Team Condor v Team Smiling Wanderers

[Whsie]

i don't care if GJ is outside of 10 feet or not. GJ was playing defense, meaning that even outside of 10 feet, he still had to block/dodge H7G's attacks or else he would just be jumping around dodging, not using a sword. HYS did not LOSE at 70%, he simply could not over overcome GJ with 70%. since he was keen not to defeat GJ in 200 strokes...why would he be using more than 70%? whichevers actually, 70 or 80, H7G was not using full power. and still, i don't see WHY H7G would want to increase the distance? If GJ can keep away at 10 feet, why not 200 feet? it entirely does not matter.

yes someone who can fire 100 feet compared to someone who can only do 5 feet under the same circumstances, 100 feet person wins. that still doesn't prove crap because for one, you have not proven h7g's max in LOCH is 10 feet, and you have not given a number on how far the greats CAN fire in ROCH. the only distance you have given is HYS firing a pebble from afar, which even you agree that is not to be compared with palm/qi. whether HYS must use a pebble or not from over 50 feet has no relation to whether or not one can fire their palms fifty feet or not. you must first prove that HYS is able to do the same deeds without a pebble as the same deeds he did in LOCH with a pebble, which you have not shown. it's like i'm trying to prove that earth is bigger than mars, but you're giving evidence that the sun is bigger than the moon. So? WHAT does that prove in relation to the argument?

No, HYS was not losing at the instance but was losing in long term. HYS said that if the match were to have extend over 300 stances, he may lose.
I reedited it, read that section for HYS's distance.
You should know that if a palm wind reaches it max distance, it will dissapear right.... If H7G can fire 10 feet and GJ stays out at 12 feet, he is relatively safe from the palm energy. Greats of ROCH can fire between 20-50 feet (blame JY for not being specific enough) as shown from Yg/Hys battle.

[Whsie]

oh dear, according to that theory, the greats all double their power in just 16 yrs? considering that they are all 90+, the amount of improvement in 16 years is at least equal to or more than what they achieved in like 70 yrs?????!

what is this exponential improvement?

Not neccesary double. But at least increase a lot to at least still maintain somewhere ~ with JLFW.

[Whsie]

Yeah, I have a problem with this idea too. At the end of LOCH, the Greats were already in their 60s. I figure that they had to have been pretty close to the peak of their powers and even if they hadn't reached the peak yet, they were so close to it that any improvement they would make thereafter would be tiny increments rather than huge quantum leaps. I figure that by age 60, the Greats had already done most of the improvement that they were going to do; they were close to maxing out their growth potential and whatever gains they would make until they die would be relatively small gains...nothing like DOUBLING their existing abilities.

That's defintitely not true. OYF was stated by JY to have increased his internal a lot from the Reversed 9 Yin. Though H7G had less of 9 Yin, but he still improved almost equally much because of Actual 9 Yin.
And from what I know, Yideng in his 60s didn't use Solitary Yang Finger like he did in ROCH where his Solitary Yang Finger was described better and stronger than any other time period he used it and other users in DGSD.
ZBT you know did increase because he has QZ unlimited daoist increase in internal. Due to YG's sudden increasement between the 16 Year period, how would GJ still remain on par? Improve of course.

[Ren Ying Ying]

You need to read more specifically on this one: 黄杨两人相隔数丈，你一掌来，我一掌去， This meant that YG/HYS were just there blasting palm energies at one another not moving, just matching from "several zhang" or anything between 20-50 feet (remember, the quote above said 50 feet is max).
Later, when Falling Leave Sword Palm wasn't useful anymore, he had to use Divine Flick and from the same distance fire finger energy. 自忖掌力不足以与之对抗，伸指一弹，嗤的一声轻响，一股细细的劲力激射出去，登时将杨过拍出的 掌力化解了。 HYS clearly was using finger energy at a bare minimum of 20 feet and he directly dissovled YG's palm energy.

did it say HYS's finger energy was shooting to 20 feet? No. It said energy shot out of his finger, not that it traveled whatever distance. remember, YG & HYS were not fighting with air, they were using the three guys as intermediates. HYS being able to "dissolve" YG's attack doesn't mean his attack reaches YG through thin air, it meant he was able to return the attack by flicking away the three guys (who were backed up by YG's palm power) not thin air.

[Whsie]

did it say HYS's finger energy was shooting to 20 feet? No. It said energy shot out of his finger, not that it traveled whatever distance. remember, YG & HYS were not fighting with air, they were using the three guys as intermediates. HYS being able to "dissolve" YG's attack doesn't mean his attack reaches YG through thin air, it meant he was able to return the attack by flicking away the three guys (who were backed up by YG's palm power) not thin air.

man, you really don't get it. 50 feet is max possible. And they used "several zhang" 黄杨两人相隔数丈，你一掌来，我一掌去. Several means 2 or more. But wait.... JY said 5 zhang is most possible in DGSD, so... that means somewhere between 20-50 feet. So 20 feet as I said earlier is MINIMUM possible... NOW you get it???
HYS shot energy out of his finger at LDA to dissolve YG's palm....
Not flick away three guys. But actually dissolve. HYS first used Divine Flick to dissolve the energy of YG's palm, THEN he flicked 3 more hits to make the 3 lackeys go in a coma. So HYS first dissolved it fairly, then shot 3. 伸指一弹，嗤的一声轻响，一股细细的劲力激射出去，登时将杨过拍出的掌力化解了 It is using finger energy, not a pebble or some sort of medium. Being able to dissovle YG's palm energy by using only fingers is very impressive. Even more powerful than when HYS used pebbles. The 3 guys were just played by YG/HYS. It didn't serve much meaning except making the task maybe harder because you also have to CARRY those 3 guys with your palm energy. What YG did was that he first used palm wind to trap those 3 guys within the palm wind(zhang feng), then used Palm Blast (zhang li-掌力) to lauch at HYS. 掌力 is clearly damageable to your opponent if hit. In DGSD, all of XF's palm power were using 掌力.

[Ren Ying Ying]

And where did I said that Z3F and ZWJ is above GJ/YG? Though JY said it through Z3F's mind, but as I said earlier, comparision of internal is reliable through a character because it's not bounded by beliefs of a era/personal knowledge. If you were talking about Z3F having the #1 xin fa, then that is only during Z3F's era and before ZWJ showed up.
We can actually use it to a certain extent because JLFW is stated by JY that GJ would need 1000+ stances to win. And it's also general opinion of the forum that JLFW is ~ a Great. Even after 16 Years, JLFW was still ~ a Great even though JLFW may win due to age advantage. Yideng and JLFW's battle and ZBT's battle all showed that the Great weren't much weaker than JLFW after JLFW increased so much over the 16 year period.
Yes, that is why I said Tian generation's words aren't reliable while the words Jin Yong said directly from his mind is 100% good.

you know i was only making those examples to be sarcastic, rite? but it's the flawed logic of just because JY says it through a character's mind instead of directly doesn't automatically make it unreliable.

speaking of which, so you are saying that qiu chu ji's words on the stone is valid? that not even 1 deng can carve on stone/wood?

No, HYS was not losing at the instance but was losing in long term. HYS said that if the match were to have extend over 300 stances, he may lose.
I reedited it, read that section for HYS's distance.
You should know that if a palm wind reaches it max distance, it will dissapear right.... If H7G can fire 10 feet and GJ stays out at 12 feet, he is relatively safe from the palm energy. Greats of ROCH can fire between 20-50 feet (blame JY for not being specific enough) as shown from Yg/Hys battle.

no, GJ said if the match was over 300 stances, GJ would lose, not HYS.

I don't get your point about how you can imply H7G's palm is at MAX 10 feet, when it obviously implies that H7G can fire AT LEAST 10 feet.

Not neccesary double. But at least increase a lot to at least still maintain somewhere ~ with JLFW.

That's defintitely not true. OYF was stated by JY to have increased his internal a lot from the Reversed 9 Yin. Though H7G had less of 9 Yin, but he still improved almost equally much because of Actual 9 Yin.
And from what I know, Yideng in his 60s didn't use Solitary Yang Finger like he did in ROCH where his Solitary Yang Finger was described better and stronger than any other time period he used it and other users in DGSD.
ZBT you know did increase because he has QZ unlimited daoist increase in internal. Due to YG's sudden increasement between the 16 Year period, how would GJ still remain on par? Improve of course.

If pre 16 yr great was about JLFW and post 16 yr great is still the same as JLFW, then that means they have about the same improvement, yes. but, in your quote, you state that JLFW improved at least 2X...doesn't that go the same for the greats???? and thus, 16 years = 60/70+ years for the greats??? i highly see that illogical. no one is arguing over whether these people improved or not, they obviously did. but to the extent you claim? that'z ridiculous!

[Ren Ying Ying]

man, you really don't get it. 50 feet is max possible. And they used "several zhang" 黄杨两人相隔数丈，你一掌来，我一掌去. Several means 2 or more. But wait.... JY said 5 zhang is most possible in DGSD, so... that means somewhere between 20-50 feet. So 20 feet as I said earlier is MINIMUM possible... NOW you get it???
HYS shot energy out of his finger at LDA to dissolve YG's palm....
Not flick away three guys. But actually dissolve. HYS first used Divine Flick to dissolve the energy of YG's palm, THEN he flicked 3 more hits to make the 3 lackeys go in a coma. So HYS first dissolved it fairly, then shot 3. 伸指一弹，嗤的一声轻响，一股细细的劲力激射出去，登时将杨过拍出的掌力化解了 It is using finger energy, not a pebble or some sort of medium. Being able to dissovle YG's palm energy by using only fingers is very impressive. Even more powerful than when HYS used pebbles. The 3 guys were just played by YG/HYS. It didn't serve much meaning except making the task maybe harder because you also have to CARRY those 3 guys with your palm energy. What YG did was that he first used palm wind to trap those 3 guys within the palm wind(zhang feng), then used Palm Blast (zhang li-掌力) to lauch at HYS. 掌力 is clearly damageable to your opponent if hit. In DGSD, all of XF's palm power were using 掌力.

no, sorry, i DON't get it. i don't know WHAT you are trying to prove.

dude, like i said, i really don't care whether the max is two feet, fifty feet, or 2000 feet. honestly, i don't see how it even affects this argument????? like my example above, it's like i'm measuring the distance between the moon and earth and you're telling me that pluto is the farthest planet. even those two have more relevance to each other than what the max palm distance is ti this argument.

the way YG & HYS was comparing palms was by passing three guys between the two of them...like passing a ball between the two people, whoever throws harder wins. HYS did not need to shoot his finger power far like Yi deng does with 1Yang finger. all he has to do to prove equality is to YG by returning the three guys. the measurement of power is by who can throw the three guys with more power so the other cannot return them. again, HYS does not need to shoot far to "dissolve" YG's stance. YG and HYS were both proved to be "dissolving" each others attack by passing three people. i don't see how that ever implied that HYS shot out finger energy that goes at least to 20 feet????? nowhere in the novel does it say that what HYS did in this fight is anymore powerful than HYS using pebbles and DUH, of course returning YG's palms is impressive. not any ol' bimbo can do it. but's it HYS we're talking about here, not to mention finger flick is one of his most powerful skills.

[Extremer88]

Are you talking about the chi breaking stance? That is highly controversial. And in addition, LHC didn't master it . Some (including me) say that it can't overcome higher levels.

No no not this. The sentence does not mention any chi breaking stance. It was a general sentence on DG9J in XAJH that wrote that no matter how powerful the opponent internal energy is, he may struggle when up against the wonderful strokes of DG9J.

[Whsie]

you know i was only making those examples to be sarcastic, rite? but it's the flawed logic of just because JY says it through a character's mind instead of directly doesn't automatically make it unreliable.

speaking of which, so you are saying that qiu chu ji's words on the stone is valid? that not even 1 deng can carve on stone/wood?



no, GJ said if the match was over 300 stances, GJ would lose, not HYS.

I don't get your point about how you can imply H7G's palm is at MAX 10 feet, when it obviously implies that H7G can fire AT LEAST 10 feet.



If pre 16 yr great was about JLFW and post 16 yr great is still the same as JLFW, then that means they have about the same improvement, yes. but, in your quote, you state that JLFW improved at least 2X...doesn't that go the same for the greats???? and thus, 16 years = 60/70+ years for the greats??? i highly see that illogical. no one is arguing over whether these people improved or not, they obviously did. but to the extent you claim? that'z ridiculous!

QCJ thinks it's impossible to carve on stone with fingers. And he says Yideng can't do it. However, this is Pre 22 Years ROCH Yideng.

Sigh...我若是稍有容让，莫说被他挡到三百招之外，只怕还得输在他手里，”高手比武，实是让不得半分。黄药师初时出手只用了七分劲，哪知被郭靖全力奋击，竟然压在下 风。This is what HYS was saying. And HYS said that if he was to go on like this, he would eventually lose outside of 300 stances.

Do you read chinese? 年他败在杨过和小龙女剑下，引为生平奇耻大辱，此时功力既已倍增

Heck, I even bolded the area for you. It clearly says from JY's mind and mouth that JLFW increased by MUTIPLE times which is most likely 2X unless you think it's 3 or 4 which even I highly doubt. What JY says is near god's words in his novels.

As for H7G, I said it. GJ was 10 feet away. If H7G extended the palm energy at a suprise moment, wouldn't it catch GJ? GJ was outside of 10 feet. Increase to 15, bam.

I'll talk to you later, need to go.

[Ken Cheng]

Calm down, folks. It's only wuxia (but we like it).

[Ren Ying Ying]

QCJ thinks it's impossible to carve on stone with fingers. And he says Yideng can't do it. However, this is Pre 22 Years ROCH Yideng.

Sigh...我若是稍有容让，莫说被他挡到三百招之外，只怕还得输在他手里，”高手比武，实是让不得半分。黄药师初时出手只用了七分劲，哪知被郭靖全力奋击，竟然压在下 风。This is what HYS was saying. And HYS said that if he was to go on like this, he would eventually lose outside of 300 stances.

Do you read chinese? 年他败在杨过和小龙女剑下，引为生平奇耻大辱，此时功力既已倍增

Heck, I even bolded the area for you. It clearly says from JY's mind and mouth that JLFW increased by MUTIPLE times which is most likely 2X unless you think it's 3 or 4 which even I highly doubt. What JY says is near god's words in his novels.

As for H7G, I said it. GJ was 10 feet away. If H7G extended the palm energy at a suprise moment, wouldn't it catch GJ? GJ was outside of 10 feet. Increase to 15, bam.

I'll talk to you later, need to go.

okay, nm then. i thought u meant HYS said it after the match. Still, that is not important cuz it's still obvious that H7G does not use full power. But on that matter, do you really think if H7G fired 15 he would be able to defeat GJ? The problem wasn't reaching GJ (cuz if anything H7G's qinggong should be faster than GJ on that lvl). If it's all about distance, why did GJ & H7G matched palms at the end of their fight? and why did GJ and OYF have to match palms in begining of ROCH?
just in case you're misunderstanding my point and go on about the max or min of LDA...my point is that it's not that distance doesn't matter, but that distance doesn't decide the fight (or else why would people even bother with palm touching fights?).

didn't i say it's illogical unless you really honestly believe that the GREATS can also double more more their power in just 16 years compared to their 60/70 yr training? if you think that this is justificable, then fine i have nothing to say on that matter. but personally, i find that quite improbable considering it never said the greats suddenly came up with new things or they trained harder than usual and considering they were 90+. i mean, honestly, if those 16 years equal to their 60/70 yr previous training...my question is, what the hell were they doing earlier in their lives????????????

yes, i'm usually tend to lean on straight text and take JY's words as the god of his novels. unfortunately, sometimes he goes off into the air describing things and contradicting himself.

for example, JY said that at the first Mt. Hua Shan tournament, the greats's martial arts were already 登峰造极 which mean pretty much "reach the limit", but does that truely mean they can't go no higher? obviously not since he keeps saying how they have been improving. but my point? should we take 登峰造极 literally or 倍增 literally despite what contradictions it implies? well, i guess it's mostly up to your choice, but personally, unless he keeps stressing it over and over, i think he's exaggerating with some description.

Calm down, folks. It's only wuxia (but we like it).

oh i c....ken cheng is one of those who love watching people claw each other's faces out

ah, so ken cheng is THAT kind of person

[Whsie]

okay, nm then. i thought u meant HYS said it after the match. Still, that is not important cuz it's still obvious that H7G does not use full power. But on that matter, do you really think if H7G fired 15 he would be able to defeat GJ? The problem wasn't reaching GJ (cuz if anything H7G's qinggong should be faster than GJ on that lvl). If it's all about distance, why did GJ & H7G matched palms at the end of their fight? and why did GJ and OYF have to match palms in begining of ROCH?
just in case you're misunderstanding my point and go on about the max or min of LDA...my point is that it's not that distance doesn't matter, but that distance doesn't decide the fight (or else why would people even bother with palm touching fights?).

didn't i say it's illogical unless you really honestly believe that the GREATS can also double more more their power in just 16 years compared to their 60/70 yr training? if you think that this is justificable, then fine i have nothing to say on that matter. but personally, i find that quite improbable considering it never said the greats suddenly came up with new things or they trained harder than usual and considering they were 90+. i mean, honestly, if those 16 years equal to their 60/70 yr previous training...my question is, what the hell were they doing earlier in their lives????????????

yes, i'm usually tend to lean on straight text and take JY's words as the god of his novels. unfortunately, sometimes he goes off into the air describing things and contradicting himself.

for example, JY said that at the first Mt. Hua Shan tournament, the greats's martial arts were already 登峰造极 which mean pretty much "reach the limit", but does that truely mean they can't go no higher? obviously not since he keeps saying how they have been improving. but my point? should we take 登峰造极 literally or 倍增 literally despite what contradictions it implies? well, i guess it's mostly up to your choice, but personally, unless he keeps stressing it over and over, i think he's exaggerating with some description.



oh i c....ken cheng is one of those who love watching people claw each other's faces out

ah, so ken cheng is THAT kind of person

I'm not 100% sure about GJ/OYF battle, but I think the perimeters might have been limited. While the 2 were fighting at first, HR was setting up the object formations. HR wanted GJ to win by himself, therefore HR was just on the perimeter setting up. So I think the space may have been somewhat limited. As for Mongol battle, the perimeter was for sure limited because GJ was fighting JLFW and his buddies surrounded by an army of Mongol soldiers.
LDA may not tell decide the match, but it could be used as reference for reletively how strong opponents is. For example this person A can fire 30 feet and person B can fire 40 feet, which one is stronger? person B.
And I know H7G wasn't using full strenght, but it still had to be above 70% or else H7G would be in HYS's case where HYS said he was losing in long term if he kept on using 70%. And technically H7G should be using somewhere around 80% or more because he had to regain his level while HYS and OYF both increased. HR directly mentioned it that OYF has the advantage while it was OYF vs. H7G because while these years that OYF was training, H7G was recooperating. And I don't think 登峰造极 was used by JY directly (if it is, plz give me the quote), it was said by HYS when GJ was first on Peach Blossom Island. HYS said that 20 years ago, OYF and H7G's kung fu already 登峰造极, but it wasn't mentioned from JY's narrative view which is the most reliable of all.
Now, now, I'm not saying that just because JLFW doubled, the other Greats doubled along with him. All I meant was that JLFW doubled right(which I find somewhat believable seeing the power increasment of Dragon Elephant Prana Skill)? But the Greats were able to be somewhere around JLFW. So? This means that though the Greats didn't improve 2X, but they still had to improve a lot to at least still maintain that that same tier between JLFW and the Old Greats. So what I'm saying right now is this- HYS/Yideng were ~ JLFW at Pre 16 Years ROCH. JLFW 2X and reached his max which I will use as the scale of 100%. HYS and Yideng to maintain that same tier, had to improve from the original approx 50%-60% of 100% JLFW to like approx 85%-90% of JLFW. Still considerable improvement.
And I don't know about HYS (but he is a genius), but Yideng having that kind of improvement is very believable to me. Yideng had WCY's best- Pre Heaven Skill- the strongest cultivation in QZ. So improving like that for Yideng is belieavable for me. To further show my point, ZBT said to GJ that if Hua shan was to take place again, with the improvements over the years, WCY would need less than a day to beat the other 4(notice the drastic change of from 7 to 1 day?). And since ZBT fought with HYS mutiple times, ZBT knows HYS's level, so the comparision is useable.

[Ken Cheng]

I'm not 100% sure about GJ/OYF battle, but I think the perimeters might have been limited.

There were civilians around at that inn. Gwok Jing had to hold off Au Yeung Fung without harming any civilians.

[Ren Ying Ying]

I'm not 100% sure about GJ/OYF battle, but I think the perimeters might have been limited. While the 2 were fighting at first, HR was setting up the object formations. HR wanted GJ to win by himself, therefore HR was just on the perimeter setting up. So I think the space may have been somewhat limited. As for Mongol battle, the perimeter was for sure limited because GJ was fighting JLFW and his buddies surrounded by an army of Mongol soldiers.
LDA may not tell decide the match, but it could be used as reference for reletively how strong opponents is. For example this person A can fire 30 feet and person B can fire 40 feet, which one is stronger? person B.

And I know H7G wasn't using full strenght, but it still had to be above 70% or else H7G would be in HYS's case where HYS said he was losing in long term if he kept on using 70%. And technically H7G should be using somewhere around 80% or more because he had to regain his level while HYS and OYF both increased. HR directly mentioned it that OYF has the advantage while it was OYF vs. H7G because while these years that OYF was training, H7G was recooperating.

perimeters or not...my point is distance doesn't settle the fight. my argument on your question "why didn't H7G fire for 15 feet if he could" was that it didn't matter. For all we know, maybe H7G's palms actually would've traveled 20 feet or 100 feet if GJ wasn't there. The text does not say the H7G's palm winds do not affect GJ at 10 feet away, or else like i said before, why would GJ even bother weilding the iron flute as a sword...obviously to block away the H7G's palm force, right? Therefore, you only conclusion you can make using that battle is that H7G's MINIMAL range is 10 feet. There is no evidence pointing at what his maximal range is! I don't care what the circumstances GJ had to fight under...my point is that just because GJ fights in a hand-hand combat or only fire from a few feet away, it doesnt not mean a few feet is his maximum range, right? Was there anything fight that featured GJ in long range distance?
And doesn't H7G needing to recuperation prove my point further that he should not be limited to 10 feet?

And I don't think 登峰造极 was used by JY directly (if it is, plz give me the quote), it was said by HYS when GJ was first on Peach Blossom Island. HYS said that 20 years ago, OYF and H7G's kung fu already 登峰造极, but it wasn't mentioned from JY's narrative view which is the most reliable of all.

It was...
i'd give you the text in chinese...but everytime i try to highlight, the window freezes up. (btw, i think it's a website problem...do you have better suggestions on where to find the text?) but anywayz, luckly i looked at the translation section and they've just got the part

They have reached the pinnacle of their martial arts twenty years ago. After the Sword Meet of Mount Hua both have trained hard and improved their skills tremendously.

anywayz, you can go find the text yourself...chapter 18 (toward the middle)or something like that where H7G and OYF are fighting. Then soon afterwards, JY starts talking about how GJ goes into some sort of trance.

anywayz, shall we interpret it as the two have reached 登峰造极? but if so, how can they still improve if they're already at their peak????

Now, now, I'm not saying that just because JLFW doubled, the other Greats doubled along with him. All I meant was that JLFW doubled right(which I find somewhat believable seeing the power increasment of Dragon Elephant Prana Skill)? But the Greats were able to be somewhere around JLFW. So? This means that though the Greats didn't improve 2X, but they still had to improve a lot to at least still maintain that that same tier between JLFW and the Old Greats. So what I'm saying right now is this- HYS/Yideng were ~ JLFW at Pre 16 Years ROCH. JLFW 2X and reached his max which I will use as the scale of 100%. HYS and Yideng to maintain that same tier, had to improve from the original approx 50%-60% of 100% JLFW to like approx 85%-90% of JLFW. Still considerable improvement.

Oh dear, i hope you do not do anything with applied math. I'd hate to use anything you designed just kidding

but really. i thought you have agreed that Greats/GJ roughly = JLFW pre 16 yr right?

your own quote: "So what I'm saying right now is this- HYS/Yideng were ~ JLFW at Pre 16 Years ROCH."

and we also agree that Greats/GJ/YG roughly equal JLFW after 16 years, right?

your own quote: "But the Greats were able to be somewhere around JLFW"

I'm sorry, perhaps i am really bad at math or something, but...i do no see how "50%-60% of 100%" is anything like "85%-90% of JLFW" i might just be misreading your words...i don't know. but clearly, 85-90% is not EQUAL...or even on the same tier. You are afterall the one who claimed H7G was at least using 80% against GJ at end of LOCH....and the two are clearly not even CLOSE to the same lvl. If two people were around the same lvl...the deviation should not go beyond a few percent (not to mention since we are already dealing with GREAT lvls...a few percent is already a BIG difference). Plus, if you were going to set pre 16-yr great at 50-60% of post 16 yr JLFW and at the same time claim JLFW was 50% of himself, then you are claiming Greats>>JLFW pre 16 yr...which is clearly NOT supported because it can easily swing the other way. Likewise, claiming that Greats need only be 85-90% post 16 yr JLFW, you are claiming that JLFW>>Greats...which is also not supported and can swing the other way. If we were to go according to your percentages, i can easily say that greats were only 40-50% JLFW before 16 yr and 110-115% JLFW after 16 years. do you see my point?

And I don't know about HYS (but he is a genius), but Yideng having that kind of improvement is very believable to me. Yideng had WCY's best- Pre Heaven Skill- the strongest cultivation in QZ. So improving like that for Yideng is belieavable for me. To further show my point, ZBT said to GJ that if Hua shan was to take place again, with the improvements over the years, WCY would need less than a day to beat the other 4(notice the drastic change of from 7 to 1 day?). And since ZBT fought with HYS mutiple times, ZBT knows HYS's level, so the comparision is useable

Yideng learned QZ energy fairly quickly...maybe a few yrs after the first Mt. Hua tournament. i don't see why 16 years for him is equal to almost 40 years for him either.

ZBT's comment...well, too bad WCY is dead! and even if it were to hold true, that QZ internal energy would improve something like more than 7 times as fast as the other great, then Yideng & ZBT should be WAY above HYS--which we clearly see is NOT the case. Btw, i'm pretty sure ZBT is refering to WCY beating the other greats after 20 years improvement, not the greats that went to the first Mt. Hua tournament. so either way, whether his statement holds true or not...very contradictory.

[Whsie]

perimeters or not...my point is distance doesn't settle the fight. my argument on your question "why didn't H7G fire for 15 feet if he could" was that it didn't matter. For all we know, maybe H7G's palms actually would've traveled 20 feet or 100 feet if GJ wasn't there. The text does not say the H7G's palm winds do not affect GJ at 10 feet away, or else like i said before, why would GJ even bother weilding the iron flute as a sword...obviously to block away the H7G's palm force, right? Therefore, you only conclusion you can make using that battle is that H7G's MINIMAL range is 10 feet. There is no evidence pointing at what his maximal range is! I don't care what the circumstances GJ had to fight under...my point is that just because GJ fights in a hand-hand combat or only fire from a few feet away, it doesnt not mean a few feet is his maximum range, right? Was there anything fight that featured GJ in long range distance?
And doesn't H7G needing to recuperation prove my point further that he should not be limited to 10 feet?



It was...
i'd give you the text in chinese...but everytime i try to highlight, the window freezes up. (btw, i think it's a website problem...do you have better suggestions on where to find the text?) but anywayz, luckly i looked at the translation section and they've just got the part



anywayz, you can go find the text yourself...chapter 18 (toward the middle)or something like that where H7G and OYF are fighting. Then soon afterwards, JY starts talking about how GJ goes into some sort of trance.

anywayz, shall we interpret it as the two have reached 登峰造极? but if so, how can they still improve if they're already at their peak????

Ok, I'm not argueing with you on H7G anymore, we aren't getting anywhere. However, just to tell you, don't ever say 100 feet. The max is clearly stated by JY to be 50 feet or 5 zhang. GJ didn't use LDA because there never was the oppurtunity. In LOCH, he didn't show any capabilty performing LDA. In ROCH, GJ certainly had the potential, but didn't show it because there wasn't the oppurtunity. There was 3 main battles. 1. OYF/GJ. First there were common people around. Second, HR was limiting the perimeters with her formations. 2. 98 Big Dipper Formation- There just simply was no room to even perform 10 feet. 3. JLFW and GJ battle- No room either, all Mongols surrounding the area.

Btw, how does recuperation have to do anything with this? All recuperation shows is that H7G needed to heal back his internal. During H7G's recuperation, OYF/HYS both get a small advantage.

Hm.... ok, I admit that you're right. But just because you reached the peak, it most likely only means that you reached the peak during your time. It doesn't neccesary mean that there is a limit. ZBT did say that QZ is unlimited, so there really actually is no real "peak" in martial arts. Maybe there is a peak for style as ZBT said for H7G's external XL18Z which is near peak and not much room for improvement. However for internal, ZBT did say that QZ internal has no boundaries. Yideng had Pre Heaven (I'll explain later), HYS I'm not sure, but he's a genius. H7G and OYF each got portions of 9 Yin which is in the same road as QZ internal directly said by JY's mind/words. So there techically is no real boundary for any of them except maybe HYS, but as I said, he is also the smartiest. As for JLFW, he definitely haven't reached the peak since he is still at level 10 out of 13 for Dragon Elephant Prana Skill.

[Whsie]

Oh dear, i hope you do not do anything with applied math. I'd hate to use anything you designed just kidding

but really. i thought you have agreed that Greats/GJ roughly = JLFW pre 16 yr right?

your own quote: "So what I'm saying right now is this- HYS/Yideng were ~ JLFW at Pre 16 Years ROCH."

and we also agree that Greats/GJ/YG roughly equal JLFW after 16 years, right?

your own quote: "But the Greats were able to be somewhere around JLFW"

I'm sorry, perhaps i am really bad at math or something, but...i do no see how "50%-60% of 100%" is anything like "85%-90% of JLFW" i might just be misreading your words...i don't know. but clearly, 85-90% is not EQUAL...or even on the same tier. You are afterall the one who claimed H7G was at least using 80% against GJ at end of LOCH....and the two are clearly not even CLOSE to the same lvl. If two people were around the same lvl...the deviation should not go beyond a few percent (not to mention since we are already dealing with GREAT lvls...a few percent is already a BIG difference). Plus, if you were going to set pre 16-yr great at 50-60% of post 16 yr JLFW and at the same time claim JLFW was 50% of himself, then you are claiming Greats>>JLFW pre 16 yr...which is clearly NOT supported because it can easily swing the other way. Likewise, claiming that Greats need only be 85-90% post 16 yr JLFW, you are claiming that JLFW>>Greats...which is also not supported and can swing the other way. If we were to go according to your percentages, i can easily say that greats were only 40-50% JLFW before 16 yr and 110-115% JLFW after 16 years. do you see my point?

Apparently, you're new and haven't seen enough of the other threads. Ok, maybe I need to explain this more clear. And don't rush to the conclusion so quick. Ok, for instance JLFW at the end of ROCH is the 100% scale. Yideng/HYS at Pre 16 Years ROCH is 50-60%. After 16 Years making it Post 16 Years ROCH, Yideng/HYS is 85-90% of JLFW. Usually you're correct, that 10% difference is enough to make the difference in a battle and therefore lower Yideng/HYS to a lower tier than JLFW. Unfortunetly, there is 2 things against JLFW that the majority of the forum agrees. 1. JLFW's external art STINKS. Quite literally. Dragon Elephant Prana Skill only helps with the internal, but not the external. And if you ask most, they usually say JLFW has higher internal by a good margin. But, his external as I said sucks compared to that of Yideng's Solitary Yang Finger and HYS' Divine Flick. Does JLFW have anything close? Doubtful. I usually see JLFW with literally wheels all the time. 2. JLFW's battle instincts aren't that great either. He generally shows some cowardness. The best example is JLFW+3 buddies battle against GJ. JY directly mentioned that if GJ vs. JLFW one on one, it should be over 1000 stances and later mentions that JLFW+his buddies shouldn't have trouble against GJ long term. However.... GJ doesn't show any sign of losing. And partially it was due to the fact that the opponents didn't dare to go full out (cowardness) according to JY directly again.

[Whsie]

Yideng learned QZ energy fairly quickly...maybe a few yrs after the first Mt. Hua tournament. i don't see why 16 years for him is equal to almost 40 years for him either.

ZBT's comment...well, too bad WCY is dead! and even if it were to hold true, that QZ internal energy would improve something like more than 7 times as fast as the other great, then Yideng & ZBT should be WAY above HYS--which we clearly see is NOT the case. Btw, i'm pretty sure ZBT is refering to WCY beating the other greats after 20 years improvement, not the greats that went to the first Mt. Hua tournament. so either way, whether his statement holds true or not...very contradictory.

Yideng learned it quick, but complete. WCY made sure Yideng at least had all the training method+way learned. Remember? WCY needed Yideng to learn the whole thing in order for Yideng to become the blackstar of OYF.

Did you understand my last few sentences on the post you are countering? ZBT fought HYS mutiple times on Peach Blossom, so ZBT knows HYS's level. And ZBT still says WCY with his improvements over the years would need less than 1 day to win. In other words, ZBT is using the HYS at LOCH time period in comparing WCY winning within 1 day. QZ internal is one thing. Pre Heaven is the same except the deepest of QZ arts. The final point is that Pre Heaven has unlimited growth and Yideng can trully improve that much.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Ok, I'm not argueing with you on H7G anymore, we aren't getting anywhere. However, just to tell you, don't ever say 100 feet. The max is clearly stated by JY to be 50 feet or 5 zhang. GJ didn't use LDA because there never was the oppurtunity. In LOCH, he didn't show any capabilty performing LDA. In ROCH, GJ certainly had the potential, but didn't show it because there wasn't the oppurtunity. There was 3 main battles. 1. OYF/GJ. First there were common people around. Second, HR was limiting the perimeters with her formations. 2. 98 Big Dipper Formation- There just simply was no room to even perform 10 feet. 3. JLFW and GJ battle- No room either, all Mongols surrounding the area.

hehe, i was just using 100 feet and 2000 feet as an exaggeration to make the point of "it doesn't matter really what the max is..." but if it get's on ur nerves, fine, i'll just be conservative with 50 feet 1000 feet LDA!! hahaha. shall i call an ambulence? j/k

But back to the real point, i don't see why GJ has the potential and the crew in LOCH doesn't? can you give an example what makes you think LOCH people don't have the potential? afterall, i can say something like "Wei Xiao Bao can fire to 50 feet...he just never showed it"

Btw, how does recuperation have to do anything with this? All recuperation shows is that H7G needed to heal back his internal. During H7G's recuperation, OYF/HYS both get a small advantage.

okay, i think we might be refering to different incidents. i thought u brought it up, so i just added it in. but if you say it has nothing to do with anything...okay, ignore then. haha never mind about it then

Hm.... ok, I admit that you're right. But just because you reached the peak, it most likely only means that you reached the peak during your time. It doesn't neccesary mean that there is a limit. ZBT did say that QZ is unlimited, so there really actually is no real "peak" in martial arts. Maybe there is a peak for style as ZBT said for H7G's external XL18Z which is near peak and not much room for improvement. However for internal, ZBT did say that QZ internal has no boundaries. Yideng had Pre Heaven (I'll explain later), HYS I'm not sure, but he's a genius. H7G and OYF each got portions of 9 Yin which is in the same road as QZ internal directly said by JY's mind/words. So there techically is no real boundary for any of them except maybe HYS, but as I said, he is also the smartiest. As for JLFW, he definitely haven't reached the peak since he is still at level 10 out of 13 for Dragon Elephant Prana Skill.

my point with the 登峰造极 example was to say JY loves to overly describe something and even tends to contradict himself occasionally with his description...unless of course he overly stresses about it. since we know JY does not truely mean they greats are at their peak, are you sure we can truely trust that JLFW made 2X improvement on power given the stats of the Greats (still roughly 16=60/70 yrs...i shall discuss JLFW & Greats power in detail in next section). H7G and OYF...we need to ignore because they were DEAD by the time 16 years passed, so they really don't offer too much evidence. And you cannot simply rely on HYS's brain all the time. Yes, he is a genius, but the others aren't dumb asses. But even if you argue that QZ art helps you increase internal energy unlimitedly (which it probably does...but i highly doubt exponentially), you still don't make up the differnce for 16 years in ROCH and 40 years (about 20 years from 1st Mt. Hua tournament to 2nd's tournament and 20 from 2nd tournament to pre 16 yr time period...i don't know the exact time, but you get the picture, right?) unless you argue for exponential improvement. Let's not mention that GJ also practiced QZ/9 yin art and it took him less than 20 years to make equivalent of what greats did in roughly 40 years. By your theory then, at the end of ROCH GJ should be WAYYYY above the rest of the Greats (for arguments sake, i'm assuming you agree GJ falls roughly around the other great's lvl...or else this will turn into another ugly GJ vs YG debate. But if you disagree with this...please state so and we can continue on the GJ vs YG debate thread...:P)

Yideng learned it quick, but complete. WCY made sure Yideng at least had all the training method+way learned. Remember? WCY needed Yideng to learn the whole thing in order for Yideng to become the blackstar of OYF.

Did you understand my last few sentences on the post you are countering? ZBT fought HYS mutiple times on Peach Blossom, so ZBT knows HYS's level. And ZBT still says WCY with his improvements over the years would need less than 1 day to win. In other words, ZBT is using the HYS at LOCH time period in comparing WCY winning within 1 day. QZ internal is one thing. Pre Heaven is the same except the deepest of QZ arts. The final point is that Pre Heaven has unlimited growth and Yideng can trully improve that much.

No sorry, i don't know what you are getting at with the example beside saying you can improve faster with QZ...which means Yi Deng should be way more powerful than HYS, OYF, and H7G in LOCH because he has roughly 20 years of pre heaven training? You attribute HYS's improvement to his geniousness...but what about OYF & H7G? We don't see either of them lagging behind HYS and 1deng...do we?

Apparently, you're new and haven't seen enough of the other threads. Ok, maybe I need to explain this more clear. And don't rush to the conclusion so quick. Ok, for instance JLFW at the end of ROCH is the 100% scale. Yideng/HYS at Pre 16 Years ROCH is 50-60%. After 16 Years making it Post 16 Years ROCH, Yideng/HYS is 85-90% of JLFW. Usually you're correct, that 10% difference is enough to make the difference in a battle and therefore lower Yideng/HYS to a lower tier than JLFW. Unfortunetly, there is 2 things against JLFW that the majority of the forum agrees. 1. JLFW's external art STINKS. Quite literally. Dragon Elephant Prana Skill only helps with the internal, but not the external. And if you ask most, they usually say JLFW has higher internal by a good margin. But, his external as I said sucks compared to that of Yideng's Solitary Yang Finger and HYS' Divine Flick. Does JLFW have anything close? Doubtful. I usually see JLFW with literally wheels all the time. 2. JLFW's battle instincts aren't that great either. He generally shows some cowardness. The best example is JLFW+3 buddies battle against GJ. JY directly mentioned that if GJ vs. JLFW one on one, it should be over 1000 stances and later mentions that JLFW+his buddies shouldn't have trouble against GJ long term. However.... GJ doesn't show any sign of losing. And partially it was due to the fact that the opponents didn't dare to go full out (cowardness) according to JY directly again.

I might be jumping to conclusions again, but it seems you are insisting that Greats are 50-60% of post 16 yr JFLW (if according to your theory...JLFW at pre 16 yr is 50% of himself). and like i said, the different between 50 and 60 is entirely different, so you really need to specify. In fact, if anything, you shouldn't say 50-60 but rather 40-60 because 50 is the standard we are basing on here. Anywayz, on to the next part. I don't think you are quite aware of the ridiculous ratio that you are giving. if pre 16 yr Greats are anywhere near 60% while JLFw is at 50%...you are saying that the Greats are 20% better than JLFW (60/50=1.2). In that case, JLFW would've gotten his *** kicked at the Lu Manor during the hero's gathering thing in the palm match vs GJ. Instead, they tie, and JY makes the point that JLFW was physically stronger (and more deeper 功力) while GJ has better technique. I doubt you can even say the great's internal power were even .01% better than JLFW (of course i also doubt you can say JLFW was better either b/c JY remarks OYF & H7G were definitely not below him...and since GJ tied with OYF, i'm sure it's safe to assume JLFW is pretty dead equal to the greats in terms of internal energy in pre-16 yr ROCH.) So, please take off that 60%...it also annoys me (unless ur being sarcastic...then that's fine).
And as for technique, just as in the example above, yes, GJ's technique was a bit better. But is JLFW's technqiue bad enough to allow a 10-15% difference between JLFW and the Greats? okay, let's put it this way. If JLFW's technique is so bad...then GJ's XL18Z (pretty much best palm technique in the world) can take on JLFW with a 10-15% difference...meaning that his power in pre-16 yr was maybe 42.5-45% of post 16 yr JLFW...therefore, also dropping the Greats down to 42-45%. If then, let's just say the greats reached 85-90% after 16 yrs....they are still making a 2X improvement also...which therefore makes 16 yr training equal to 60/70 yr (and even if you consider 1 deng learning xian tian gong...thats still saying 16 yr = 40 yr). Yes, JLFW got his *** kicked by XLN and GJ even though he is better or equal to them. but look at the end...he's handling 2 greats and getting distracted by eagles. *shrug*

and just for the record...if you haven't noticed...i don't follow what most people say. most people voted for team condor in this poll...and i think thatz crap

[Whsie]

Yes, you are HIGHLY and probably the most objective person I've ever seen. (don't know if it's a compliment or not)

This is how the growth for GJ worked. He first mastered it right? So there is this sudden increase in internal. From mastery, it would just gradually grow. It would still grow, but nowhere near when GJ first learnt 9 Yin. So, no... GJ is WAYYY above.

Yoh... I mentioned it before. OYF(reversed)/H7G(when he was healing) had parts of 9 Yin which is said by JY to be like QZ but way better. So they ALSO have unlimited growth, but at a rate slower than GJ because neither of them had the complete version like GJ.

JLFW's external tech is unfortunetly severe enough. Honestly, looking at wheels here.... The main reason why JLFW was able to handle Yideng,etc is because despite the considerable difference, it's not like Yideng would lose quickly. And if JLFW/Yideng were to drag on, JLFW would probably win due to endurance reasons as Yideng clearly was losing energy and feeling stressful since Solitary Yang Finger drains energy. And GJ just because GJ was near JLFW at Pre 16 Years, it doesn't mean that later JLFW and GJ are still near in internal. True, in a fight GJ would win. But I believe JLFW probably even has the highest internal in ROCH. Why? Well, the rest of the Greats (exclude YG) already reached a point where it's only gradual improvement. JLFW is in a heavily different case. In Dragon Elephant Prana Skill, each level increased literally means HUGE amounts of increase. So lets say JLFW was at Level 8 or 9 at Pre 16. At Post 16, he gets to 10, that increasement in level is naturally higher than the rest of the Greats. However, it seems like I need to now lower the Greats level to the approx 70%-75%(this increasment makes a bit more sense also) of JLFW. Face it, with superior external technique and even though the level is quite different, it's still enough to hold on a decent time which Yideng did. And you're saying that JLFW was able to handle Greats+eagle. Well, superior internal . And the only reason ZBT/Yideng didn't show losing signs is because the battles probably didn't even last over 100 stances. I'm going to guess that you're going to argue GJ now. Well, it has been shown in the Mongol battle with 3 lackeys that JLFW can't fully utilize his potential by quite a bit since he has some cowardness(which I have some doubt you can counter, unless you come up with unreasonable arguements like WXB having potential for 50 feet attack). And his external arts flat down suck shown when his wheels broke several times and his wheels no where as forceful as Solitary Yang Finger, Divine Finger, Vacant Fist, XL18Z, etc. So GJ matching up (GJ improved more than the others since his 9 Yin is a bit faster) with JLFW is reasonable....

So what I'm saying now is Greats= JLFW at Pre 16 Years. At Post 16 Years, JLFW with more room to improve is >Greats in internal, but still far weaker external. Plus the fact that he can't utilize full potential(c'mon! yourself plus 3 buddies and you still can't take down a person equal to you?), JLFW pretty much lost his advantage.

If you ask about YG, then that's because he also had major improvements with the waves+also way better external arts+ the fact that his power is further enhanced by depression+ the fact that JLFW was caught by suprise when he thought that YG was defeated for sure.

And btw, where are the other guys? It seems like it has almost been all me and Re n Ying Ying the whole time....

[Ren Ying Ying]

This is how the growth for GJ worked. He first mastered it right? So there is this sudden increase in internal. From mastery, it would just gradually grow. It would still grow, but nowhere near when GJ first learnt 9 Yin. So, no... GJ is WAYYY above.

Thank you...exactly how I believe GJ's growth should be. However, do you know what this means? I shall explain by answering your other quotes. But please correctly me if there is something you disagree with (which i'm sure it will).

Yoh... I mentioned it before. OYF(reversed)/H7G(when he was healing) had parts of 9 Yin which is said by JY to be like QZ but way better. So they ALSO have unlimited growth, but at a rate slower than GJ because neither of them had the complete version like GJ.

Therefore, their growth rates should be much slower than GJ, right? and GJ himself has slower rate compared with his initial growrth rate according to your previous quote, rite? okay, hold that thought.

[quote=WhisieJLFW's external tech is unfortunetly severe enough. Honestly, looking at wheels here.... The main reason why JLFW was able to handle Yideng,etc is because despite the considerable difference, it's not like Yideng would lose quickly. And if JLFW/Yideng were to drag on, JLFW would probably win due to endurance reasons as Yideng clearly was losing energy and feeling stressful since Solitary Yang Finger drains energy. And GJ just because GJ was near JLFW at Pre 16 Years, it doesn't mean that later JLFW and GJ are still near in internal. True, in a fight GJ would win. But I believe JLFW probably even has the highest internal in ROCH. Why? Well, the rest of the Greats (exclude YG) already reached a point where it's only gradual improvement. JLFW is in a heavily different case. In Dragon Elephant Prana Skill, each level increased literally means HUGE amounts of increase. So lets say JLFW was at Level 8 or 9 at Pre 16. At Post 16, he gets to 10, that increasement in level is naturally higher than the rest of the Greats.
[/quote]

If you believe that JLFW is >>Greats...then why are we even debating on JLFW? The whole initial point of bringing in JLFW was to show the Great's improvements because we believe them to be roughly equal (which i still do, but you apparenly think otherwise...but we can debate on whether JLFW or Great is better on another thread). And the whole point of bringing in the Greats is because we believe them equal to YG/GJ (unless you think otherwise...please do tell, cuz then we can stop this whole argument on the greats). But if you really believe JLFW>>Great...then how much JLFW improved is quite negligible in this argument about GJ/YG, isn't it?

However, it seems like I need to now lower the Greats level to the approx 70%-75%(this increasment makes a bit more sense also) of JLFW. Face it, with superior external technique and even though the level is quite different, it's still enough to hold on a decent time which Yideng did. And you're saying that JLFW was able to handle Greats+eagle. Well, superior internal . And the only reason ZBT/Yideng didn't show losing signs is because the battles probably didn't even last over 100 stances. I'm going to guess that you're going to argue GJ now. Well, it has been shown in the Mongol battle with 3 lackeys that JLFW can't fully utilize his potential by quite a bit since he has some cowardness(which I have some doubt you can counter, unless you come up with unreasonable arguements like WXB having potential for 50 feet attack). And his external arts flat down suck shown when his wheels broke several times and his wheels no where as forceful as Solitary Yang Finger, Divine Finger, Vacant Fist, XL18Z, etc. So GJ matching up (GJ improved more than the others since his 9 Yin is a bit faster) with JLFW is reasonable....

Okay, i know i said we shouldn't argue about JLFW anymore because it seems you put him in a position negligible to the argument...but i couldn't resist asking...why is JLFW still FAR weaker in technique? did i not just give you the hero's gathering where JLFW was able to match GJ's super palms? unless you're claiming that 1yang finger >> XL18Z or that in pre 16 yr JLFW>>GJ in internal energy, i don't see how the skill difference between JLFW and 1deng can be THAT big. honestly, if anything, shouldn't the difference in skill be lower???

It doesn't matter if you lower the Greats or not if you are attributing the difference to a skill problem (which i still honestly do no think it makes THAT big of a difference). Why? the same example i used last time. GJ and JLFW being even (unless you really believe that 1yang>>XL18Z...which i highly doubt). Do you want me to give stats again? okay (all percentage relative to post 16-year JLFW...and percentages assigned according to your theory), if you drop greats down to 70-75%, then at the hero's feast thing, then in pre 16 yr, the palm match between GJ & JLFW should be something like 12.5-15% (70/100=15/50). That means the Greats/GJ would be 12-15% lower in internal energy than JFLW...which obviously is very flawed b/c 1...this means JLFW has somethink like >40% more internal energy than Great/GJ when it's pretty much implied that JLFW is about the same status in internal energy as OYF & H7G and we know GJ ~ OYF. And not only does that NOT make sense, but the Greats are STILL improving twice as much according to the numbers. And this, you even confirm yourself that the greats shouldn't be improving faster than they originally do (think back to what I said about GJ).

So what I'm saying now is Greats= JLFW at Pre 16 Years. At Post 16 Years, JLFW with more room to improve is >Greats in internal, but still far weaker external. Plus the fact that he can't utilize full potential(c'mon! yourself plus 3 buddies and you still can't take down a person equal to you?), JLFW pretty much lost his advantage.

If you ask about YG, then that's because he also had major improvements with the waves+also way better external arts+ the fact that his power is further enhanced by depression+ the fact that JLFW was caught by suprise when he thought that YG was defeated for sure.

If you can attribute GJ's performance in Mongol camp, why give a different reason for JLFW in loveless valley against the great? YG, pretty much using full power was roughly around HYS's level (as seem by the battle where they threw the three junkies). And this, we are saying Skill+Power b/c although YG's palms reign superior to HYS's palms, it never said it was better than HYS's finger flick. And yet...why is he still able to take down JLFW.

(btw, I notice people say that changes in the 3rd edition states that JLFW died saving GX. YG only managed to injure him, not hurt him...but i dun know the entire happening. Do you have anything on it in detail?)

And btw, where are the other guys? It seems like it has almost been all me and Re n Ying Ying the whole time....

b/c everyone else is bored of the two of us repeating ourselves...
i feel bad for ken cheng if he's gotta keep reading this as his mod duties j/k
i feel bad for us that we keep wasting time in front of the computer debating over fictional people...and over objectiveness....lol