Fei manual and nearly got pwned badly by the Mongols (luckily the Ming generals saved him and Shaolin). Martial art and the art of war are different things.
    ah, but GJ had HR by his side. please, as if his dumb brain can comprehend thoroughly yue fei's geniusness
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 07-14-06 at 01:41 AM.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
    ah, but GJ had HR by his side. please, as if his dumb brain can comprehend thoroughly yue fei's geniusness
    Wong Yung brought the tactical knowledge; Gwok Jing brought the inspiration. It was his example that inspired all the others against fairly hopeless odds.

    But again, it was ultimately hopeless no matter who was in charge. In the 13th Century, the Mongols wanted to conquer China more than the Chinese wanted to defend it. That's what made all the difference in the world.

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    WCY's army would be killed in less than 15 minutes . GJ on the other hand without soldier support from the emperor (the emperor didn't give backups, stupid emperor) was able to held the Mongols out for over a decade. Partially, it is thanks to Yue Fei's manual. Don't forget that the Mongols were the biggest empire in world history extending from East Asia to part of Europe conquering the whole entire Russia. Being able to hold out that long is quite an accomplishment that I highly doubt WCY was able to do.
    neither did WCY get much support from the emporor. GJ at least had the city guards, the beggar clan, and heros from all over china for his support. the mongolian amry wasn't exactly one entire force either, even though it's under one name. the mongols were invading other parts of asia at the same time (hence such a big empire. or else it'll take forever to get so much land)

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
    neither did WCY get much support from the emporor. GJ at least had the city guards, the beggar clan, and heros from all over china for his support. the mongolian amry wasn't exactly one entire force either, even though it's under one name. the mongols were invading other parts of asia at the same time (hence such a big empire. or else it'll take forever to get so much land)
    Wong Chung Yeung did have the option of roving and hitting the Jin forces using guerilla tactics. He could actually afford to retreat. For Gwok Jing, that wasn't an option. His stand had to be made at Seung Yeung, and there was no option to go on the offensive against the Mongols.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
    ah, but GJ had HR by his side. please, as if his dumb brain can comprehend thoroughly yue fei's geniusness
    Yes he could. Read the novel.

    GJ at least had the city guards, the beggar clan, and heros from all over china for his support.
    Shows that he's a better leader of the people than WCY.

    Next thing you're gonna tell me is that ZYZ could drive the Mongolians out of China because a lot of people supported him, he was just lucky and wasn't any better than others.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    everytime i heard of the name GJ it just keep reminding me of a stupid character. I didn't mind that he was rather dull/stupid. he got integrity and that's what's important. But the honest truth is, he threw away everything (his love, his life, his wife's life ect...) to fight a loosing battle. Did he ever thought of his wife and the people supporting him? he went n fight for a corrupted government, in the process bringing death to everyone around him. Part of being a human is to know when to drop it, to know when to come back another day. And part of being a good human being is to be considerate/evaluate different situation. this guy being as great as he is, never consider for his wife/family. he does what he want, he does everything by brute force. Out of all the heros in JY novel, i dispite this guy. The rest of the heros are atleast smarter...

    if he didn't want to harm people, i think that the best way wouldda been to evacuate everone, and defense at the capital, this is probably the best way to draw out help from the imperial army, and putting put a better defence.... it's not a heroic tactic, but i'm sure it's gonna work better, and he ddin't have to throw his life away for NOTHING.

    The best way wouldda been that, and hitting the enemy with gorella tactics (considering the amount of people with high degree of martial arts, this should not be a problem). acomudate with the changes of climates and hitting the food source, assassinate leaders of the mongolian, it wouldda change the result of the battle.
    Last edited by warlock110; 07-15-06 at 01:05 AM.

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Then you don't even know him. It makes me wonder if you've even watched the LOCH adaptations. Even there he isn't _that_ stupid.

    Furthermore, he's defending the city to protect the people. Not for the stupid government that isn't supporting him. And you know what, the people of XY, his wife and family all believed in the same cause as him. That's why they supported him. It would be a true betrayal if he didn't do what he did.

    And it wasn't an option for him to retreat. XY was the gateway. If that fell the Mongols get in. The Mongols were experts at fighting in open areas, at least XY was a chokepoint.


    if he didn't want to harm people, i think that the best way wouldda been to evacuate everone, and defense at the capital, this is probably the best way to draw out help from the imperial army, and putting put a better defence.... it's not a heroic tactic, but i'm sure it's gonna work better, and he ddin't have to throw his life away for NOTHING.
    How dare you say that. He defended XY for FORTY years. That's an entire lifetime.

    FORTY YEARS where the rest of China could be free from the Mongols. And for your information, the rest of China fell quick after XY went down.


    The best way wouldda been that, and hitting the enemy with gorella tactics
    That's what the selfish would do. Try to get the glory for eventually driving away the Mongols at the cost of the common people. What do you think the Mongols will do? They'll just punish the common people and subjugate even worse if they were under guerilla attack.

    Plus they also had a number of strong martial artists. It wouldn't be easy to assassinate the Khan under normal circumstances.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 07-15-06 at 01:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    Then you don't even know him. It makes me wonder if you've even watched the LOCH adaptations. Even there he isn't _that_ stupid.

    Furthermore, he's defending the city to protect the people. Not for the stupid government that isn't supporting him.

    And it wasn't an option for him to retreat. XY was the gateway. If that fell the Mongols get in. The Mongols were experts at fighting in open areas, at least XY was a chokepoint.


    How dare you say that. He defended XY for FORTY years. That's an entire lifetime.

    FORTY YEARS where the rest of China could be free from the Mongols. And for your information, the rest of China fell quick after XY went down.
    40 years of war. was it worth it? the mongols got it eventually, was it worth it for boths sides? how many was killed in the process. he was fighting a loosing battle where the end is already known. why would u continues to do things when u already know u're loosing the fight? retreat and find an alternative wouldda been much better.

    if u had follow up till the 3rd story of the triology, they eventually drove the mongol out of china... with warfare while the mongol was controling the land. so it just shows that 40 years of defending the gate was a waste. couldda been alot more help doing something else.

    you do realized that if the land is not control right, where the people are not happy, riot will happen, everything happens because of the people, 1 guy will not be able to do anythign to change it. GJ failed as a leader, he had no support (he had support but it was the wrong kind)...
    Last edited by warlock110; 07-15-06 at 01:13 AM.

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