View Poll Results: Team Condor v Team Smiling Wanderers

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  • Team Condor wins

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  • Team Smiling Wanderers wins

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Thread: Team Condor v Team Smiling Wanderers

  1. #81
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    I hate to interrupt this very interesting thread for a vocabulary lesson, but I need to before people start to fire deviate trying to figure out what's going on:

    "objective" (adj.): Undistorted by emotion or personal bias; based on observable phenomena

    "subjective" (adj.): Taking place within the mind and modified by individual bias

    Let's get it right, people.

  2. #82
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    okay, i notice we have some disagreements on who should equal who...so i'm gonna list a bunch of equalities & my reasons. Then you can tell me whether you agree or not and what your reasons for not agreeing are (or even agreeing if they are different from mine). oh yea, just for clarification, when i say equal, i do not mean that the two have to fight for seven days and seven nights and still not make a victor, but rather the two are in the same tier and it'll take a very long one on one battle to determine the winner.
    so...

    LOCH
    HYS=H7G=OYF=1Deng (Law of Equal Greats )

    ZBT>Greats (just slightly b/c of what HYS though on Peach Island...it's not THAT important though...)

    GJ's Improvement rate>Great's Improvement Rate (well, duh.)

    Pre-16 ROCH

    GJ=OYF (palm match on the rooftop) both in internal energy & skill--although if you want to argue the fine points, this is technically some 5-6 years before the rest of the battles.

    H7G=OYF (Mt. Hua) internal energy & skill

    OYF/H7G=JLFW (mention by JY through JLFW's first disciple when he was fighting YG in hero's gathering) in internal energy

    GJ=JLFW (palm match at hero's gathering) the total of internal energy + skill

    HYS=1deng=OYF=H7G (Law of the Equal Greats... )

    In summary GJ=Greats=JLFW

    post-16 ROCH

    YG=HYS (palm match with three "stooges" in the middle) internal energy & skill (note, HYS's finger flick is better than his palms...so although his palms are weaker than YG's palms, it never said that his finger flick was weaker than YG's palms)

    YG=ZBT (fist fight to try get ZBT to meet Yin Gu) skill & energy

    HYS=1Deng=ZBT (commented by JLFW of HYS's pebble...and Law of the Equal Greats )

    YG=GJ (for arguments sake...so we don't go off into another YG vs GJ debate).

    in conclusion, GJ=YG=Greats/ZBT
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 07-21-06 at 04:43 AM.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    I hate to interrupt this very interesting thread for a vocabulary lesson, but I need to before people start to fire deviate trying to figure out what's going on:

    "objective" (adj.): Undistorted by emotion or personal bias; based on observable phenomena

    "subjective" (adj.): Taking place within the mind and modified by individual bias

    Let's get it right, people.

    lol..oh dear, can't beleive i didn't notice that....how embarrassing

    lucky i am not an english major...hehehehe
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 07-21-06 at 04:33 AM.

  4. #84
    Senior Member Phoenix_Aquaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    I hate to interrupt this very interesting thread for a vocabulary lesson, but I need to before people start to fire deviate trying to figure out what's going on:

    "objective" (adj.): Undistorted by emotion or personal bias; based on observable phenomena

    "subjective" (adj.): Taking place within the mind and modified by individual bias

    Let's get it right, people.
    Thank you, Ken. I fire-deviated already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    And if JLFW/Yideng were to drag on, JLFW would probably win due to endurance reasons as Yideng clearly was losing energy and feeling stressful since Solitary Yang Finger drains energy.
    Not true. It was his old age that puts him at a disadvantage.

    Can you guys do off with those maths? My head is spinning with those figures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
    why is JLFW still FAR weaker in technique? did i not just give you the hero's gathering where JLFW was able to match GJ's super palms? unless you're claiming that 1yang finger >> XL18Z or that in pre 16 yr JLFW>>GJ in internal energy, i don't see how the skill difference between JLFW and 1deng can be THAT big. honestly, if anything, shouldn't the difference in skill be lower???
    他本力远较郭靖为大、功力也深,掌法武技却颇有不及。郭靖顺势退后,卸去敌人的猛劲,
    以免受伤。

    There's an irony here. JY did mention about JLFW being slightly weaker in technique. However his internal energy is WAY above GJ as he says 远较郭靖为大.And I believe it is impossible for WAY high internal energy = slightly better techniques. So the both of you shouldn't argue about this due to some paradoxical statements made by JY himself.

  5. #85
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    There's an irony here. JY did mention about JLFW being slightly weaker in technique. However his internal energy is WAY above GJ as he says 远较郭靖为大.And I believe it is impossible for WAY high internal energy = slightly better techniques. So the both of you shouldn't argue about this due to some paradoxical statements made by JY himself.
    His inner power was not mentioned to be higher then GJ's, its only stated that his physical strength is much stronger then GJ 他本力远较郭靖为大, and his inner power was deep.功力也深
    wow..04-08....4 years just like that..time flies..

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
    okay, i notice we have some disagreements on who should equal who...so i'm gonna list a bunch of equalities & my reasons. Then you can tell me whether you agree or not and what your reasons for not agreeing are (or even agreeing if they are different from mine). oh yea, just for clarification, when i say equal, i do not mean that the two have to fight for seven days and seven nights and still not make a victor, but rather the two are in the same tier and it'll take a very long one on one battle to determine the winner.
    so...

    LOCH
    HYS=H7G=OYF=1Deng (Law of Equal Greats )

    ZBT>Greats (just slightly b/c of what HYS though on Peach Island...it's not THAT important though...)

    GJ's Improvement rate>Great's Improvement Rate (well, duh.)

    Pre-16 ROCH

    GJ=OYF (palm match on the rooftop) both in internal energy & skill--although if you want to argue the fine points, this is technically some 5-6 years before the rest of the battles.

    H7G=OYF (Mt. Hua) internal energy & skill

    OYF/H7G=JLFW (mention by JY through JLFW's first disciple when he was fighting YG in hero's gathering) in internal energy

    GJ=JLFW (palm match at hero's gathering) the total of internal energy + skill

    HYS=1deng=OYF=H7G (Law of the Equal Greats... )

    In summary GJ=Greats=JLFW

    post-16 ROCH

    YG=HYS (palm match with three "stooges" in the middle) internal energy & skill (note, HYS's finger flick is better than his palms...so although his palms are weaker than YG's palms, it never said that his finger flick was weaker than YG's palms)

    YG=ZBT (fist fight to try get ZBT to meet Yin Gu) skill & energy

    HYS=1Deng=ZBT (commented by JLFW of HYS's pebble...and Law of the Equal Greats )

    YG=GJ (for arguments sake...so we don't go off into another YG vs GJ debate).

    in conclusion, GJ=YG=Greats/ZBT
    A few flaws. GJ being stated equal to OYF is Pre 22 Years ROCH because GJ had a faster growth rate, and therefore made up the old 20% difference. THEN it's Pre 16 Years ROCH which has a 6 years difference from when YG was 14 at Pre 22. During this time period, it's enough for GJ to surpass the other Great by a small margin. And JY still says that H7G may not be able to beat GJ anymore. So in theory, Pre 16 Years ROCH is GJ=JLFW overall excluding the factors of bad fighting ability and bad external. The main reason why JLFW was equal to GJ at Hero's Gathering and weaker at Mongol battle is because of one word- confiedence. JLFW at Mongol battle already tasted the power of XL18Z and therefore didn't dare to go full out. At Hero's Gathering, he underestimated GJ. JLFW clearly only thought H7G, HYS, OYF, WCY, Yideng may be a threat to him and thought GJ was one of those emerging new generations. And therefore when he matched GJ 2 times, he went full out without cowardness (because he thought GJ would lose) and therefore was able to utilize near his full potential and match GJ.
    Therefore so far it's like this:
    Pre 22 Years ROCH:
    1. All Greats plus GJ are equals. JLFW is unknown.
    Pre 16 Years.
    1. Greats all equal.
    2. GJ=JLFW (assuming JLFW can utilize his full ability)
    3, And GJ>Greats by a small margin.
    4. JLFW>Greats (once again assuming he can utilize his full ability).
    Post 16 Years: Again a few noticeable flaws. We all know that the sadder YG is, the more power right? Well, which one do you think YG would be more sad about? YG could not meet XLN, but he still has that hope inside him and thinks XLN is still alive. OR YG is about to die and not be able to see XLN... FOREVER! I think it is the 2nd one. Therefore: YG's palm energy against JLFW > when YG matched with HYS/ZBT. And with this, YG>HYS and generally, it is said that YG can be considered one tier higher at peak level. As for ZBT's battle, YG practically warned ZBT to watch out for melancholic sad palm. Even though ZBT don't know what it is, ZBT at least still has a guard up in his mind for something powerful. If YG had suddenly used it or constantly attacked and attacked at a constant rate, can ZBT take it? Heck, ZBT was struggling to dissolve each stance. And after ZBT dissolved, YG would then give a moment of breath (though not a lot) for ZBT and annouce again the next attack. If YG had constantly attacked, I would bet YG would win. And in theory, this is not even YG maxing out his palm energy(JLFW battle was probably the only one). HYS=Yideng is true. Though the same tier, ZBT may be a bit better. However, it's overall still HYS=Yideng=ZBT. And let's just say GJ=YG in case another battle erupts. However, if we're talking about YG against JLFW, then YG's palm should surpass GJ at that brief moment. HYS commented on YG matching near GJ's power right? Well, since YG's power increased by a considerable amount, YG should be >GJ at that brief moment when YG though he would lose XLN forever.
    So.......
    1. Post 16 Years ROCH:
    2. ZBT=HYS=Yideng (though ZBT surpasses barely)
    3. GJ=YG (though most likely YG>GJ at the moment of near death)
    4. YG>Greats
    5. GJ>Greats
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出一阳指功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的一阳指功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
    Thank you...exactly how I believe GJ's growth should be. However, do you know what this means? I shall explain by answering your other quotes. But please correctly me if there is something you disagree with (which i'm sure it will).



    Therefore, their growth rates should be much slower than GJ, right? and GJ himself has slower rate compared with his initial growrth rate according to your previous quote, rite? okay, hold that thought.



    Okay, i know i said we shouldn't argue about JLFW anymore because it seems you put him in a position negligible to the argument...but i couldn't resist asking...why is JLFW still FAR weaker in technique? did i not just give you the hero's gathering where JLFW was able to match GJ's super palms? unless you're claiming that 1yang finger >> XL18Z or that in pre 16 yr JLFW>>GJ in internal energy, i don't see how the skill difference between JLFW and 1deng can be THAT big. honestly, if anything, shouldn't the difference in skill be lower???

    It doesn't matter if you lower the Greats or not if you are attributing the difference to a skill problem (which i still honestly do no think it makes THAT big of a difference). Why? the same example i used last time. GJ and JLFW being even (unless you really believe that 1yang>>XL18Z...which i highly doubt). Do you want me to give stats again? okay (all percentage relative to post 16-year JLFW...and percentages assigned according to your theory), if you drop greats down to 70-75%, then at the hero's feast thing, then in pre 16 yr, the palm match between GJ & JLFW should be something like 12.5-15% (70/100=15/50). That means the Greats/GJ would be 12-15% lower in internal energy than JFLW...which obviously is very flawed b/c 1...this means JLFW has somethink like >40% more internal energy than Great/GJ when it's pretty much implied that JLFW is about the same status in internal energy as OYF & H7G and we know GJ ~ OYF. And not only does that NOT make sense, but the Greats are STILL improving twice as much according to the numbers. And this, you even confirm yourself that the greats shouldn't be improving faster than they originally do (think back to what I said about GJ).



    If you can attribute GJ's performance in Mongol camp, why give a different reason for JLFW in loveless valley against the great? YG, pretty much using full power was roughly around HYS's level (as seem by the battle where they threw the three junkies). And this, we are saying Skill+Power b/c although YG's palms reign superior to HYS's palms, it never said it was better than HYS's finger flick. And yet...why is he still able to take down JLFW.

    (btw, I notice people say that changes in the 3rd edition states that JLFW died saving GX. YG only managed to injure him, not hurt him...but i dun know the entire happening. Do you have anything on it in detail?)


    b/c everyone else is bored of the two of us repeating ourselves...
    i feel bad for ken cheng if he's gotta keep reading this as his mod duties j/k
    i feel bad for us that we keep wasting time in front of the computer debating over fictional people...and over objectiveness....lol
    I explained some of the counters in my previous arguement regarding who equals who.

    I mentioned it in my previous post, JLFW was more confiedent and therefore went full out in comparision to when he was at the Mongol camp. Going full out means utilizing full potential and therefore JLFW was able to match GJ. OYF/H7G~JLFW is true, but not exactly equals. When Da Er Ba saw his disciple's condition, he though t that the person who damaged them has 2X the internal (well obviously because H7G+OYF), but do you seriously expect it to be exactly 2X? Relative yes, but not exactly. The overall art is equal, but not believing in yourself is a huge problem+his weaker external at the very least.
    If you take in account my previous post, the stats won't come out the same.
    Part of your 3rd paragraph was also explained in my previous post. What I didn't explain yet. You ask why JLFW was not the same as in Mongol camp at Loveless Valley 16 years later. Well... JLFW got his confiedence BACK. Think about it, JLFW mastered level 10, thinking to himself that no one can beat him again. 但既已自信天下无敌手,即令练到第十一层,也已多余。This is the quote.
    The biggest flaw in your stats is that you're not taking account of the 6 years difference when YG was 14 and 20. OYF=JLFW. GJ>OYF after 6 years. GJ>JLFW. Sigh, changes again. Using JLFW scale, 50% JLFW= 50% of JLFW Greats. GJ is 55-60%. I know.... you're going to say I said GJ's external tech stuff. But as much as it is, JLFW with confiedence at least can TAKE and dissolve it(and at this time, JLFW had confiedence, so he's utilizing near 100% of his ability at that time), though not neccesary beat GJ's palm. Let's say JLFW got 2X improvement. JLFW is now 100%. Greats still increase 70%. Reasonable? Yes.... GJ improves even more to 90%%. Reasonable? Yes...... And just to tell you why the 20% difference is because GJ made up the 20% difference in the 14 years between ROCH/LOCH. So 16 years would likely produce that same amount. And as big as a difference there is in internal, JLFW with inferior external(the reason for GJ is CONFIEDENCE, it makes a big difference in no matter what case. Tests(I personally experience this), martial arts, etc. is not going to overwhelm the Greats within 100 stances(which none lasted that long). And though he has confiedence, he still ain't going to beat them within 100 stances. GJ at 80% of Great (in LOCH) can last a considerable time WITH equal external. So I don't see why the Greats at 70% with better external can also last a good time.
    Last edited by Whsie; 07-22-06 at 12:29 AM.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出一阳指功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的一阳指功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  8. #88
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    A few flaws. GJ being stated equal to OYF is Pre 22 Years ROCH because GJ had a faster growth rate, and therefore made up the old 20% difference. THEN it's Pre 16 Years ROCH which has a 6 years difference from when YG was 14 at Pre 22. During this time period, it's enough for GJ to surpass the other Great by a small margin. And JY still says that H7G may not be able to beat GJ anymore. So in theory, Pre 16 Years ROCH is GJ=JLFW overall excluding the factors of bad fighting ability and bad external. The main reason why JLFW was equal to GJ at Hero's Gathering and weaker at Mongol battle is because of one word- confiedence. JLFW at Mongol battle already tasted the power of XL18Z and therefore didn't dare to go full out. At Hero's Gathering, he underestimated GJ. JLFW clearly only thought H7G, HYS, OYF, WCY, Yideng may be a threat to him and thought GJ was one of those emerging new generations. And therefore when he matched GJ 2 times, he went full out without cowardness (because he thought GJ would lose) and therefore was able to utilize near his full potential and match GJ.
    Therefore so far it's like this:
    Pre 22 Years ROCH:
    1. All Greats plus GJ are equals. JLFW is unknown.
    Pre 16 Years.
    1. Greats all equal.
    2. GJ=JLFW (assuming JLFW can utilize his full ability)
    3, And GJ>Greats by a small margin.
    4. JLFW>Greats (once again assuming he can utilize his full ability).
    Let's deal with pre 16 yr ROCH first.

    okay, let's clear up a few things. The pre 22yr battle between GJ & OYF implied they are pretty much equal in skill and internal energy, right? Unless you think GJ has better skill and is younger so he had advantage (but personally, i think it's pretty much equal).

    Next, it was stated both when YG was in Mt. Hua and during the hero's gathering that OYF & H7G's internal energy are not below JLFW (i'd give you quotes...but you'll have to give me a good site for chinese wuxia text )...so hence, assuming all the greats are around the same lvl (unless you really believe HYS & 1 deng to be much higher than that of OYF/H7G), they cannot be lower in internal energy than GJ or JLFW. Neither then, should they be lower in skil compared to JLFW (and according to you, JLFW sucks in skills) so if anything, the Greats should then be better than JLFW who is equal to GJ???? But did we not just settle that the greats should NOT have a higher improvement rate than GJ? and since some 6 years ago GJ was already equal to a great, he shouldn't be lower than a great 6 years later, right? hence, this is why i believe to wipe out the contradictions invovled, shouldn't we just just GJ, JLFW, & Greats about equal? At least equal enough where we don't see some 10%, 20%, or even 5% differences (which yes, do in fact matter in Great lvl fights)

    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    Post 16 Years: Again a few noticeable flaws. We all know that the sadder YG is, the more power right? Well, which one do you think YG would be more sad about? YG could not meet XLN, but he still has that hope inside him and thinks XLN is still alive. OR YG is about to die and not be able to see XLN... FOREVER! I think it is the 2nd one. Therefore: YG's palm energy against JLFW > when YG matched with HYS/ZBT. And with this, YG>HYS and generally, it is said that YG can be considered one tier higher at peak level. As for ZBT's battle, YG practically warned ZBT to watch out for melancholic sad palm. Even though ZBT don't know what it is, ZBT at least still has a guard up in his mind for something powerful. If YG had suddenly used it or constantly attacked and attacked at a constant rate, can ZBT take it? Heck, ZBT was struggling to dissolve each stance. And after ZBT dissolved, YG would then give a moment of breath (though not a lot) for ZBT and annouce again the next attack. If YG had constantly attacked, I would bet YG would win. And in theory, this is not even YG maxing out his palm energy(JLFW battle was probably the only one). HYS=Yideng is true. Though the same tier, ZBT may be a bit better. However, it's overall still HYS=Yideng=ZBT. And let's just say GJ=YG in case another battle erupts. However, if we're talking about YG against JLFW, then YG's palm should surpass GJ at that brief moment. HYS commented on YG matching near GJ's power right? Well, since YG's power increased by a considerable amount, YG should be >GJ at that brief moment when YG though he would lose XLN forever.
    So.......
    1. Post 16 Years ROCH:
    2. ZBT=HYS=Yideng (though ZBT surpasses barely)
    3. GJ=YG (though most likely YG>GJ at the moment of near death)
    4. YG>Greats
    5. GJ>Greats
    i'm sorry, perhaps i'm missing something, but are you sure the sadder YG is the more power his palms are? i just thought it was he could only utilize it when he's sad but power was never said to be un affected. unless it's a third version change?

    YG was not playing with ZBT...he was indeed trying to fight as hard as he can (not to mention ZBT was fighting only with one fist for a while as not to be unfair). Anywayz, yea, it said that when they were fighting in the begining he was actually a little conservative b/c ZBT's old age, but after 6 stances he knew he was gonna lose if he didn't go all out...so he did.
    Same thing with HYS. He was conservative at first, but he knew he couldn't get HYS to show off the palms he learned from "south sea nun" unless he put full effort in...and so he did. Hence, i'm pretty sure that at least when he fought the two (not EXTREMELY sad according to you), they were pretty much on equal lvls. (i guess the first step is to settle whether his emotions play a role in his power or not).

    btw, something else that came to mind--it was said that YG knew his internal power
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 07-22-06 at 01:38 AM.

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    I explained some of the counters in my previous arguement regarding who equals who.

    I mentioned it in my previous post, JLFW was more confiedent and therefore went full out in comparision to when he was at the Mongol camp. Going full out means utilizing full potential and therefore JLFW was able to match GJ. OYF/H7G~JLFW is true, but not exactly equals. When Da Er Ba saw his disciple's condition, he though t that the person who damaged them has 2X the internal (well obviously because H7G+OYF), but do you seriously expect it to be exactly 2X? Relative yes, but not exactly. The overall art is equal, but not believing in yourself is a huge problem+his weaker external at the very least.
    If you take in account my previous post, the stats won't come out the same.
    mind you giving your stats again, b/c as i stated in my previous post...there is NO way that GJ/Greats can be THAT much LOWER or HIGHER than JLFW in pre-16 year. And taking in the stats and reassigning them again...it's impossible for Yi deng to put up a fight with JLFW if they had something like 20-30% internal energy (and no way 'skills" would make that much of a difference).


    Part of your 3rd paragraph was also explained in my previous post. What I didn't explain yet. You ask why JLFW was not the same as in Mongol camp at Loveless Valley 16 years later. Well... JLFW got his confiedence BACK. Think about it, JLFW mastered level 10, thinking to himself that no one can beat him again. 但既已自信天下无敌手,即令练到第十一层,也已多余。This is the quote.
    The biggest flaw in your stats is that you're not taking account of the 6 years difference when YG was 14 and 20. OYF=JLFW. GJ>OYF after 6 years. GJ>JLFW. Sigh, changes again. Using JLFW scale, 50% JLFW= 50% of JLFW Greats. GJ is 55-60%. I know.... you're going to say I said GJ's external tech stuff. But as much as it is, JLFW with confiedence at least can TAKE and dissolve it(and at this time, JLFW had confiedence, so he's utilizing near 100% of his ability at that time), though not neccesary beat GJ's palm.
    Aren't you contradicting yourself? You've already agreed and even explained why GJ should equal to JLFW and now you are saying when JLFW is 50, GJ is 55-60? shouldn't that mean GJ>JLFW? is that what you are saying now? The 6 yr difference i argued in previous post....
    i dont get it. are you saying GJ>JLFW or JLFW=GJ 16 yr? are you talking about power or overall? cuz the text definitely suggest they are equal in overall, and definitely do not suggest GJ>JLFW in internal power.

    Quote Originally Posted by whsie
    Let's say JLFW got 2X improvement. JLFW is now 100%. Greats still increase 70%. Reasonable? Yes.... GJ improves even more to 90%%. Reasonable? Yes...... And just to tell you why the 20% difference is because GJ made up the 20% difference in the 14 years between ROCH/LOCH. So 16 years would likely produce that same amount. And as big as a difference there is in internal, JLFW with inferior external(the reason for GJ is CONFIEDENCE, it makes a big difference in no matter what case. Tests(I personally experience this), martial arts, etc. is not going to overwhelm the Greats within 100 stances(which none lasted that long). And though he has confiedence, he still ain't going to beat them within 100 stances. GJ at 80% of Great (in LOCH) can last a considerable time WITH equal external. So I don't see why the Greats at 70% with better external can also last a good time.
    okay, now you think the greats to JLFW like GJ was to the Greats in LOCH (or even less according to you since you claim greats were something like 70% of JLFW while GJ is 80% Greats in LOCH)??? It was said that at the "loveless valley" JLFW did not want to fight with ZBT b/c he knew they couldn't settle the fight inside of at least couple hundred stances (and it did not even imply that he would win). On the other hand, GJ was nearly about to faint when HYS finished his 300 stances, not to mention HYS was only going 70% for almost half the time.

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    first of all, before I say anything else, I do have to mention the reason why I keep on changing the stat chart is because you actually are changing things in my mind, but I still feel it's reasonable for Greats to match up.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出一阳指功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的一阳指功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    first of all, before I say anything else, I do have to mention the reason why I keep on changing the stat chart is because you actually are changing things in my mind, but I still feel it's reasonable for Greats to match up.

    that means i'm doing a good job messing with our head then? heheheh j/k

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
    Let's deal with pre 16 yr ROCH first.

    okay, let's clear up a few things. The pre 22yr battle between GJ & OYF implied they are pretty much equal in skill and internal energy, right? Unless you think GJ has better skill and is younger so he had advantage (but personally, i think it's pretty much equal).

    Next, it was stated both when YG was in Mt. Hua and during the hero's gathering that OYF & H7G's internal energy are not below JLFW (i'd give you quotes...but you'll have to give me a good site for chinese wuxia text )...so hence, assuming all the greats are around the same lvl (unless you really believe HYS & 1 deng to be much higher than that of OYF/H7G), they cannot be lower in internal energy than GJ or JLFW. Neither then, should they be lower in skil compared to JLFW (and according to you, JLFW sucks in skills) so if anything, the Greats should then be better than JLFW who is equal to GJ???? But did we not just settle that the greats should NOT have a higher improvement rate than GJ? and since some 6 years ago GJ was already equal to a great, he shouldn't be lower than a great 6 years later, right? hence, this is why i believe to wipe out the contradictions invovled, shouldn't we just just GJ, JLFW, & Greats about equal? At least equal enough where we don't see some 10%, 20%, or even 5% differences (which yes, do in fact matter in Great lvl fights)



    i'm sorry, perhaps i'm missing something, but are you sure the sadder YG is the more power his palms are? i just thought it was he could only utilize it when he's sad but power was never said to be un affected. unless it's a third version change?

    YG was not playing with ZBT...he was indeed trying to fight as hard as he can (not to mention ZBT was fighting only with one fist for a while as not to be unfair). Same thing with HYS. He was conservative at first, but he knew he couldn't get HYS to show off the palms he learned from "south sea nun" unless he put full effort in...and so he did. Hence, i'm pretty sure that at least when he fought the two (not EXTREMELY sad according to you), they were pretty much on equal lvls. (i guess the first step is to settle whether his emotions play a role in his power or not).
    They are equals. GJ=OYF at Pre 22 Years is stated. 6 Years later. GJ>OYF, though not by a large margin. The reason I assigned 60% will be said later. I know....JLFW is literally around OYF/H7G without much of difference in internal. And I never doubted that. I just said, it doesn't neccesary mean exactly the same, it could mean a difference of 1-5% and Da Er Ba obviously was just reading from the "relative" 2X internal from OYF/H7G of JLFW. And quite the same reason, of GJ>OYF with higher improvement rate overall and the 6 years improvement is the reason I believe GJ is above JLFW now(since JLFW was equal to OYF). I think you may have misread my post because this was what I was saying earlier.... And 6 years later, GJ should be better. And therefore GJ should be better than JLFW... Dude... I was saying this earlier....all you did was just made me repeat myself.
    It's actually logic for sad palm. Think about it.... For instance you failed a test and you're a person absolutely obsessed about grades. You're depressed with the bad grade you got. So let's say there's a 1-5 scale for sadness. That "depressed" you would be placed at 2 or 3. One of your close relatives die, that is at probably 4. You see the difference in sadness. So you honestly think that a semi sadness would produce the same effect as a 4 level sadness? So what you're saying is that all you have to be is a litte sad and you're got the enhancement. Honestly, sounds quite ridiculous to me. Maybe we can use a poll on this. 但这路掌法身与心合 Seeing this, I'm more convinced that power is influenced by how sad you are since heart/palm are "connected".
    ZBT/YG fight: You know the fight is split into 2 sections right? 1. YG was fighting full strength except..... he wasn't using Sad Palm. Want to know why? Well YG gave ZBT 4 palms announcing their names. And these 4 obviously didn't show up until YG started to announce them or else ZBT who have some sort of prepartion. As for the remaining 13 palms, they didn't show up too because ZBT would know if they are repetitive from the 1st half. And I have the impression that YG only started to use Sad Palm when he announced that he would use Sad Palm. Well, what did YG use before? Most likely a combination all the types of palm learned from the past except they are enhanced by the sea training. Those were described as 狂涛怒潮中所苦练的掌法. Why didn't JY just say Sad Palm if YG was using Sad Palm? And Sad Palm obviously was giving ZBT much more trouble. So ZBT= or >YG was when YG was using I guess you call Wave Palm. Giving ZBT so much trouble was Sad Palm. If you don't believe me, go to that section and read it and ask yourself if you are under the impression that those 2 halfs were the same palm style. And based on the looks of the 2nd half, it seems like YG completly turned the ties when ZBT using 2 arms still had trouble and took plenty of time to dissolve YG's palm.
    HYS/YG fight: Unfortunetly, I think YG was a bit contradicting himself here. This was what YG was saying 我若非出全力以赴,引不出他学自南海神尼的掌法. So YG is saying that he needs to use full power right? Well, no. This was what HYS was thinking- 黄药师回了数掌,只觉那三人冲过来的势头便似潮水一般,一个浪头方过,第二个更高的浪头又扑了过来,心想: 这少年的掌力一掌强似一掌,确是武林中的奇才! And this was written after YG said he would go full power. If YG was going full power, how in the world is YG's palm getting stronger and stronger? That only means YG isn't neccesary going full power. And later of course, the power got even stronger and HYS had to change to Divine Flick. Wow, some "full power" when your palm power only gets stronger and stronger...
    Even though I can techically argue YG having even stronger palms than the ones showed to HYS, but JY's quote of Divine Flick=Sad Palm would contradict it. But just in case you were wondering- YG and HYS were fighting. HYS had to overpower YG's energy to send it back at YG and YG had to do the same to send the power back. Well, HYS dissolved the energy. So...... YG can't overpower it back because there is no longer energy to overpower unless he wants to start this whole thing again. So you can say that YG didn't show everything he got yet and HYS used his incomplete info to rank it with GJ's palm. However, there's that JY's quote nearby that most contradicts it. Logically speaking, it doesn't make sense.
    Last edited by Whsie; 07-22-06 at 02:11 AM.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出一阳指功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的一阳指功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
    that means i'm doing a good job messing with our head then? heheheh j/k
    As much as I don't want to concur, I have to say yes.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出一阳指功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的一阳指功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
    mind you giving your stats again, b/c as i stated in my previous post...there is NO way that GJ/Greats can be THAT much LOWER or HIGHER than JLFW in pre-16 year. And taking in the stats and reassigning them again...it's impossible for Yi deng to put up a fight with JLFW if they had something like 20-30% internal energy (and no way 'skills" would make that much of a difference).



    Aren't you contradicting yourself? You've already agreed and even explained why GJ should equal to JLFW and now you are saying when JLFW is 50, GJ is 55-60? shouldn't that mean GJ>JLFW? is that what you are saying now? The 6 yr difference i argued in previous post....
    i dont get it. are you saying GJ>JLFW or JLFW=GJ 16 yr? are you talking about power or overall? cuz the text definitely suggest they are equal in overall, and definitely do not suggest GJ>JLFW in internal power.



    okay, now you think the greats to JLFW like GJ was to the Greats in LOCH (or even less according to you since you claim greats were something like 70% of JLFW while GJ is 80% Greats in LOCH)??? It was said that at the "loveless valley" JLFW did not want to fight with ZBT b/c he knew they couldn't settle the fight inside of at least couple hundred stances (and it did not even imply that he would win). On the other hand, GJ was nearly about to faint when HYS finished his 300 stances, not to mention HYS was only going 70% for almost half the time.
    Unfortunetly for me, I do have to admit that I'm changing the stats to more logical ways.
    Reasons why Yideng could last a ok time.
    Reading that section, I don't have the impression that the mini battle lasted to 100 stance. It seemed a bit short.
    Even with 70%, you can still at least 100 stance with superior external technique. Do remember that Yideng most likely got his Solitary Yang Finger to the highest level (based on power/description and JY's compliments) that was only talked about and not seen in DGSD. And furthermore, he combined it into Pre Heaven, dramatically enhancing his style/technique. Certainly more impressive than palms just backed completly off of internal. And btw, Yideng was losing actually in long term. I have the impression that Yideng was utilzing Solitary Yang Finger to its full potential. As said by ZBT to GJ about WCY using Solitary Yang finger, this technique if used to max ability is very draining for the internal and add in the fact that Yideng is extremely old making him have a lower endurance. Having superior technique does help quite a lot. Think of it as this: In LOCH, GJ fought OYF at the Mongol camp. GJ used Seeing Dragon on the Field. OYF wasn't able to overwhelm him anymore with superior internal... OYF obviously has weaker palm stances than GJ yet GJ can match him in that area despite the difference in internal. Another example: the great XF. Though MRB is = to XF. But why is MRB overwhelmed by XF's palm? That is because of 2 reasons. XF specifically trained in palm area (likewise Yideng specifically trained in the finger area)+ the fact his internal basis is also a Shaolin palm internal. So despite the similiarty, MRB was still overwhelmed because XF specifally trained in palm+his XL18Z was also better than what MRB had. So.... yeah... if external tech is trully that great, it can make up a chunk. And in Yideng's case, at least help him last for a medium time.

    Yes. That's why I gave that post saying that I'll be changing stats around to see which ones make more sense.
    What I'm saying. OYF = GJ at Pre 22. GJ>OYF due to faster rate at Pre 16. OYF = JLFW. GJ>JLFW.
    Need to SLEEP now
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出一阳指功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的一阳指功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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    i need to study for now...won't make a long *** post...but i do find these two quote here awfully wrong...

    And therefore GJ should be better than JLFW... Dude... I was saying this earlier....all you did was just made me repeat myself.
    i thought we concured that GJ=JLFW 16 yr previous? well, at least according to GJ, they were pretty damn evenly matched. (didn't you even write a section yourself explaining that because he's using full power, JLFW can match GJ????)

    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    Reading that section, I don't have the impression that the mini battle lasted to 100 stance. It seemed a bit short.
    JLFW said about ZBT that if they were to fight, it would last at least a couple hundred stances...i wasn't refering to YiDeng. But since ZBT roughly=YiDeng, i guess it also applies to YiDeng

    if not replied...i'll just edit this post later
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 07-22-06 at 02:48 AM.

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    ok.... you know what? I'm retiring in any rankings of sort for LOCH/ROCH period. It seeems overall JY is pretty inconsistent after I thought more about it.
    What I originally said was:
    Pre 16 Years
    GJ>JLFW
    Post 16, JLFW have more room for improvement.
    JLFW in internal>GJ
    Overall... no. Overall most likely GJ=JLFW.

    Techniacally speaking.... ZBT>Yideng. The reasons why ZBT can last longer: 1. Vacant Fist is no where as energy draining as Solitary Yang Finger (but the power is also a lot weaker). 2. ZBT was always slightly ahead of the others with 9 Yin stored in his body(though he doesn't want it to) as shown with ZBT pwning (when he used 9 Yin arts by accident) HYS in LOCH period. And Yideng had 2 birds on top of JLFW distracting him which is sufficient distraction having to do 2 things at once. And you know top fighters can't be distracted.

    Anyhow, I can't speak anymore because of self retirement in this category.
    Last edited by Whsie; 07-22-06 at 02:32 PM.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出一阳指功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的一阳指功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    ok.... you know what? I'm retiring in any rankings of sort for LOCH/ROCH period. It seeems overall JY is pretty inconsistent after I thought more about it.
    What I originally said was:
    Pre 16 Years
    GJ>JLFW
    Post 16, JLFW have more room for improvement.
    JLFW in internal>GJ
    Overall... no. Overall most likely GJ=JLFW.

    Techniacally speaking.... ZBT>Yideng. The reasons why ZBT can last longer: 1. Vacant Fist is no where as energy draining as Solitary Yang Finger (but the power is also a lot weaker). 2. ZBT was always slightly ahead of the others with 9 Yin stored in his body(though he doesn't want it to) as shown with ZBT pwning (when he used 9 Yin arts by accident) HYS in LOCH period. And Yideng had 2 birds on top of JLFW distracting him which is sufficient distraction having to do 2 things at once. And you know top fighters can't be distracted.

    Anyhow, I can't speak anymore because of self retirement in this category.
    yes, although we'd all like to believe JY is a god, he is only human afterall. the shame. oh well, i guess this brings a standstill for the moment if we can't settle the power of the greats which can't settle how much can they really improve which ultimately settles whether GJ/YG can beat 2 LOCH greats easily, which then settles the argument (oh my gosh, so many deviations! ). saves me the need for another long *** post...
    more time to study
    less excuse to procrastinate!

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    I said I retired from LOCH/ROCH Great Retirement, but I never mentioned HSDS....
    JY pretty much mentioned that YG, Jue Yuan, GJ = ZWJ right?

    Well, going back to H7G again. It's reasonable to say that H7G surpassed the 10 feet mark, but definitely not to the 20 feet mark. H7G was most likely using 80% of his ability due to 2 facts: 1. He saw HYS losing at 70%. 2. He needed to recupperate from OYF's injury months ago, so while he was recovering, the other Greats had a small advantage on him. So it most likely is ~ 80%. Using 80%, he fires 10 feet. Since JY says outside, it could be a bit more, but not more or else JY would say zhang xu or zhang and more. So H7G most likely was performing 10-12 feet at 80%.

    I remember you saying that H7G can possibly perform more. However, I dare to bet H7G at 80% firing 10-13 is not able to fire 20 when he is at 100%. You do know that to extend your palm blast from 10 feet to 20 feet takes a lot of more internal right? I do have the feeling that you will say no(seeing the way you argue).

    So take this example. LQS one of the 3 Xiao Yiao Elders fired somwhere between 40-50 feet (let's use 45 feet since it's most ideal) at XZ, TSTL at this is most likely LQS trying her hardest because as soon as she got within range, she fired. XF firing 3 consective got somewhere between 30-40 feet. XF was also most likely trying as hard a possible since he was trying to extend his palm energy as far as possible to get DCQ. Now, some evidence that I can think of for LQS>XF in farther palm range. Well. JMZ ~ XF due to fist exchanges amoung XYS/MRB. Well, JMZ<LQS due to a few reasons 1. JMZ only mastered 7/8th of Xiao Wu Xiaong gong and this is JMZ's strongest type of internal. (3rd edition only) 2. JMZ didn't master Xiao Wu Xiong Gong nearly as long as LQS. I'm not sure how long JMZ learned this internal, but JMZ is 40 something years old and LQS started learning in her childhood so that means even if JMZ started learning when he was a baby, JMZ would have about 40 something years of practice. LQS is 90 something and she started learning when she was in her 10s, so that's 80 years of practice. Nearly 2X amount of practice. Now, I not saying LQS 2X JMZ, but the difference should be pretty noticeable. And since JMZ~XF...... that would also mean LQS has a considerable difference in internal to further extend that palm blast by 10 feet. Now... I have a feeling that you would say that extending the palm from 10 feet to 20 feet is easier than from 40 feet- 50 feet. Well... even if it's easier, it shouldn't be that a 20% remaining in internal can increase it from 10 to 20 feet. That sounds just absolutely ridiculous. If H7G was to use 100%, he most likely would extend it to about 14-16 feet max. But extending to 20 feet is too unreasonable.

    Now, I can think of 2 possible examples. 1. Is HYS exchanging PALMS with YG. This is how it works. As said there's a 20-50 (several zhang and 5 zhang is max since said so by Jin Yong, which haven't been contradicted.) feet difference, but most ideally would be 35 feet since it's the mid range. This is how it worked. First, YG used palm WIND (zhang feng) to trap the 3 lackeys into the palm wind. Then he used palm BLAST(zhang li) to fire it at HYS. Each time HYS gets the palm blast, HYS has to send a stronger palm blast and overwhelm YG's previous palm energy and then send it all the way back for 35 feet for YG to hit. At the same time, HYS also has to carry these 3 lackeys inside the palm blast (within protection of palm wind created by YG earlier). Either way, this shows that YG/HYS can use palm blasts LDA of minimum of 20 feet. If we were to use this minimum 20 feet(and most likely more around 35 feet), then it would still be considerably greater than LOCH period Greats by a good margin.
    Since I said that I would not rank LOCH/ROCH Greats, that example is possibly to be excluded from my example, but useable for other people.

    2. My actual one that won't break my retirement rule(and retirement is actually between books of LOCH with LOCH and ROCH with ROCH). Dunan of the 3 monks is the weakest directly said by JY. Using Semuru Mountain Palm (1 of the 72 supreme art), he fired zhang xu or practically saying 1 zhang and more and that is practically saying somewhere between 1.001 zhang-1.999 zhang. And most ideally, 1.5 zhang or 15 feet. Dunan was most likely using about 80-90% of his internal on Yin Tian Zheng since Yin Tian Zheng was the main one down there fighting internal with internal. Yang Xiao was on the outside doing all sorts of weapon attacks that acts like a distractor to Dunan. You may say that Dunan may fire even farther, that may possibly be true because though Dunan is firing most ideally 15 feet at Yin Tian Zheng, Yin Tian Zheng is offering resistance against the palm blast(note: this is different from H7G/GJ. GJ was outside of 10 feet using the weapon to defend his body. GJ didn't dissolve the energy like Yin Tian Zheng did. GJ was defending a bit and mainly letting the palm blast weaken by distance). In other words, if Yin Tian Zheng was not defending, Dunan's palm could possibly extend even farther, but I think 20 feet would be around the max if it can even extend that far. This is different from HYS/YG exchange. HYS/YG was fire, overwhelm, travel distance, then the same cycle. Dunan/YinTianzheng was this- Yintianzheng, Yangxiao, ZWJ got to about 10 feet. ZWJ handles 2 Du generation monks and was winning since the monks had to use the tree for support against 9 Yang chi(and the monks were still losing). Yangxiao/Yintianzheng team up on Dunan. Yin Tian zheng got to about 15 feet and started to fire. Dunan each time fires, overwhelms Yin Tian zheng's energy and pushes back Yin Tian zheng by one or two steps. However, Yin Tian Zheng would always come back one step and offer resistance again. This kept on happening for a long time. After this long... time, Yin Tian Zheng's foot mark can be seen all over the place and overall in distance, Yin Tian Zheng got farther, but still within 20 feet.
    So after all this writing, H7G estimated can fire ~ 15 feet max. Dunan is unknown max, but has shown ~ 15 feet directly in battle and probably a bit more if Yin Tian zheng had not offered resistance(though not neccesary a lot more). This most likely shows that Dunan is a bit stronger or ~ H7G of LOCH. And ZWJ is a 3X each Du monks...... so...... yeah.... And since ZWJ=GJ=YG= Jue Yuan in internal....., you know what that translates to.

    Btw, don't give me the WXB 50 feet bs anymore, it sounds absolutely stupid. I think even JY would be laughing hard if you were to tell him that WXB can fire 5 feet. As for JLFW....., let's just say that JLFW increased by 1.5X. That actually is pretty reasonable for all the stats to come out(I personally calculated it with math).

    And btw, where is everybody else? It almost seems like RYY/me the whole time.
    And luckily this is summer or else I would be failing half of my classes.
    Last edited by Whsie; 07-24-06 at 12:43 PM.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出一阳指功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的一阳指功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    And btw, where is everybody else? It almost seems like RYY/me the whole time.
    And luckily this is summer or else I would be failing half of my classes.
    I wanted to join in this debate. Unfortunately, that would mean a lot of reading and processing information for the past few pages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    I said I retired from LOCH/ROCH Great Retirement, but I never mentioned HSDS....
    JY pretty much mentioned that YG, Jue Yuan, GJ = ZWJ right?

    Well, going back to H7G again. It's reasonable to say that H7G surpassed the 10 feet mark, but definitely not to the 20 feet mark. H7G was most likely using 80% of his ability due to 2 facts: 1. He saw HYS losing at 70%. 2. He needed to recupperate from OYF's injury months ago, so while he was recovering, the other Greats had a small advantage on him. So it most likely is ~ 80%. Using 80%, he fires 10 feet. Since JY says outside, it could be a bit more, but not more or else JY would say zhang xu or zhang and more. So H7G most likely was performing 10-12 feet at 80%.

    I remember you saying that H7G can possibly perform more. However, I dare to bet H7G at 80% firing 10-13 is not able to fire 20 when he is at 100%. You do know that to extend your palm blast from 10 feet to 20 feet takes a lot of more internal right? I do have the feeling that you will say no(seeing the way you argue).

    2. My actual one that won't break my retirement rule(and retirement is actually between books of LOCH with LOCH and ROCH with ROCH). Dunan of the 3 monks is the weakest directly said by JY. Using Semuru Mountain Palm (1 of the 72 supreme art), he fired zhang xu or practically saying 1 zhang and more and that is practically saying somewhere between 1.001 zhang-1.999 zhang. And most ideally, 1.5 zhang or 15 feet. Dunan was most likely using about 80-90% of his internal on Yin Tian Zheng since Yin Tian Zheng was the main one down there fighting internal with internal. Yang Xiao was on the outside doing all sorts of weapon attacks that acts like a distractor to Dunan. You may say that Dunan may fire even farther, that may possibly be true because though Dunan is firing most ideally 15 feet at Yin Tian Zheng, Yin Tian Zheng is offering resistance against the palm blast(note: this is different from H7G/GJ. GJ was outside of 10 feet using the weapon to defend his body. GJ didn't dissolve the energy like Yin Tian Zheng did. GJ was defending a bit and mainly letting the palm blast weaken by distance). In other words, if Yin Tian Zheng was not defending, Dunan's palm could possibly extend even farther, but I think 20 feet would be around the max if it can even extend that far. This is different from HYS/YG exchange. HYS/YG was fire, overwhelm, travel distance, then the same cycle. Dunan/YinTianzheng was this- Yintianzheng, Yangxiao, ZWJ got to about 10 feet. ZWJ handles 2 Du generation monks and was winning since the monks had to use the tree for support against 9 Yang chi(and the monks were still losing). Yangxiao/Yintianzheng team up on Dunan. Yin Tian zheng got to about 15 feet and started to fire. Dunan each time fires, overwhelms Yin Tian zheng's energy and pushes back Yin Tian zheng by one or two steps. However, Yin Tian Zheng would always come back one step and offer resistance again. This kept on happening for a long time. After this long... time, Yin Tian Zheng's foot mark can be seen all over the place and overall in distance, Yin Tian Zheng got farther, but still within 20 feet.
    So after all this writing, H7G estimated can fire ~ 15 feet max. Dunan is unknown max, but has shown ~ 15 feet directly in battle and probably a bit more if Yin Tian zheng had not offered resistance(though not neccesary a lot more). This most likely shows that Dunan is a bit stronger or ~ H7G of LOCH. And ZWJ is a 3X each Du monks...... so...... yeah.... And since ZWJ=GJ=YG= Jue Yuan in internal....., you know what that translates to.
    oh dear, just when i thought procrastination excuse was over!! x_X

    okay, I can kind of understand why you would want to think H7G & Du-whatever his face is (from HSDS) can only fire 10 or so feet...BUT i highly disagree with your reasoning and deduction. I cannot see how you can gather that they can ONLY fire that far by the evidence that they CAN fire that far. The main reason why I do not think just because H7G was able to keep GJ out at 10 feet and Du-whatever his-face-is can force Eagle King out to 10+ feet is because [b]distance does not determine the fight in both cases[/i].

    Why in detail? Yes, I agree, the farther one can fire, probably the more powerful (in skill+energy). However, in both of these fights, the distances really does not play as big of a factor as you think. Take GJ in ROCH for example...why doesn't he show off his palms by firing at long distance? it's just as you said, he is confined to a limited space, but more importantly, it's not to his advantage to fire from anywhere further. However, even though GJ never shows to fire at an extremely far distance, what makes you think he can, or rather why don't you think he shold be limited to only a few feet's range? Other description of the fight, right? Same thing applies here.

    Then let's further analyze the GJ vs H7G fight at the end of LOCH. If H7G can simply win the fight by blasting his palms further (just as you asked some 10 million posts ahead), why couldn't he just to qing gong to get closer to GJ? and if distance is such an important factor in this particular fight, then why did H7G and GJ would not have to resort to a palm-palm match at the last stance? Now HYG and GJ was never mentioned to be at a far away distance...does that mean HYG's range was zero??? Nowhere do i see where it implies that H7G can only fire some 10+ feet. JY simply states a minimum, not a maximum. It's like you're saying that because a car is driving 30 miles per hr, you think it's maximum speed is only some 35 miles/hour. Dissolving/defending is in a sense the same thing. The only way to defend against a palm attack is either by evading, or by dissovling it's power away with a counter stance...and GJ was obviously doing the latter with the iron flute.
    On the side, another reason why i think limiting h7g to some 10+ feet is ridiculous? GJ, after learning the first stance of dragon palms for a couple hours can blast a guy away for 6-7 feet.

    And yes, same thing applies to Du-whats-his-face. Neither should be be limited to 10+ feet only. Remeber, he forced Eagle King a step back at a time until Eagle King was some 10 feet away. This means, at one point, they were much closer, and yet you do not see him win against Eagle King (though he had the upper hand). Thus, meaning distance was not a key factor in the fight...or else why doesn't he just black Eagle King to 10 feet away right from the start rather than gradually? Yes, if you want, you can still argue that Du-whatshisface and H7G have the same range, but through a better and more solid evidence/deduction... not because they both were able to force their opponents out to ten feet and declaring that their minimum potential is about the same as their maximum.


    Quote Originally Posted by Whisie
    So take this example. LQS one of the 3 Xiao Yiao Elders fired somwhere between 40-50 feet (let's use 45 feet since it's most ideal) at XZ, TSTL at this is most likely LQS trying her hardest because as soon as she got within range, she fired. XF firing 3 consective got somewhere between 30-40 feet. XF was also most likely trying as hard a possible since he was trying to extend his palm energy as far as possible to get DCQ. Now, some evidence that I can think of for LQS>XF in farther palm range. Well. JMZ ~ XF due to fist exchanges amoung XYS/MRB. Well, JMZ<LQS due to a few reasons 1. JMZ only mastered 7/8th of Xiao Wu Xiaong gong and this is JMZ's strongest type of internal. (3rd edition only) 2. JMZ didn't master Xiao Wu Xiong Gong nearly as long as LQS. I'm not sure how long JMZ learned this internal, but JMZ is 40 something years old and LQS started learning in her childhood so that means even if JMZ started learning when he was a baby, JMZ would have about 40 something years of practice. LQS is 90 something and she started learning when she was in her 10s, so that's 80 years of practice. Nearly 2X amount of practice. Now, I not saying LQS 2X JMZ, but the difference should be pretty noticeable. And since JMZ~XF...... that would also mean LQS has a considerable difference in internal to further extend that palm blast by 10 feet. Now... I have a feeling that you would say that extending the palm from 10 feet to 20 feet is easier than from 40 feet- 50 feet. Well... even if it's easier, it shouldn't be that a 20% remaining in internal can increase it from 10 to 20 feet. That sounds just absolutely ridiculous. If H7G was to use 100%, he most likely would extend it to about 14-16 feet max. But extending to 20 feet is too unreasonable.
    i don't know why you are are arguing this...? As I have mentioned in above, the fights above were not about distance...

    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    Now, I can think of 2 possible examples. 1. Is HYS exchanging PALMS with YG. This is how it works. As said there's a 20-50 (several zhang and 5 zhang is max since said so by Jin Yong, which haven't been contradicted.) feet difference, but most ideally would be 35 feet since it's the mid range. This is how it worked. First, YG used palm WIND (zhang feng) to trap the 3 lackeys into the palm wind. Then he used palm BLAST(zhang li) to fire it at HYS. Each time HYS gets the palm blast, HYS has to send a stronger palm blast and overwhelm YG's previous palm energy and then send it all the way back for 35 feet for YG to hit. At the same time, HYS also has to carry these 3 lackeys inside the palm blast (within protection of palm wind created by YG earlier). Either way, this shows that YG/HYS can use palm blasts LDA of minimum of 20 feet. If we were to use this minimum 20 feet(and most likely more around 35 feet), then it would still be considerably greater than LOCH period Greats by a good margin.
    Since I said that I would not rank LOCH/ROCH Greats, that example is possibly to be excluded from my example, but useable for other people.
    Okay, first of all, you cannot just average what you think is the minimum and what is the maximum and use that as the set distance...i highly doubt that's what JY had in mind. It could be 20 feet or maybe 50 feet (big difference from 35, won't you say?). But anywayz, palm blast & palm wind is basically the same thing. A palm blast creates a wind...hence palm wind. But still, this proves nothing since i already state i see no reason why H7G should be limited to 10+ feet just because he CAN fire that far.

    Btw, don't give me the WXB 50 feet bs anymore, it sounds absolutely stupid. I think even JY would be laughing hard if you were to tell him that WXB can fire 5 feet. As for JLFW....., let's just say that JLFW increased by 1.5X. That actually is pretty reasonable for all the stats to come out(I personally calculated it with math).
    gosh you have weak nerves... j/k
    i thought u were done ranking the greats & JLFW....if we were to set all of them EQUAL...the greats still show a ridiculously high improvement rate considering u also believe improvement after mastering an art should be only gradual.

    ...i might have missed some of your points cuz i was editing ur quotes so they lie in the same category...if i missed countering an important part, please let me know.

    Quote Originally Posted by pacifian
    I wanted to join in this debate. Unfortunately, that would mean a lot of reading and processing information for the past few pages.
    oh, you don't need to read the past two or three pages...i suggest the most u need to do is the past one or two posts...they pretty much repeat what has happened in the past 2-3 pages

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