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Thread: Is "6 Meridians Sword" a sword skill or not?

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    Default Is "6 Meridians Sword" a sword skill or not?

    "6 Meridians Sword", the skills of the Duan of Dali in DGSD, is it a sword skill or not?

    Cause obviously, it doesn't require a sword...but rather shoot out chi from the fingers, so why did Jin Yong call it "6 Meridians Sword"?

    If it shoot out chi from the fingers, then wouldn't it be a better version of that "Yiyang Finger" (I think that's how it call o_o)?
    Last edited by lonelyassassin; 07-16-06 at 09:52 PM.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    The name itself sounds cool. That is the main reason why JY used it IMHO.

    To justify the name, the attacks of 6MSJ were described as 'some straight, some from the side, some curving in' so the energy shot out of the fingers are swung and thrust much like a sword. So that justifies the name somewhat.

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    i think it was call "sword" because the enegy was shot out when it hits, it creates an impact similar to getting stab by a sword (atleast that's what i think)... or simply because sword is the most popular weapon in these types of story. ... just like dragons ect... they name their moves after these popular images.

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    It's called 6MSJ because it's not a laser beam like say Canhe Finger or Yideng's Yiyang Zhi (Solitary Yang Finger), it's an actual sword chi which you can swing around like a sabre or a sword. IIRC each sword had like 10 stances for using it which presumably resembled sword stances.

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    Senior Member The Khan's Avatar
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    Think of 1 yang finger as a police pistol in that it fires one shot of chi, and 6MSJ as a gatling gun

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    Cool

    yes, the qi can actually be formed into the shape of a sword and sent out and retracted. the sword qi has cutting qualities which makes it a sword. it more commonly known as invisble sword qi since it can't be seen.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

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    I see, thank you.

    I guess the reason why I thought it was just shooting out chi like a gun rather than a sword was because of TVB 1996 adaptation and Duan Yu's poor ability (in the beginning).

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    And now for the semantics. While the energy formed is a cutting force of a certain length with the 'anchor of motion' at the hand - like a sword or sabre - it is also difficult to see, parry, and can be retracted at any time, or another meridian opened. It may even be possible to change the length and thickness of the 'swords' mid-attack.

    So in terms of motion it mirrors a sword skill - it uses a 'sword' of sorts and is concerned with making the motions of that sword cause contact with the enemy - it does not have to deal with certain limitations of a physical sword - a set length, visibility, etc. So I'd say that because it doesn't have to worry about these things that are sort of 'givens' in a set of sword stances, it's not quite a 'sword skill'.

    I imagine if you handed a sword to a 6MSJ practitioner and they wielded it as if it were one of the meridian swords, it would be a very inefficient and weak sword stance - like presenting stairs to someone who's only ever used escalators, it's a similar animal but they aren't ready for the other complications.

    Similarly if you gave a swordsman the ability to use a meridian sword, he would probably have to revise his stances so as not to waste motion and energy accounting for those limitations - so they'd be 'better' than just using the meridian swords, but not by a colossal margin (Someone who can walk up stairs AND uses an escalator - they go faster than just using one method)

    So 6MSJ is sort of a 'weapon skill' - it creates a method of offense and defense.
    I don't believe that it contains stances that capitalize on the benefits of the swords vs. real swords, but that would certainly be an avenue for improvement of the skill.

    To draw an analogy for 'why Unruly says this', Jiu Yang allows for exceptional speed without being a lightfoot technique, and it doesn't contain a footwork methodology (AFAIK), so it can be considered a 'speed skill' without being a 'lightfoot skill' - it gives you the means but not a philosophy or set of forms.

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    Senior Member Phoenix_Aquaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonelyassassin
    Cause obviously, it doesn't require a sword...but rather shoot out chi from the fingers, so why did Jin Yong call it "6 Meridians Sword"?
    Basically, this martial arts existed in the world. JY incorporated this skill into his novels, to find out about the real 6MSJ, do some research yourself, it might not be the same with the one in DGSD. Probably it's a real swordplay.

    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    IIRC each sword had like 10 stances for using it which presumably resembled sword stances.
    You remembered wrongly. The manual is a painting showing the pose, both external and internal required to perform the sword qi. I don't think it was meant to have a stance at all, just basic swordplay with the invisible sword qi at your fingertips IMO. But the power is pretty strong enough. There is more to it that meets the eye though.
    Last edited by Phoenix_Aquaris; 07-16-06 at 08:44 AM. Reason: Grammar errors.. Sheesh..

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    6MDS is a sword skill because because dispite the fact it uses purely qi instead of a sword made of metal or even wood. it utilises sword moves and executes them with 'sword qi'. since it uses 'sword qi' it is classified as a sword. while other advanced sword skills would actually require a sword in hand to for m 'sword qi', 6MDS bypasses the sword by using the finger as the base/handle of the sword and qi as the blade. but it is not a finger skill, unless you consider it a swordfinger. anyway, in wuxia it's exponents who diversify martial arts. in the hights of martial arts, all moves orignate from the same place and are no different from the any other. whether it is a palm, finger, fist, kick or headbutt. the essence is in stricking the opponent, not how the opponent is struck.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    translation excerpt orignally posted by PJ.
    after the palm display, feeling more energetic, SPT holds no sword but begins practicing the sword style of "Killing One in 10 Feet." Although holding no real sword, he is nevertheless able to render the sword stances persistently... in fact his sword stances, palm stances, internal energy, lightness stances have been unified; the styles can no longer be distinguished... No need to remember or think about the moves, he is now able to naturally translate the thousands of stances from the heart to his body movement.
    SPT here shows how one can use sword techniques with no sword. the same as what 6MDS attempts, excutes sword moves with no sword.

    translation excerpt by han solo.
    Under Murong Fu's foot, Duan Yu saw his father spit blood as Murong Fu prepared to strike him with yet another palm. In his urgency he pointed with his right forefinger at Murong Fu and yelled : "You dare to hit my Father?" In his frenzy, his inner strength naturally surged forward through his forefinger and this was the "Shang Yang Jian" stance of the "Liu Mai Shen Jian". With a 'chi' sound, Murong Fu's sleeves were cut open by the invisible sword and as the sword energy collided with his palm energy, he felt a tingling pain in his hand. Murong Fu was shocked and immediately leapt backwards, leaving Duan Yu free to stand up and point out with the little finger on his left hand, executing a 'Shao Ze Jian' at Murong Fu. Murong Fu waved his
    left arm to defend and with 2 slicing sounds, his left sleeve was cut open by the sword chi. Deng Bai Chun shouted out : "Watch out Master, its invisible sword chi! Use a weapon!" Unshealthing his sword, he spun it by the hilt and tossed it towards Murong Fu.

    Duan Yu had felt deep bitterness in his heart when he heard Wang Yu Yan cheer out as his father was injured. With inner strength flowing through, he struck out the Liu Mai Shen Jian, the six strokes of the "Shao Shang", "Shang Yang", "Zhong Chong", "Guan Chong", "Shao Chong" and "Shao Ze" Jian shot out as he thrust and sliced away. Attacking with his mind and body as one, he fought as if divinely inspired.

    This set of swordplay from Duan Yu was magnificent and grand in display, each stroke contained heaven shaking power. Murong Fu hooked and slashed but was finding it difficult to resist Duan Yu's attacks.
    duan yu's attacks are clearly refered to as sword attacks, not just the author but by other character's within the novel.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

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    6MDS is a sword skill because because dispite the fact it uses purely qi instead of a sword made of metal or even wood. it utilises sword moves and executes them with 'sword qi'. since it uses 'sword qi' it is classified as a sword.
    I did say 'semantics', didn't I? It's a nitpick. You say 'if it uses sword-like attacks and sword-shaped qi, it's a sword form'.

    And I say that a sword form is a set of motions for use with a sword, which account for certain tactical necessities to succeed in a fight. 6MSJ doesn't have to overcome some of these necessities.

    duan yu's attacks are clearly refered to as sword attacks, not just the author but by other character's within the novel.
    If I pick up a spear and hit you with it, it's a 'spear attack', but I'm not using a 'spear form'. I never said they weren't swords or sword qi, I just said that the skill itself - the creation of the meridian swords - isn't a 'sword skill' as I understand them.

    The power from 9 Yang can be used to make palm attacks, but 9 Yang isn't a palm style, right? That's how I'm looking at it.

    SPT here shows how one can use sword techniques with no sword. the same as what 6MDS attempts, excutes sword moves with no sword.
    Er, yes. The theoretical pinnacle of a sword skill is 'weapon in heart' level, after all - the understanding of how to execute the forms of the art without the need for physical tools. The tool is a crutch that can be overcome, but he's still using the forms of the sword skill, perfectly, in fact. Which are sets of motions that must account for certain things that fighting with a REAL sword has to account for. I'd wager SPT's motions don't include a stance where he sweeps the 'sword' through his own arm, for example.

    6MSJ doesn't have to worry about knicking the user because the user can turn the blade off and then back on again to complete the motion. It goes straight to the 'no sword' level of theory, but it doesn't achieve it by perfecting the sword so much as by perfecting a method of creating internal energy.

    Look at it in reverse:

    Could DY pick up a real sword and perform the motions of 6MSJ as a successful swordsman? *I* understand 6MSJ as a style that creates the swords, and then the martial skill of the user is the barometer for his success - one could perform sword stances *with* a meridian sword, but the creation of meridian swords is not in and of itself a 'sword stance'.

    Your mileage may vary, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unruly
    The theoretical pinnacle of a sword skill is 'weapon in heart' level, after all - the understanding of how to execute the forms of the art without the need for physical tools.
    No, the ultimate is not to have the sword in the heart at all.
    Last edited by CFT; 07-18-06 at 05:16 AM.

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    No, the ultimate is not to have the sword in the heart at all.
    Fair play; 'one of the penultimate pinnacles' is probably more accurate. Except that it misuses the word penultimate, and I can't think of the appropriate word, which is actual anecdotal evidence of how useful my English Major Style is. 'Preultimate'. You know what I mean.

    - Unruly

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    I believe the correct term is penultimate. If the ultimate pinnacle is to not have the sword in the heart (after first having it in the heart, of course), then the penultimate pinnacle is whatever directly precedes that stage.

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    I believe the correct term is penultimate. If the ultimate pinnacle is to not have the sword in the heart (after first having it in the heart, of course), then the penultimate pinnacle is whatever directly precedes that stage.
    Well my concern was there's quite possibly intermittent stages... I'd think that 'sword in heart' precedes 'no moves/moves in heart' precedes 'perfection/no sword, no moves', so it's sort of like the predecessor to the penultimate, depending on how you divide things. I couldn't think of a word for 'penpenultimate'

    Mind you, if 'sword in heart' and 'no moves' are equally necessary to reach perfection, and neither requires the other, I guess they're both penultimate.

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    the quote comes from sentimental swordsman, ruthless sword/flying dagger series.
    They think that 'the weapon is not in hand, but in the heart', that this is the highest level of martial arts. But the truth is that they are off by a lot." the old voice said.

    "Off by a lot?" the little voice giggled.

    "By at least a hundred and eight thousand li." the old voice replied.

    "So what then is the highest level of martial arts?" the young girl asked.

    "When the hands are empty and the heart is empty, the weapon and the self become one. If they can comprehend this much, then they won't be off by far." the old man said.

    "They won't be off by far? You mean that level isn't the highest either?" the young girl exclaimed.

    "Yes, there is still one level higher." the old man said.

    "The ultimate level of martial arts is when everything arises from nothing. There is no weapon and no self. Weapon and self are both forgotten. This is true formlessness, this is true omnipotence." the old man said explained.
    originally by unruly.
    Could DY pick up a real sword and perform the motions of 6MSJ as a successful swordsman? *I* understand 6MSJ as a style that creates the swords, and then the martial skill of the user is the barometer for his success - one could perform sword stances *with* a meridian sword, but the creation of meridian swords is not in and of itself a 'sword stance'
    yes, in the later part of the novel, he uses a sabre to cut of XF's cuffs utilising his immense inner power. 6MDS actually contains swordmoves. it's not like HYS's divine desending swordpalms. the palm strokes were created from sword moves and resemble sword moves but are actually palm moves. 6MDS is executed by the fingers and thumb but are actually sword moves, thus a sword skill. whether a sword is actually used is irrelvent becasue a sword or other blade can be used with 6MDS inner power and moves, when the practioneer is skilled enough. the important part is in the intention of the move. when 6MDS is executed, it is executed intending to be a sword move.

    orignally by unruly.
    If I pick up a spear and hit you with it, it's a 'spear attack', but I'm not using a 'spear form'. I never said they weren't swords or sword qi, I just said that the skill itself - the creation of the meridian swords - isn't a 'sword skill' as I understand them.

    The power from 9 Yang can be used to make palm attacks, but 9 Yang isn't a palm style, right? That's how I'm looking at it.
    Ah Fei had no sword in his hand.

    But that was of no importance, because he was suddenly filled with courage and confidence.

    There was a bamboo forest by the side of the road, standing where he was, he could see the courtyard of the Golden Currency Union.

    Ah Fei broke off one of the sticks of bamboo and split it down the middle into three pieces. He sharpened one end and wrapped a piece of cloth around the other end.

    His movements were swift and accurate, he didn't waste a single ounce of energy.

    His hands were very steady.

    Sun XiaoHong watched quietly by his side. She found it very strange and interesting.

    But she couldn't help but feel some doubt. She picked up the bamboo sword in her hand and it felt as light as a willow leaf.

    She couldn't help but exclaim, "Can such a sword be enough to deal with ShangGuan JinHong?"
    you can use a stick even to perform a sword move, or spear move, or sabre move. but the stick doesn't change into a sword or spear. but those are external techniques. 'sword chi' doesn't nessesarily mean the energy is in the form of a sword or sabre or knife. it could have a long reach like a spear of shoot out like an arrow. it refers to a paticular destructive type of chi that is formed to use in battle, often sharp and penetrating. if you can create this type of 'chi' you can use any type of external move you want. in duan yu's case, he used the sword moves within 6MDS because that was what he had learned.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

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    yes, in the later part of the novel, he uses a sabre to cut of XF's cuffs utilising his immense inner power.
    It doesn't take sword skills to use a sabre as a conduit for internal power - ZWJ explicitly has no sword forms and can still use a sword against Mie-Jue and her disciples relying only on his internal power.

    6MDS actually contains swordmoves.
    This is all you needed to say, man. If it actually contains forms and stances that are for use with swords instead of just to create the meridian swords, then, yes, I would call it a sword skill.

    I was under the impression that it did not - that the stances DY studies are like qigong stances, which allow him to build up the necessary energy to start creating the swords, not for the use of a sword as a weapon.

    Note that I never said that a *good swordsman* couldn't do sword moves *without a sword*. I was going explicitly the other direction - that as I understood it Duan Yu *not needing a sword* did not mean that he was a *good swordsman*. I understood the stances of 6MSJ as creating the swords and the practitioner using his own combat skill to wield them, instead of being a transcendent sword skill that also allows the projection of the meridian swords - like a 'shortcut'.

    Does that make sense? I'm not trying to, like, argue or anything, but the difference is pretty clear in my mind between the two. But if 6MSJ also includes sword stances that could be used independent of the meridian swords, then it's a sword skill.

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    truthfully, it took me a little while what you were asking. i was under the impression you were asking if internal energy based attacks could be swordmoves. then i got that you were asking does it contain sword moves or is it like yiyingji, an advanced internal energy practise with martial arts theories.
    the pictures that show the stances of 6MDS actually do contain sword moves as well as inner power cultivation techniques. the sword moves actually are the cultivation techniques.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

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