Team Condor v Team Smiling Wanderers

[Whsie]

The point of DGSD example is to show that that increasing your range from by 10 feet requires a lot more skill/internal. That is why H7G at 80% is unlikely to fire much farther than 10 feet. At most, it would only be 13 or 14 feet. Though H7G/Dunan weren't neccesary firing at their farthest range, but it has got to be close because they were all utilizing at least 80% of their internal. And no, the cases are different. GJ was mainly letting the palm wind weaken by distance, then blocks what is left with his flute. Yin Tian Zheng is different, JY specifically said that the palm power didn't weaken by increase in distance and Yin Tian Zheng unlike GJ was fully matching the palm power. GJ was letting the power weaken, then take the weakened power.
GJ didn't show to use LDA because cases weren't there. However, H7G/Dunan's case were right there and able to use it. H7G using 80% to fire 10 feet quite literally means 80%=10 feet range or else why would GJ constantly be stuck outside? And I never said LDA was neccesary important in a battle. All I mean is that it could be used to relatively compare person 1 with person 2.
If you're utilizing whatever % of your internal, you can extend it whatever the distance is. If you want shorter distance, why utilize the extra? That's a complete waste of internal since LDA seems pretty difficult to use and energy consuming.
And blasting a guy away flying in air and sending energy in air is 2 different things. Sending energy in air is much, much harder. To blast a guy away 20 feet, all you need is to put your palm on their chest and send the energy and there he goes. And as I said H7G firing up to 20 feet is ridiculous because of the DGSD example. That was the whole point of the DGSD example. H7G using about 80% fired 10 feet. So that means the extra 20% of him will extend it 10 more feet??? Sounds ridiculous when the difference between LQS and XF is so big (and that was point of JMZ example) and they have a difference of 10 feet in attacks. The car example that you gave me showed me that you think extending the LDA by 10 feet doesn't need a lot of internal. And.... that's why I gave you DGSD to show you extending the LDA by 10 feet requires a lot of more internal.

No... Yin Tian Zheng, Yang Xiao, ZWJ stopped about 10 feet away. After YangXiao, Yin Tian Zheng combined, they were getting farther and farther, but still below 20 feet. Throughout the fight from the beggining to the end, it went from the lower part of the 1.001 zhang-1.999 zhang to the higher 1.001 zhang - 1.999 zhang. It may not be their max, but it is near their max since as I said probably 3 times already on this one post alone is that they are using 80%+ internal. And 80% internal is about 10-15 feet. And since extending 5-10 feet requires a lot of internal(from the DGSD example)..... it's impossible to extend it from 10 to 20 feet when you have less than 20% of unused internal. And Yin Tian Zheng and Dunan did start out at 10 feet. 80% is not really minimum potential. It actually is somewhere close to max, especially in distance attacks.

And DGSD example is to show you that extending the distance for the extra 10 feet requires a pretty big difference in internal. And true, LDA may not always be critical in win/loss, but it does show the relative skill level.

Well, what distance would you use when JY says several zhang? several means 2+ and max is 5 as stated in DGSD. So? 2-5 zhang is the distance. And... 3.5 zhang is the middle. Can you choose a better choice that 35 feet? It is the most ideal since it's the middle. I'm not saying it really is 35 feet, but 35 feet is probably the best guesstimate of the position. And that distance is also near XF's distance.
H7G most likely can't fire that far because extending 10 more feet requires definitely more than just 20% of your unused internal.

I'll rank them one last time assuming JLFW used the 1.5 X improvement. Greats improving by 20% based on the original scale DOES make sense. I personally calculated the whole thing out based on years improvement.

[Ren Ying Ying]

oh dear...this is turning into a what is LDA question.
my point is that just b/c GJ or whoevers is pushed out to a certain distance, it doesn't mean anything else besides the attacker CAN push that far. your example in DGSD shows that those kids are TRYING to push far...H7G and GJ's fight is not about how far u can hit. Who know...maybe if GJ wasn't blocking, H7G's palm may strike 50 feet away. like i said, H7G and GJ ended up matching palms...why don't you tell me H7G's max is at zero then?

will edit later

[Whsie]

oh dear...this is turning into a what is LDA question.
my point is that just b/c GJ or whoevers is pushed out to a certain distance, it doesn't mean anything else besides the attacker CAN push that far. your example in DGSD shows that those kids are TRYING to push far...H7G and GJ's fight is not about how far u can hit. Who know...maybe if GJ wasn't blocking, H7G's palm may strike 50 feet away. like i said, H7G and GJ ended up matching palms...why don't you tell me H7G's max is at zero then?

will edit later

I'm guessing what you're trying to say is H7G didn't push to his max? I did mention earlier why H7G most likely was using 80% plus of his internal. If a person fires 1 zhang, and is using 80% internal, that most likely is 1 zhang=80% internal. Why? Because LDA is not very efficient in terms of energy since it takes a lot of energy away. So if H7G could fire 1 zhang with 50%, he would only use 50% internal into it. If H7G could have fired 1.5 zhang with 80%, he most likely would have taken the full range or else it would waste some of his internal. That is why I have a firm belief that H7G using ~80% of his internal=11 or 12 feet LDA. And as I said with the DGSD example, extending an extra 10 feet requires more than just 20% of internal unless your level is already at Xiao Yiao Elders level or higher(which nearly everyone agrees are stronger than the Greats by a good margin).

The reason I said H7G at 80% is around 11 or 12 feet (1 zhang kai wai or a bit outside) is because that is the relative distance GJ is constantly standing at. JY said that GJ was forced outside of 10 feet and not be able to get any closer, so I'm seeing this means that anything within or about 10 feet is extremely strong; however, as it starts going beyond 10 feet, it starts to weaken(palm winds when gotten to a point, starts to weaken). And as a result of the weakened palm wind, GJ can block the weakened palm energy. Now, why would H7G use LDA? The best reason I can think of for now is that GJ has a weapon. And having a weapon does give one an advantage over another. And GJ having learned a chunk of weapon attacks from the battles with OYF, is no pushover with a flute. And I'm pretty sure H7G also realized that since H7G knew that GJ was also using some of 9 Yin arts against HYS. By keeping GJ outside of 10 feet, H7G doesn't have to worry about weapons because the weapon can't even reach him. I'm sure you'll say, that this is H7G all he needed to do for LDA. Well, that's the reason I wrote the first paragraph.

As for H7G matching palm with GJ, I'm pretty sure H7G would prefer to go in close range since H7G no longer has to worry about the flute(that is why H7G did close combat after GJ lost his weapon). And doing close combat would be to H7G's advantage because H7G has a higher level of martial art than GJ.

The case for Dunan/Yin Tian Zheng is very different. It's true that Dunan's palm energy could possibly go farther (unlike H7G's case). Reasons? 1. JY specifically said at the end of the paragraph that Dunan's palm energy is not weakening by distance (unlike H7G). 2. Yin Tian Zheng unlike GJ (he was letting palm weaken) was offering full resistance WANTING to get inside. Yin Tian Zheng as we can see is utilizing near 100% of his internal (once again unlike GJ's resistance against H7G) and taking every single palm energy by Dunan. So Dunan's case is unlike H7G's case. Yin Tian Zheng is offering full resistance. And if you still have trouble believeing me, go read those sections and tell me if you have the feeling that GJ was trying ANYWHERE as hard as Yin Tian Zheng was or untilizing anywhere near the amount of internal Yin Tian Zheng was. Yin Tian Zheng was described as having his shirt floating from the near max utilization of chi. His head was sweating which chi seen on top of his head. And each time he steps back, there is a solid foot mark (well, it's material is weaker than stone for sure) every time. Eventually marks can be seen all over the place. So after all this, Dunan is possible to extend it beyond what he did. But not likely much farther because Dunan was also utilizing ~90% of his internal on Yin Tian Zheng. The other 10% went to YangXiao's weapons flying around(YangXiao wasn't fighting internal with internal). So if yin tian Zheng had not offered resistance, Dunan's extension of range for not having Yin Tian Zheng blocking, would still be near his max. However, just how far would it go? No idea. I'm imagining about 20 feet (seems reasonable), but.... I admit I have no proof for Dunan's max range. Dunan showed 15 feet. Getting it farther would likely be around 18-19 feet. But I won't speak on his range anymore. However, this most likely suggests Dunan is ~ or > than H7G at LOCH. And just to let you know, the purity in internal of the Du Generation monks are unmatched by anyone during HSDS era except for Z3F(FAR purier than ZWJ).

[Ren Ying Ying]

okay, let's setting things one at a time. for now, i'm too lazy to go back to the HSDS text to analyze at the moment. let's just stick with H7G & GJ for now. But just for the note, yes i do think GJ was pulling out 100% against H7G...he specifically told himself he was going to put in full effort in order not to be biased against HYS or H7G. And as for when I say minimum...i do not mean minimum effort, but the minimum distance we know they CAN go.

first of all, i would like to apologize for making the car analogy and causing a misunderstanding. i was too intent on thinking max/min i forgot that cars were actually propelled by a source of power. Now, for a better analogy of what I think H7G's & GJ's fight more likely resembers (not completely...but better than racing cars). Think for example, of a baseball pitcher and a batter. The pitcher throws the ball at an extremely forceful pace. If there were no catcher or batter to stop the ball, the ball can go extremely far. However, since there is a catcher/batter, the distance the pitcher throws is only however far the home base is from the pitcher's mound. However, i highly doubt that distance is anywhere close to how far the pitcher can actually throw (of course i'm refering to pros...not little league). Or, you think think of soccer/footbal where one player CAN kick the ball from one end of the field to the other end (this is just hypothetical), but the ball may get stopped at midfield (or closer or farther) because a defender/goalie/goal net may stop the ball's velocity. Hence, take this to GJ/H7G...GJ is stopping H7G's palms at 10+ feet...does not mean H7G's palm wave will stop anywhere near there (it possible that the palm force really can go only 12 feet...but it also could go to 50+ feet or 500 feet . The evidence is extremely up to your own personal interpretation and not useful as proof). Of course I'm not saying palm power doesn't weaken with distance (which it obviously should), but I don't think you can necessarily make the assumption that just b/c GJ jumped away 10 feet, H7G's palm power stops somewhere around there.

As for dealing with weapons, JY specificallys said that at a high level of martial arts, with or without a weapon usually doesn't matter. But my point of bringing out the GJ/H7G palm match was to show that Guo Jing CAN go closer to H7G...hence whether he goes away 10 feet or 20 feet or 50 feet really doesn't reflect on H7G's max distance because GJ can go in to a 0 feet distance and H7G's max obviously isn't 0 feet. I highly doubt H7G was allowing GJ to come closer to him for a palm match because he pull all out (at least initially) on the last stance.

If, however, it was really H7G's choice to have a palm match with GJ, then it would mean that H7G had a control over how far his palm goes, independent of how much power he inputs, then it further means you cannot say H7G's max is around 10+ feet when he goes some 70-80%.

[Whsie]

okay, let's setting things one at a time. for now, i'm too lazy to go back to the HSDS text to analyze at the moment. let's just stick with H7G & GJ for now. But just for the note, yes i do think GJ was pulling out 100% against H7G...he specifically told himself he was going to put in full effort in order not to be biased against HYS or H7G. And as for when I say minimum...i do not mean minimum effort, but the minimum distance we know they CAN go.

first of all, i would like to apologize for making the car analogy and causing a misunderstanding. i was too intent on thinking max/min i forgot that cars were actually propelled by a source of power. Now, for a better analogy of what I think H7G's & GJ's fight more likely resembers (not completely...but better than racing cars). Think for example, of a baseball pitcher and a batter. The pitcher throws the ball at an extremely forceful pace. If there were no catcher or batter to stop the ball, the ball can go extremely far. However, since there is a catcher/batter, the distance the pitcher throws is only however far the home base is from the pitcher's mound. However, i highly doubt that distance is anywhere close to how far the pitcher can actually throw (of course i'm refering to pros...not little league). Or, you think think of soccer/footbal where one player CAN kick the ball from one end of the field to the other end (this is just hypothetical), but the ball may get stopped at midfield (or closer or farther) because a defender/goalie/goal net may stop the ball's velocity. Hence, take this to GJ/H7G...GJ is stopping H7G's palms at 10+ feet...does not mean H7G's palm wave will stop anywhere near there (it possible that the palm force really can go only 12 feet...but it also could go to 50+ feet or 500 feet . The evidence is extremely up to your own personal interpretation and not useful as proof). Of course I'm not saying palm power doesn't weaken with distance (which it obviously should), but I don't think you can necessarily make the assumption that just b/c GJ jumped away 10 feet, H7G's palm power stops somewhere around there.

As for dealing with weapons, JY specificallys said that at a high level of martial arts, with or without a weapon usually doesn't matter. But my point of bringing out the GJ/H7G palm match was to show that Guo Jing CAN go closer to H7G...hence whether he goes away 10 feet or 20 feet or 50 feet really doesn't reflect on H7G's max distance because GJ can go in to a 0 feet distance and H7G's max obviously isn't 0 feet. I highly doubt H7G was allowing GJ to come closer to him for a palm match because he pull all out (at least initially) on the last stance.

If, however, it was really H7G's choice to have a palm match with GJ, then it would mean that H7G had a control over how far his palm goes, independent of how much power he inputs, then it further means you cannot say H7G's max is around 10+ feet when he goes some 70-80%.

Yes, minimum distance we know they can go. But as I said, LDA takes a lot of internal. It's not wise use of internal when when you can strech an attack by max of 15 feet and only strech it by 5 feet. You're wasting extra internal right there. And especially in an extreme yang art like XL18Z, it's even more unwise to do such a thing. That's why H7G using 80% most likely is getting to about 11 feet or else he is inefficiently using his internal. And H7G is not a dumb fighter, I'm sure he is smart enough to know how to use his internal efficiently.

Yes, GJ is using 100% of his ability. But is GJ utilizing 100% of INTERNAL everytime? No. I have nowhere the impression that GJ was using 100% internal on everysingle stance and everysingle palm. Yin Tian Zheng's decription on the contrary was different. Every palm used, is using near 100% of his internal.

And.... did I say H7G's distance really would just all of a sudden dissapear into nowhere after 11 feet? I don't think so. I just said GJ stood out 11 feet and started to let the palm wind weaken and then took what's left. What I said is actually corresponding with your sport examples. Ok, I need to make one thing clear. When I say the LDA distance, I mean it as the attack still at full power. So in H7G's case, his LDA is around 11 feet before it starts weakening with distance traveling. Just like a pitcher. There is a point at his throw where his solid and decent power will start to weaken. It will travel farther, but in a weakened stage. My book's LDA is that baseball before it starts weakening. I no doubt admit H7G's palm can travel 11+. But in it's power and strong stage? 11 feet. So according to my LDA, it's 11 feet, even though it may continue to travel an extra 10 something feet in it's weakened stage.
Why would GJ stay outside of 10 feet? That's because anything within 10 feet, the power is too strong. The farther, the weaker the power. If the power is the same the whole time, why not be at 3 feet and block them? Obviously that's because H7G's palm energy at 10 feet is still at its "strong/power" stage. While at 14 feet, it's at its "weakening" stage.
Yes, at a high point, what JY says of course is true. However, I doubt that is the case for GJ/H7G match. Why would H7G constantly be using LDA when he clearly has the higher level in internal/palm energy? I'm seeing it as weapon giving GJ an advantage here. Why did H7G disarm GJ later if GJ could fight equally good or stronger without a weapon? I'm having the impression that GJ's weapon ability learned from the 9 Yin manual is strong enough to give GJ a small advantage.
Yes, GJ only got closer when H7G STOPPED using LDA after approx 162 stances IIRC. That is when H7G realized that his internal is draining quickly and needs to use mind over muscle. Which then, H7G disarms GJ by that trick. And they then started close quarter combat. Of course you're right, just because they're doing close quarter, it doesn't mean H7G's max is 0 ft. However, was there a need for LDA then? No. LDA takes a lot of energy. GJ no longer has weapons, so that = to close combat was more fit for H7G(obviously with better internal/experience/better palm energy). The only thing H7G didn't calculate into close combat was that GJ had ZBT's 2 arts, L/R and Vacant Fist with XL18Z. And as said by H7G, GJ then had a good mixture of both hard and soft, so GJ was able to hold on for a good time.

I know what you're saying in that last paragraph. Usually, it's either LDA or close combat. If you use LDA, you'll try to extend it as far as possible with whatever % of internal you're using in other to get the most of your internal useage. If Close combat, you'll most likely only extend it a few inches at most since extending the attack takes energy quickly. So, what I'm saying is that there's usually no in-betweens. So when H7G did close combat with GJ, he would barely extend it at all if at all. If H7G is does use LDA, he'll extend it as far as possible. With this, I do dare to say 10 feet is most likely around ~80%.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Yes, minimum distance we know they can go. But as I said, LDA takes a lot of internal. It's not wise use of internal when when you can strech an attack by max of 15 feet and only strech it by 5 feet. You're wasting extra internal right there. And especially in an extreme yang art like XL18Z, it's even more unwise to do such a thing. That's why H7G using 80% most likely is getting to about 11 feet or else he is inefficiently using his internal. And H7G is not a dumb fighter, I'm sure he is smart enough to know how to use his internal efficiently.

Yes, GJ is using 100% of his ability. But is GJ utilizing 100% of INTERNAL everytime? No. I have nowhere the impression that GJ was using 100% internal on everysingle stance and everysingle palm. Yin Tian Zheng's decription on the contrary was different. Every palm used, is using near 100% of his internal.

And.... did I say H7G's distance really would just all of a sudden dissapear into nowhere after 11 feet? I don't think so. I just said GJ stood out 11 feet and started to let the palm wind weaken and then took what's left. What I said is actually corresponding with your sport examples. Ok, I need to make one thing clear. When I say the LDA distance, I mean it as the attack still at full power. So in H7G's case, his LDA is around 11 feet before it starts weakening with distance traveling. Just like a pitcher. There is a point at his throw where his solid and decent power will start to weaken. It will travel farther, but in a weakened stage. My book's LDA is that baseball before it starts weakening. I no doubt admit H7G's palm can travel 11+. But in it's power and strong stage? 11 feet. So according to my LDA, it's 11 feet, even though it may continue to travel an extra 10 something feet in it's weakened stage.
Why would GJ stay outside of 10 feet? That's because anything within 10 feet, the power is too strong. The farther, the weaker the power. If the power is the same the whole time, why not be at 3 feet and block them? Obviously that's because H7G's palm energy at 10 feet is still at its "strong/power" stage. While at 14 feet, it's at its "weakening" stage.
Yes, at a high point, what JY says of course is true. However, I doubt that is the case for GJ/H7G match. Why would H7G constantly be using LDA when he clearly has the higher level in internal/palm energy? I'm seeing it as weapon giving GJ an advantage here. Why did H7G disarm GJ later if GJ could fight equally good or stronger without a weapon? I'm having the impression that GJ's weapon ability learned from the 9 Yin manual is strong enough to give GJ a small advantage.
Yes, GJ only got closer when H7G STOPPED using LDA after approx 162 stances IIRC. That is when H7G realized that his internal is draining quickly and needs to use mind over muscle. Which then, H7G disarms GJ by that trick. And they then started close quarter combat. Of course you're right, just because they're doing close quarter, it doesn't mean H7G's max is 0 ft. However, was there a need for LDA then? No. LDA takes a lot of energy. GJ no longer has weapons, so that = to close combat was more fit for H7G(obviously with better internal/experience/better palm energy). The only thing H7G didn't calculate into close combat was that GJ had ZBT's 2 arts, L/R and Vacant Fist with XL18Z. And as said by H7G, GJ then had a good mixture of both hard and soft, so GJ was able to hold on for a good time.

I know what you're saying in that last paragraph. Usually, it's either LDA or close combat. If you use LDA, you'll try to extend it as far as possible with whatever % of internal you're using in other to get the most of your internal useage. If Close combat, you'll most likely only extend it a few inches at most since extending the attack takes energy quickly. So, what I'm saying is that there's usually no in-betweens. So when H7G did close combat with GJ, he would barely extend it at all if at all. If H7G is does use LDA, he'll extend it as far as possible. With this, I do dare to say 10 feet is most likely around ~80%.

But if H7G really can control whether his palms go far or not and even if his palm really starts dying weakly at 10+ feet...then why doesn't he chase GJ down so the distance is less than 10 feet instead of wasting his energy firing at GJ from further than 10 feet? Considering his status, he should be able to move faster than GJ. Also, why would H7G bother changing stances if all he ever did was to keep GJ away? To find a stance to hit GJ, right? Not to use just raw power to blast GJ away. So why does he NEED to fire further to keep GJ away?

And yes, if GJ is using 100% effort (skill and power) against HYS, why would he use less against H7G? Unless H7G is using less than 70% effort?


Regarding GJ & weapon. If anything, GJ's weapon should put him at a disadvantage because his best skill is considered XL18Z. The reason H7G made GJ take a weapon was because he was the one that taught GJ the palms and he said it's boring if it were XL18Z to XL18Z. H7G did not mean to disarm GJ, he meant to defeat GJ and wasn't expecting GJ to last.

[Whsie]

But if H7G really can control whether his palms go far or not and even if his palm really starts dying weakly at 10+ feet...then why doesn't he chase GJ down so the distance is less than 10 feet instead of wasting his energy firing at GJ from further than 10 feet? Considering his status, he should be able to move faster than GJ. Also, why would H7G bother changing stances if all he ever did was to keep GJ away? To find a stance to hit GJ, right? Not to use just raw power to blast GJ away. So why does he NEED to fire further to keep GJ away?

And yes, if GJ is using 100% effort (skill and power) against HYS, why would he use less against H7G? Unless H7G is using less than 70% effort?


Regarding GJ & weapon. If anything, GJ's weapon should put him at a disadvantage because his best skill is considered XL18Z. The reason H7G made GJ take a weapon was because he was the one that taught GJ the palms and he said it's boring if it were XL18Z to XL18Z. H7G did not mean to disarm GJ, he meant to defeat GJ and wasn't expecting GJ to last.

You... realize this battle is not just H7G blast and GJ block the whole time right? There was a lot of dodging and moving around. GJ could move back and H7G could move front(but the distance is overall 10 feet). Technically saying H7G should have better qinggong to better control the distance. However, I can think of one possible reason why GJ was able to constantly maintain the distance- 9 Yin. Admit it, the arts in 9 Yin are most likely better than H7G's in everyarea except for stick (Dog Beating) and palm(XL). So that also gives a better bases of qinggong than H7G. Even though that doesn't neccesary mean GJ can really outrun H7G, but it at least means that GJ's qinggong shouldn't be that far from H7G. To give you an idea of how good 9 Yin footworks are: HYS and ZBT battled and ZBT by accident used some of the footwork of 9 Yin. Not only was H7G very impressed, but HYS also wasn't able to do anything about it. And don't forget, HYS in his arsenal also has an area specifically on leg energy. And yet, ZBT was still owning. So with GJ, recieving a chunk, I can imagine GJ at least to be able to hold the distance.

Why doesn't H7G chase GJ down? Well, reason #1 is up there. I'm curious whether or not H7G really could chase GJ down with GJ having a better basis of qinggong. reason #2 is most likely H7G wanted to stay out of range for the weapon. GJ wasn't using those 7 Freak weapons arts, he was using 9 Yin weapon arts that he was starting able to match OYF's weapon. And having that kind of skill level in weapon is no doubt dangerous for H7G.

Why did H7G change? 2 Reasons. #1 LDA was getting H7G nowhere as he probably realized after 162 palms. And H7G after using LDA plus XL18Z was getting tired and overall in palm energy, he started to weaken. So then, that's why he tricked GJ and tried to finish GJ off, but then GJ caught him by suprise with Vacant Fist. Reason #2 was that GJ no longer had a weapon, and since H7G's overall internal and palm energy should be above GJ, H7G was more fit for close combat. But as I said earlier, H7G didn't calculate Vacant Fist and L/R into the equation getting GJ the good mixture of hard/soft. Even H7G admited himself that GJ should not be able to hold off him, but since GJ has Vacant Fist with XL18Z, GJ has the yin/yang mixture letting GJ hold on even longer.

Yes, probably for H7G there was no longer a need to fire longer. However, firing longer may possibly have hit GJ. And my question is CAN H7G fire farther? I estimate H7G was approx 80% of internal several posts earlier. And as explained several times, if you use LDA, use it all the way to get the most of your internal. If close combat, don't bother extending it more than a few inches. It's most likely one or the other, not somewhere in between.

Yes, I never ever denied GJ using 100% of his SKILL. But I never said GJ would utilize 100% of his INTERNAL on every single stance. For instance in this 300 stance match, GJ may use 100% of his arsernal/ability on every stance, but only use 100% of his internal of 60 or 70 stance. There was no way GJ could still have that much energy after 600 stances with HYS and H7G if GJ had trully used 100% of his internal on every single stance. Yin Tian Zheng was different, he was literally using near 100% or 100% on every move.

[Ren Ying Ying]

You... realize this battle is not just H7G blast and GJ block the whole time right? There was a lot of dodging and moving around. GJ could move back and H7G could move front(but the distance is overall 10 feet). Technically saying H7G should have better qinggong to better control the distance. However, I can think of one possible reason why GJ was able to constantly maintain the distance- 9 Yin. Admit it, the arts in 9 Yin are most likely better than H7G's in everyarea except for stick (Dog Beating) and palm(XL). So that also gives a better bases of qinggong than H7G. Even though that doesn't neccesary mean GJ can really outrun H7G, but it at least means that GJ's qinggong shouldn't be that far from H7G. To give you an idea of how good 9 Yin footworks are: HYS and ZBT battled and ZBT by accident used some of the footwork of 9 Yin. Not only was H7G very impressed, but HYS also wasn't able to do anything about it. And don't forget, HYS in his arsenal also has an area specifically on leg energy. And yet, ZBT was still owning. So with GJ, recieving a chunk, I can imagine GJ at least to be able to hold the distance.

Why doesn't H7G chase GJ down? Well, reason #1 is up there. I'm curious whether or not H7G really could chase GJ down with GJ having a better basis of qinggong. reason #2 is most likely H7G wanted to stay out of range for the weapon. GJ wasn't using those 7 Freak weapons arts, he was using 9 Yin weapon arts that he was starting able to match OYF's weapon. And having that kind of skill level in weapon is no doubt dangerous for H7G.

Why did H7G change? 2 Reasons. #1 LDA was getting H7G nowhere as he probably realized after 162 palms. And H7G after using LDA plus XL18Z was getting tired and overall in palm energy, he started to weaken. So then, that's why he tricked GJ and tried to finish GJ off, but then GJ caught him by suprise with Vacant Fist. Reason #2 was that GJ no longer had a weapon, and since H7G's overall internal and palm energy should be above GJ, H7G was more fit for close combat. But as I said earlier, H7G didn't calculate Vacant Fist and L/R into the equation getting GJ the good mixture of hard/soft. Even H7G admited himself that GJ should not be able to hold off him, but since GJ has Vacant Fist with XL18Z, GJ has the yin/yang mixture letting GJ hold on even longer.

Yes, probably for H7G there was no longer a need to fire longer. However, firing longer may possibly have hit GJ. And my question is CAN H7G fire farther? I estimate H7G was approx 80% of internal several posts earlier. And as explained several times, if you use LDA, use it all the way to get the most of your internal. If close combat, don't bother extending it more than a few inches. It's most likely one or the other, not somewhere in between.

Yes, I never ever denied GJ using 100% of his SKILL. But I never said GJ would utilize 100% of his INTERNAL on every single stance. For instance in this 300 stance match, GJ may use 100% of his arsernal/ability on every stance, but only use 100% of his internal of 60 or 70 stance. There was no way GJ could still have that much energy after 600 stances with HYS and H7G if GJ had trully used 100% of his internal on every single stance. Yin Tian Zheng was different, he was literally using near 100% or 100% on every move.

Oh dear, don't drop by for a few days, and the thread gets lost...

anywayz....

Yes, 9yin is incredible...but does it really bring GJ up to H7G's lvl? 2+ years of 9yin can match H7G's 40 years of qinggong? i highly doubt it. (btw, as you said in ROCH, GJ was confined to the conditions of the battle. in LOCH, these kids are battling on Mt. Hua, not some open field). however good GJ's sword skill were due to 9 yin, they are still most likely not as good as his XL18Z. If H7G worried about GJ's sword, he should be even more worried about GJ's palm, which he was also able to match HYS. so i really DON'T see why H7G would really worry about keeping GJ away just b/c he has a sword (not to mention JY specifially said right before the battle that weapons don't matter at that lvl...I think JY put that comment there for a reason, don't you?). ZBT was HYS's lvl, if not even better. HYS would have trouble with ZBT even without 9 yin, you can't compre ZBT to GJ.

And again, the problem of hitting GJ was not a problem of distance, but a problem of how to play out your skill. Why else did not H7G bother using a "trick" to try finish off GJ the first time rather than fire all out like he did on the last stance? And once again, if H7G's palms were not able to hit GJ, why would GJ even bother defending like he did?

If it took H7G 162 palms for H7G to realize he's not getting anywhere with it...doesn't that make H7G pretty slow in the brain? If according to you, LDA takes more energy than regular palm matches, why would H7G waste 162 palms worth of energy when he's knows he's not going anywhere with it? Especially since he doesn't plan to overtake GJ until after 200 stances.

According to your argument...GJ can put in 100% effort when he doesn't need to use 100% internal power? Then what makes you think H7G was actually going 70-80% internal power when he's only put in 70-80% effort???
GJ was going to faint after fighting with HYS...he had always been the type of guy who puts in 110% effort if needed. After around 200+ stances, when HYS put in his full effort, i would assume GJ uses all his might to defend...even till he started to see stars.

[Whsie]

Oh dear, don't drop by for a few days, and the thread gets lost...

anywayz....

Yes, 9yin is incredible...but does it really bring GJ up to H7G's lvl? 2+ years of 9yin can match H7G's 40 years of qinggong? i highly doubt it. (btw, as you said in ROCH, GJ was confined to the conditions of the battle. in LOCH, these kids are battling on Mt. Hua, not some open field). however good GJ's sword skill were due to 9 yin, they are still most likely not as good as his XL18Z. If H7G worried about GJ's sword, he should be even more worried about GJ's palm, which he was also able to match HYS. so i really DON'T see why H7G would really worry about keeping GJ away just b/c he has a sword (not to mention JY specifially said right before the battle that weapons don't matter at that lvl...I think JY put that comment there for a reason, don't you?). ZBT was HYS's lvl, if not even better. HYS would have trouble with ZBT even without 9 yin, you can't compre ZBT to GJ.

And again, the problem of hitting GJ was not a problem of distance, but a problem of how to play out your skill. Why else did not H7G bother using a "trick" to try finish off GJ the first time rather than fire all out like he did on the last stance? And once again, if H7G's palms were not able to hit GJ, why would GJ even bother defending like he did?

If it took H7G 162 palms for H7G to realize he's not getting anywhere with it...doesn't that make H7G pretty slow in the brain? If according to you, LDA takes more energy than regular palm matches, why would H7G waste 162 palms worth of energy when he's knows he's not going anywhere with it? Especially since he doesn't plan to overtake GJ until after 200 stances.

According to your argument...GJ can put in 100% effort when he doesn't need to use 100% internal power? Then what makes you think H7G was actually going 70-80% internal power when he's only put in 70-80% effort???
GJ was going to faint after fighting with HYS...he had always been the type of guy who puts in 110% effort if needed. After around 200+ stances, when HYS put in his full effort, i would assume GJ uses all his might to defend...even till he started to see stars.

Ok, this is a basis question now. I don't think H7G has a true basis of qinggong, mainly realying on his internal to do the job. If your basis is good enough, you can overcome the internal difference by quite a serious margin. The best example I can think of is YG (before he learned Iron Sword) and JLFW. JLFW at that time was FARRR superior in internal ( I sure hope you won't start argueing with me on this..) and yet he wasn't able to catch up to YG. Why? JLFW to my knowledge most likely was just relying on internal (like H7G is). YG though far inferior in internal, has one of the best qinggong basis in the world-Tomb Sect. With better basis, YG was able to match JLFW despite far inferior internal. In a similiar case, GJ also has better basis of qinggong than H7G and from what I see, can certainly make up the internal difference at least in qinggong area.

And though Hua Shan is limited in certainly some ways, but there still is more room to combat than surrounded by millions of Mongolians, having to worry about LDA hitting civilians, surrounded by 14 Big Dipper Formations. Why would Greats originally choose this area if there was only enough room for close combat? There certainly have to be at least some room for rest or else there isn't a single moment even safe(having to worry about 2 people fighting beside you).

From what I see, H7G actually should be more worried about GJ's sword techniques. The reason? H7G has never seen how these sword techniques work. It's unknown to him. XL18Z, H7G probably still knows it a bit better than GJ does. In addition to knowing how all the stances, he also know exactly how each stance works (remember, this is before GJ made modifications to XL18Z).

Yes, GJ was able to match HYS, but that is because HYS's palm is not as brute forced as H7G's. If H7G and HYS to were match palm to palm each using 100%, H7G if didn't get injured from OYF earlier and still maintained exact par, would most likely win the palm match. Remember, HYS's palm doesn't talk about straight forward go in and blow them away, that is H7G's way. HYS is creating many fake techniques and tricking the opponent. Falling Divine Sword Palm in comparision to XL18Z is weaker in power. And that it is even more evident that FDSP is inferior in power area when HYS used to try to match YG's Sad Palm. So yes, H7G no doubt should be a bit worried about the power of GJ, but H7G should also still know that GJ's power is still a bit lower than his.

Yes, weapon at a certain level would not matter anymore. But EVEN if weapon at that level won't matter anymore, why would H7G keep him away? It still most likely is the "unknown" reason. Remember, H7G never seen GJ use 9 Yin weapon combat before. If you were H7G and you can use LDA. Wouldn't you first keep him out of range to at least first see how his weaponary skill is? It just isn't worth taking the risk. Of course, the other reason is the 200 stance stuff reason. By doing LDA, H7G doesn't have to worry about GJ getting anywhere near striking distance.

Firstly about ZBT, the reason I used him in my example is to show you that ZBT with 9 Yin footwork could still beat HYS's Sweep Leave Leg. HYS at least has a area in footwork. H7G on the other hand does have one, but not anything special. It's just one of his outer arts that he learned when he was young. So GJ with 9 Yin footwork could most certainly at least match H7G. And that was what the whole qinggong stuff about!(was I talking for nothing?) So yes, GJ/ZBT with same footwork can be used as comparision for HYS/H7G. (I'm having the feeling that you aren't getting the point for some of my examples....)

Now to the real issue about ZBT now that you mentioned him. ZBT of course can give trouble to HYS without 9 Yin. All ZBT needs is Vacant Fist paired up with QZ palm using them at the same time with L/R. Then that would at least be able to par up with HYS. But with when ZBT actually uses 9 Yin by accident, then that's a different story. ZBT not only can beat, but actually pwn HYS. HYS would be a goner if ZBT hadn't realized he used 9 Yin arts during that mist later (when GJ got angry because he thought HYS killed his masters). In a similiar case, no matter what HYS did, he couldn't do anthing about ZBT when ZBT accidently (again) used 9 Yin footwork.

Why didn't H7G trick instead of firing all out? Naturally because it wouldn't work as well now that H7G realized GJ can combine soft/hard with L/R of Vacant Fist+XL18Z. Later, before H7G realized what stance he was on, he was already on stance #299. Therefore, he had a "wanting to win heart" (said directly by JY), and fired all out... by ACCIDENT(H7G realized that he went all out on the last stance and he wasn't able to take it back anymore). And of course GJ realized that Vacant Fist wasn't going to dissolve this and therefore had to match it.

Sigh..... H7G's palm CAN HIT GJ. Jesus.... you're going to give me an heartattack making me repeat myself so many times. And you practically given me the analogy for me on the sport examples. Once again.... my book's LDA is when it's still near or at full power. The moment it starts to weaken, I don't count that into the LDA distance anymore. In other words, when H7G's palm energy starts to weaken at 11 feet, I don't count anything that goes outside. GJ stays at distance and let it weakens, then takes what remains which is the weakened palm energy. Why would GJ stay out at 13 or 14 feet if the palm energy is the same as when it's 5 feet? Obviously the energy are different and the 13 or 14 feet is much more recievable than the 5 feet.

Though H7G is not stupid, but he isn't a genius either. Of course he is smart enough to realize what he is doing. Maybe at first, H7G didn't know that this was taking him nowhere. Using LDA there was 2 purposes: one to take some of the stances out of the way without seriously injuring either side (well, if GJ is smart enough to stay out of the danger area).
two obviously is to detect how good GJ's weaponary skill was. The unknown always leaves suspicions and is unwise in combat. And to show you an example is Shun Zhi Battle Book(I hope you know what this is, it's one of the most famous battle books in chinese history): Shun Zhi once said that "to win a combat, you have to know your opponent like you know yourself". Once a soldier said to Shun Zhi, "I don't know who or what my opponent is like". Shun Zhi said "You most likely will lose". The little soldier said, "Ok, we'll fight and see". The little soldier ran off and found the opposite side's soldier. One on one combat, this little soldier was beaten BADLY. So..... it's always better to read and detect what the unknown is before actually handling it.

Ok, you still don't know the difference between 100% effort and 100% internal. Ok, look at Taichi. You're fighting right? You give it all you got. 100% effort. Does that mean you're using 100% internal? Not neccesary. There is NO NEED to use 100% internal on every single stance you do.
GJ. He is using XL18Z. Giving it all he got, 100% effort. Is there a need for 100% internal used on blocking a stance or dodging a stance? Sometimes, yes, but everytime? No. There almost never is 100% useage of internal on everystance if it is regular combat. The ONLY exception that I can think of is if 2 people are competing internal face on. In this case, there can be no trickery, it's all based on true strength and ability of internal.

Examples: GJ and H7G at that final stance. There was no area where you can use any time of trickery or sort. You HAD to use 100% of your internal to fully compete. H7G and OYF in that final battle in ROCH. All internal, no trickery. Dog Beating Stick wasn't going to get H7G out of that mess. ZWJ and the 3 Du Monks fighting internal with internal, both side giving 100% internal. Yin Tian Zheng matching palm as hard as he can to try to get as close as possible on Dunan. Yin Tian Zheng giving 100% of internal.

Those were all purely internal competitions. The only time I think GJ was competing internal with internal was the last stance against H7G. So, no. Even though GJ was giving 100% effort, he may not neccesary be using 100% internal. And H7G we know is using 80% INTERNAL, not effort. H7G saw HYS using 70% INTERNAL, not effort. So H7G most likely was using 80% internal, not effort.

As for GJ defending. GJ was likely using near 100% internal at that last 100 stance of HYS. The first 200 stances was different. And as for H7G, the only one was most likely the last stance. The first 200 stanes for HYS, was probably like what I said earlier, some times using 100% internal, sometimes not. But definitely giving all the effort there. GJ for sure was giving some 100%, some not for most of the 299 stances. Just because GJ uses Vacant Fist, do you think he'll put 100% internal into a art that uses chiao jin? No. That's not the principle of Vacant Fist, chiao jin is. 9 Yin weaponary, do you think GJ needs to use 100% internal on a weakened palm energy? No. If GJ needed to still use 100% internal to defend it, he should just move back even more and just let it weaken further so that he needs to use 50% to defend it.

As for GJ fainting near the end of HYS's round. That's not because he ran out of internal. That's because the last stance of HYS is Chi Men 5 Suan. That final stance made GJ spin and spin and spin. GJ had to use chian jin dwai to try to stabilize himself and XL18Z's energy to force himself to stop. Who wouldn't feel dizzy after spinning that fast and so much?

[Ren Ying Ying]

another long post filled will repeats...*sigh*

looks like the fight between H7G and GJ cannot be setted unless we clarify

1. who's qinggong is better and on what basis

2. what exactly is the condition of Mt. Hua. open space? limited peaks?

3. how much percent effort/internal energy was GJ using against HYS & H7G, and how much effort were the two greats putting in.

4. to what level of technique did 9yin bring GJ...and on top of that, what is the potential of 9yin and how well did GJ master 9yin by the time of the 2nd Mt. Hua tournament

5. how much did GJ having a sword matter in his fight with H7G, compared to if he used his Dragon palms instead. advantage? disadvantage? no effect?

6. how good a fighter was H7G? dope, average, genius, everything in between?

7. any other points we need to settle of this fight...please add. then, make a thread on these points and hopefully, OTHER ppl will make a comment. or else, this debate is obviously NOT going anywhere because it's just me and you repeating ourselves b/c i don't see how you make your assumptions and vice versa (no...this is not up for debate! ). then perhaps, if we can reach an agreement on H7G vs. GJ at 2nd Mt. Hua tourny, then we can continue. ")

btw, GJ was seeing stars before he started spinning. in fact, he started spinning after HYS backed off, but it's actually the 后劲 of HYS's internal energy that caused GJ to go spinning.

[Whsie]

sigh.... you're right, this is getting nowhere. And I've been needing to study lately myself with summer work.
Let's...... just each keep our own opinion for now. You know that last post nearly took me an hour to type.

[Ren Ying Ying]

lol...sorry for making u write an hr. but really, i do suggest at least creating a thread on GJ vs. H7G and the conditions of their fight, at least other people can spend hrs typing up posts on it :P.

[Whsie]

btw, GJ was seeing stars before he started spinning. in fact, he started spinning after HYS backed off, but it's actually the 后劲 of HYS's internal energy that caused GJ to go spinning.

Yes, that is how it works. I think it is this: HYS realized it was stance #299. HYS used Chi Men 5 Zuan. HYS would first match palm to palm with GJ. And HR would call 300! HYS backs off, but the After Energy was still going. And that caused GJ to spin around and around. That After energy came from Chi Men 5 Zuan.
And either way, I'm not surprised GJ was seeing stars. HYS's Falling Leave Divine Sword Palm contains a lot of fakes and real techniques. Of course GJ would be confused at the speed HYS was using them. Too confusing for GJ. But I doubt GJ was seeing stars because of internal useage.

[Ren Ying Ying]

um...seeing how just before the description it's talking about how GJ feels as if mountains are pressing on him and each stance is harder and harder to defend, i'm pretty close to 99% sure it's cuz of internal power...or at least power, not so much speed.

anywayz, i will start the thread...please add questions if you feel they are needed and i will edit.

and here is the premise of the thread...you and i are free to argue with anyone else in the thread, but not each other, no matter how much we disagree with each other (or else it'll just be me and you repeating ourselves again)...okay? if you have a better idea, please do tell

[Whsie]

um...seeing how just before the description it's talking about how GJ feels as if mountains are pressing on him and each stance is harder and harder to defend, i'm pretty close to 99% sure it's cuz of internal power...or at least power, not so much speed.

anywayz, i will start the thread...please add questions if you feel they are needed and i will edit.

and here is the premise of the thread...you and i are free to argue with anyone else in the thread, but not each other, no matter how much we disagree with each other (or else it'll just be me and you repeating ourselves again)...okay? if you have a better idea, please do tell

It's probably both. Speed+power.

I concur. No arguement between the 2 of us. Only with other people.

[Western Eccentric]

Give YG HIS then he would easily destroys any of DFBB FQY and RWX..

[Ken Cheng]

Give YG HIS then he would easily destroys any of DFBB FQY and RWX..

Not 100% sure about Dung Fong But Bai. Even Fung Ching Yeung wouldn't be a gimme. I'm fairly confident that Yam Ngor Hang would go down.

[Western Eccentric]

End ROCH YG (without HIS) not weaker than DFBB IMHO I mean they are on par so with HIS YG would "destroy" DFBB..

[Ken Cheng]

End ROCH YG (without HIS) not weaker than DFBB IMHO I mean they are on par so with HIS YG would "destroy" DFBB..

WuxiaMaster has Dung Fong But Bai at Level 85, while Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor at the end of ROCH are Level 80. I don't see any compelling reason to disagree with WuxiaMaster's assessment here.

[Western Eccentric]

WuxiaMaster has Dung Fong But Bai at Level 85, while Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor at the end of ROCH are Level 80. I don't see any compelling reason to disagree with WuxiaMaster's assessment here.

He also place Bat King at Lv 50 and XLN (post L/R hand skill) at Lv 70 but We know they are not much "better" than Dragon King (Lv 45) or LOCH GJ (Lv 65) I mean they "higher" level not make them certainlly "win" same like DFBB against GJ/YG/XF..