Team Condor v Team Smiling Wanderers

[Whsie]

and what makes you think it's the greats that were catching up to GJ/YG at any point? where does it at any point in the novel say that GJ/YG were better than the greats????

H7G only fired ten feet???? i clearly remember you saying in a previous post that H7G's palms were maybe 2 zhang?? 1 zhang =3.3 meters...1m>>3 feet...that'z at least 20 feet. i don't know what passage you are refering to, but did it say that this was H7G's max range?

HYS still used a pebble for gold wheel monk at end of ROCH. it's not rare to fire energy out of one's finger. think 1 deng & 1yang finger. and speaking of finger, qiu chu ji mentioned in ROCH that even 1 deng may not be able to carve words onto wood with his finger...where as the shaolin abbot & the beggar clan leader were able to.

That's it, you forced me to show how bad the LOCH period Greats are with quotes.

Btw. 10 feet ~ 1 zhang = 3.3 meters.

Du Nan (the weakest Du Monk in HSDS) 当下拚得一掌，便向后退出半步，拚到十余掌后，已退到丈许之外。哪知“须弥山掌”乃少林派七十二绝艺之一，渡难在这掌法上浸淫数十载，威力实是非同小可， In this Du nan attacked a bit farther than 10 feet.

This was in LOCH times of H7G: 洪七公将降龙十八掌使将开来，掌风扫到一丈开外，郭靖虽有铁萧，又哪能近身还击？ H7G was also shown here to hit a bit farther than 10 feet.
Based on this, I dare to say that H7G during LOCH period is ~ 1 Du Monk of HSDS period.

And we know ZWJ is not weaker than all 3 Du monks combined. 张无忌的内劲之强，并不输与三僧联手. So..... that means ZWJ is ~ or > than 3 Greats combined of LOCH period (WCY can't be one of them). So yes, ZWJ can beat 2 Greats of LOCH period like toys.

And HYS had to use pebble in the end because it was fired from too far away. Even Sweeper Monk can't fire from that distance. 树林离他尚有百余步，但这粒小石子不知由何神力奇劲激发，形体虽小，破空之声却响亮异常，对准面门疾射而来。法王举银轮一挡， 拍的一响，小石子撞在轮上，登时碎成数十粒，四下飞溅，脸上也溅到了两粒，虽然石粒微细，伤他不得，却也隐 隐生疼。法王又是一惊：“这粒小石子从如此远处射来，竟撞得我轮子晃动，此人功力之强，决不在那老和尚和老 顽童之下，怎地天下竟有如许高手？” So yeah... of course HYS had to use pebbles.

[Ren Ying Ying]

That's it, you forced me to show how bad the LOCH period Greats are with quotes.

Btw. 10 feet ~ 1 zhang = 3.3 meters.

Du Nan (the weakest Du Monk in HSDS) 当下拚得一掌，便向后退出半步，拚到十余掌后，已退到丈许之外。哪知“须弥山掌”乃少林派七十二绝艺之一，渡难在这掌法上浸淫数十载，威力实是非同小可， In this Du nan attacked a bit farther than 10 feet.

This was in LOCH times of H7G: 洪七公将降龙十八掌使将开来，掌风扫到一丈开外，郭靖虽有铁萧，又哪能近身还击？ H7G was also shown here to hit a bit farther than 10 feet.
Based on this, I dare to say that H7G during LOCH period is ~ 1 Du Monk of HSDS period.

And we know ZWJ is not weaker than all 3 Du monks combined. 张无忌的内劲之强，并不输与三僧联手. So..... that means ZWJ is ~ or > than 3 Greats combined of LOCH period (WCY can't be one of them). So yes, ZWJ can beat 2 Greats of LOCH period like toys.

And HYS had to use pebble in the end because it was fired from too far away. Even Sweeper Monk can't fire from that distance. 树林离他尚有百余步，但这粒小石子不知由何神力奇劲激发，形体虽小，破空之声却响亮异常，对准面门疾射而来。法王举银轮一挡， 拍的一响，小石子撞在轮上，登时碎成数十粒，四下飞溅，脸上也溅到了两粒，虽然石粒微细，伤他不得，却也隐 隐生疼。法王又是一惊：“这粒小石子从如此远处射来，竟撞得我轮子晃动，此人功力之强，决不在那老和尚和老 顽童之下，怎地天下竟有如许高手？” So yeah... of course HYS had to use pebbles.

first of all, just because both H7G and some shaolin monk fired to a distance of 10 feet away doesn't mean crap. unless it said that H7G can fire no further, then it's just an instance where h7g made gj to beyond 10 feet or du nan forcing ZWJ beyond 10 feet. of course, likewise, Du Nan's distance can also be much farther than 10 feet. Still, just because in an instance, both fired at 10 feet, doesn't mean they are equal. just like duguxiaojing said, just b/c Xiang Wen Tian can make a print with his feet on the concrete w/o using water buckets like Jue Yuan, does that mean XWT>>>Jue Yuan? at the begining of ROCH, GJ and OYF decided to touch palms when fighting...does that mean GJ's max distance is 0????

secondly, if h7g's palms can only go a max distance of 10 feet/1 zhang...why does GJ even bother using the metal flute to fight??? he might as well just stand there and save energy. and let's not mention this is H7G not trying hard, so he doesn't beat GJ in less than 200 strokes as not to make HYS look bad.

so HYS was too far away? 1 deng can fire finger energy from farther away than HYS without using pebbles--does that mean 1 deng>>HYS? oh i dearly hope not!

the only incidence that i recall HYS using the finger flick in post 16 yr ROCH was when he & YG were testing each others palms by toying with the ex mongol servants. but the description only said something along the lines of an energy/power came from his fingertips and he was able to break/dissolve YG's palms. breaking stance/defense is a lot different from attacking/offense. in LOCH, GJ was able to defend against H7g's palms with his sword but you think he could've attacked well? i doubt so.

[Whsie]

first of all, just because both H7G and some shaolin monk fired to a distance of 10 feet away doesn't mean crap. unless it said that H7G can fire no further, then it's just an instance where h7g made gj to beyond 10 feet or du nan forcing ZWJ beyond 10 feet. of course, likewise, Du Nan's distance can also be much farther than 10 feet. Still, just because in an instance, both fired at 10 feet, doesn't mean they are equal. at the begining of ROCH, GJ and OYF decided to touch palms when fighting...does that mean GJ's max distance is 0????

secondly, if h7g's palms can only go a max distance of 10 feet/1 zhang...why does GJ even bother using the metal flute to fight??? he might as well just stand there and save energy. and let's not mention this is H7G not trying hard, so he doesn't beat GJ in less than 200 strokes as not to make HYS look bad.

so HYS was too far away? 1 deng can fire finger energy from farther away than HYS without using pebbles--does that mean 1 deng>>HYS? oh i dearly hope not!

the only incidence that i recall HYS using the finger flick in post 16 yr ROCH was when he & YG were testing each others palms by toying with the ex mongol servants. but the description only said something along the lines of an energy/power came from his fingertips and he was able to break/dissolve YG's palms. breaking stance/defense is a lot different from attacking/offense. in LOCH, GJ was able to defend against H7g's palms with his sword but you think he could've attacked well? i doubt so.

H7G and Dunan weren't firing farther. If H7G could fire farther, why did he not? Dunan might have been able(because Yin Tian Zheng kept on stepping back), but the majority of the forum doubt so. Using Long Distance attack is something not found in any of the Qing Dynasty series which can be sufficient evidence of why Trilogy Fighters better. Similiarly, since LDA is not easily performable, and the farther the harder, the farther at least generally will give you the relative strength of the opponent. The reason why the ROCH didn't mention much LDA is because JY wasn't as creative until HSDS and later. It was said by scholars that HSDS was the start of creativness in JY and DGSD just further developed that creativeness and imagery.
H7G may be holding back a bit, but he can't hold back too much because HYS was overwhelmed at first and I think H7G noticed that. So even "holding back", H7G was probably still using 80% plus. And you have to realize that it wasn't just H7G blasting and GJ dodging, it was them both moving around. So when GJ moves back, H7G moves in.
You don't get it.... DGSD mentions that max distance of palm is 50 feet. And finger energy due to the fact that is more focused, should have less distance (but faster). HYS shot his pebble to JLFW at more than 100 steps which is more than 50 feet. NO ONE, including Sweeper Monk or Yideng or DY can shoot that far using finger energy. And Yideng shot outside of 10 feet (didn't mention where Yideng stopped moving back). And HYS shot at least 20 feet of finger energy. No.... they are the same..... you defend palm energy with finger energy and you also attack with finger energy.... It wasn't breaking, it was dissolving, meaning matching power to power dissolving each other. And GJ's case was because he couldn't use LDA that far even if he could at LOCH time period. And GJ was just dodging, not dissolving. Two different things.
And the best evidence is when it's mentioned that JLFW's skill grew by at least 2X. 当年他败在杨过和小龙女剑下，引为生平奇耻大辱，此时功力既已倍增，

[Whsie]

Never read this battle, perhaps you could provide the text. Anyways that pretty much proves my point. JY's inner power was said to be roughly equal to GJ(1dengs, and later the rest of the greats and ZWJ in HSDS), yet he could not make foot prints deep into the ground without his heavy buckets of water. So because YTZ can make foot prints into the ground does that make him far superior to a great?

Thats pretty much what you are doing with the HYS and FZ comparison.

You can't make the the JY and XWT example for 2 reasons.
1.
JY stepped and got in 5 inches.
XWT stepped and got in 2 inches.
2.
这石板乃以少室山的青石铺成。坚硬如铁，数百年人来人往，亦无多少磨耗， The material of JY's stepping is MUCH stronger than just regular stone floor that XWT stepped on.
3.
You may say, JY counted on his extra weight. Well, let me ask you. If you were to carry that weight around and step on that stone, do you think you will be making marks just by stepping on those super strong stones? doubt so. The weight may have helped a bit, but definitely not a lot because just by regularily stepping on it is not going to give you even .5 inch.

[duguxiaojing]

And the best evidence is when it's mentioned that JLFW's skill grew by at least 2X. 当年他败在杨过和小龙女剑下，引为生平奇耻大辱，此时功力既已倍增，

I have no doubt that all the greats had all improved tremendously during the 16 year seperation, but just one thing to keep in mind. When GJ and HR heard what YG did to NMX, they commented that only him and H7G had such agressiveness in their inner power(they did not know that YG had become so powerful). So although H7G had died some 18 years before some aspects of his inner power was still comparable to the rest of the living greats.

You can't make the the JY and XWT example for 2 reasons.

Come one now, so the stone in SOD is weaker .

Anyways, it was mentioned by the monk(forgot his name) that he knew no matter how powerful ones inner power was JY would not be able to make markings that deep into the stone without the buckets of water.

[Whsie]

I have no doubt that all the greats had all improved tremendously during the 16 year seperation, but just one thing to keep in mind. When GJ and HR heard what YG did to NMX, they commented that only him and H7G had such agressiveness in their inner power(they did not know that YG had become so powerful). So although H7G had died some 18 years before some aspects of his inner power was still comparable to the rest of the living greats.

That's it, AGRESSIVENESS is not the same thing as deepness.
Some internal such as yin types of ZZR is considered yin or soft and passive internal.
Hard internals like H7G is yang, meng, hard, and aggressive internals.
It just tells the type, but not how deep the internal is.

[duguxiaojing]

That's it, AGRESSIVENESS is not the same thing as deepness.

Ya, thats why I said, "some aspects".

[Whsie]

Come one now, so the stone in SOD is weaker .

Anyways, it was mentioned by the monk(forgot his name) that he knew no matter how powerful ones inner power was JY would not be able to make markings that deep into the stone without the buckets of water.

Yes..., not just weaker, a lot weaker. Described to be almost as hard as iron. Regular stone floor is not even close to iron. The material is also VERY critical. LCY was able to carve out of stone using fingers. How so? That's because the material was weak and designed ahead of time. This proves that material is very critical. And JY not only make a mark that is deeper, but also out of a much stronger material.
That monk may have say so, but it's not from the author's view. Like that stone was described from JY's view. That JLFW's increase of mutiple times is described from JY's view. Shaolin at highest level ~ 9 Yang is also said from JY's view. Not being able to fire over 50 feet is also said from JY's view. That stone stuff was said from the monk's view, not JY's view. You can use other character's view in comparision if the character is comparing internal because he would know that this character has 100 points while this guy has 110 points and comparision made. However, you can't use fighter's view to compare feats because that person's knowledge is sometimes limited to the era or what he has seen and belief. The best example is when Yin Gu thought Yideng was the one that made that "thunderstorming and heavy wind" sound. When she saw YG, she couldn't believe it was YG because YG was only in his 30s. That means that certain people's view are limited. Cho Chu Ji of QZ 7 said that it was impossible to make carve out of a stone with finger, but who knows? Cho Chu Ji just never saw or seen a person who's level has reached that scale that is able to do so. In BXJ, Yuan Chen Zhi's si brother's disciple thought that it was impossible to break a sword with energy. He thought it was magic. He didn't believe it until YCZ's master did it.
And I've said it before, having a material as strong as that, why would there be no major marks if someone only needs 400+ jin to make a imprint. The majority still has to be internal.

[Whsie]

Ya, thats why I said, "some aspects".

Agressiveness in internal is not hard to master learn. Just because mine internal is more agressive than yours, that does not mean me>you.
The best example is Z3F who's internal is clearly more soft than hard. Yet he was mentioned by JY directly (before ZWJ showed up as the 2nd strongest fighter in the era) to have the #1 power in xin fa. 张三丰所授的心法，以威力而论，可算得上天下第一。This was said when Z3F was trying to heal ZWJ from the xuanmin poison.

[Whsie]

当年他败在杨过和小龙女剑下，引为生平奇耻大辱，此时功力既已倍增，
The point of this quote is to show Ren Ying Ying that all the Greats have increased a lot in order to still maintain ~ with JLFW. This was 16 years.
The years between Pre 22 ROCH and LOCH was 14 years, if the Greats could all improve that much in the 16 year period, why can't they also increase that much during the 14 year period?
That is why I still hold the belief that ZWJ, YG, GJ at peak is at least ~ or more likely >3 Greats of LOCH period. And that quote is implying ZWJ, YG, GJ at peak is ~ 2 Greats of Pre 16 Years ROCH.

[Ren Ying Ying]

H7G and Dunan weren't firing farther. If H7G could fire farther, why did he not? Dunan might have been able(because Yin Tian Zheng kept on stepping back), but the majority of the forum doubt so. Using Long Distance attack is something not found in any of the Qing Dynasty series which can be sufficient evidence of why Trilogy Fighters better. Similiarly, since LDA is not easily performable, and the farther the harder, the farther at least generally will give you the relative strength of the opponent. The reason why the ROCH didn't mention much LDA is because JY wasn't as creative until HSDS and later. It was said by scholars that HSDS was the start of creativness in JY and DGSD just further developed that creativeness and imagery.
H7G may be holding back a bit, but he can't hold back too much because HYS was overwhelmed at first and I think H7G noticed that. So even "holding back", H7G was probably still using 80% plus. And you have to realize that it wasn't just H7G blasting and GJ dodging, it was them both moving around. So when GJ moves back, H7G moves in.
You don't get it.... DGSD mentions that max distance of palm is 50 feet. And finger energy due to the fact that is more focused, should have less distance (but faster). HYS shot his pebble to JLFW at more than 100 steps which is more than 50 feet. NO ONE, including Sweeper Monk or Yideng or DY can shoot that far using finger energy. And Yideng shot outside of 10 feet (didn't mention where Yideng stopped moving back). And HYS shot at least 20 feet of finger energy. No.... they are the same..... you defend palm energy with finger energy and you also attack with finger energy.... It wasn't breaking, it was dissolving, meaning matching power to power dissolving each other. And GJ's case was because he couldn't use LDA that far even if he could at LOCH time period. And GJ was just dodging, not dissolving. Two different things.
And the best evidence is when it's mentioned that JLFW's skill grew by at least 2X. 当年他败在杨过和小龙女剑下，引为生平奇耻大辱，此时功力既已倍增，

H7G couldn't not fire? how so? didn't we already say that H7G was not even using max power? i would say since HYS only used at most 70% against GJ for the first 200 strokes, i doubt H7G used more. more so ever, why does H7G need to fire farther? and it said GJ is about 1 zhang away...for H7G to reach GJ with some power, he'd gotta be able to fire farther away. think about it...GJ after learning one stance of dragon plams for a couple hours could fire at least a few feet against the herby snake guy who wants to drink his blood?

and again...we are talking about condor trilogy group vs smiling wander group...do i care what he said in DGSD or the Qing Dynasty? yea, i care about that as much as i care about whether the local restaurant xiao er is more powerful or whether the random carriage carrier is more powerful. Honestly, how does what happens in DGSG or Qing dynasty even matter to this argument...unless they compared certain characters? i don't know...did they?

okay, so JY didn't get creative until HSDS...i still don't care. two thirds of the condor group comes from pre HSDS. doesn't that even prove my point even more...that LOCH's H7G shouldn't be limited to a 10 feet palm range.

Yes, HYS was at a far distance that it's nearly impossible to fire from that far...yes i know! but, i don't see how that helps your argument or counters mine because it never proved your statement that HYS needed pebbles in LOCH but didn't need them in ROCH. neither, do i remember anywhere that said HYS's attacking range was below 50 feet or whatever distance it was in LOCH.

It was said that 1 deng and gold wheel guy was at a distance of 3.3 meters/zhang plus...god knows how far that is. still since JY did not mention specific measurements, the range could be from zhang to infinity. and if it was ONLY just more than 1 zhang...doesn't that further mean that post 16 yr ROCH greats are not more than twice as powerful as LOCH greats????

dissolving means matching in power yes...does that mean distance? further...does it mean HYS no longer needs pebbles to perform the same deed he did with pebbles? don't forget, the pebbles are only for distance attacks. HYS can just as likely send the same power by flicking something else (ie people). doesn't mean his finger has to perform distances.

[duguxiaojing]

Yes..., not just weaker, a lot weaker. Described to be almost as hard as iron. Regular stone floor is not even close to iron. The material is also VERY critical. LCY was able to carve out of stone using fingers. How so? That's because the material was weak and designed ahead of time. This proves that material is very critical. And JY not only make a mark that is deeper, but also out of a much stronger material.

Well thats debatable, remember that the sentence you quoted was mentioned after HZD used a sharp stone to draw a chess board into it. Also XWT, did his feat effortlessly, he simply stood on the stone and using his inner power forced the foot prints to appear. JY used the chain on his feet to scrape away at the chess board, and he was tiring out from exerting that much pressure into his legs, seems like what XWT did was more impressive to me.

About what you said here:

That monk may have say so, but it's not from the author's view

It was spoken from an authors perspective: JY(the author said) that Tian Ming knows no matter ones inner power ect ect....

天鸣等自知一人内......

Turns out that it is JY's view(the author not Tian mings)

Agressiveness in internal is not hard to master learn. Just because mine internal is more agressive than yours, that does not mean me>you.

Again, i never argued that reread what i wrote again. I agreed that the living greats had improved...although not to the extent which you believe. I just wanted to show that the forcefullness(is that a word? ) of H7G's inner power is still comparable to GJ and YG's.

[Ren Ying Ying]

当年他败在杨过和小龙女剑下，引为生平奇耻大辱，此时功力既已倍增，
The point of this quote is to show Ren Ying Ying that all the Greats have increased a lot in order to still maintain ~ with JLFW. This was 16 years.
The years between Pre 22 ROCH and LOCH was 14 years, if the Greats could all improve that much in the 16 year period, why can't they also increase that much during the 14 year period?
That is why I still hold the belief that ZWJ, YG, GJ at peak is at least ~ or more likely >3 Greats of LOCH period. And that quote is implying ZWJ, YG, GJ at peak is ~ 2 Greats of Pre 16 Years ROCH.

oh dear, according to that theory, the greats all double their power in just 16 yrs? considering that they are all 90+, the amount of improvement in 16 years is at least equal to or more than what they achieved in like 70 yrs?????!

what is this exponential improvement?

[Ken Cheng]

oh dear, according to that theory, the greats all double their power in just 16 yrs? considering that they are all 90+, the amount of improvement in 16 years is at least equal to or more than what they achieved in like 70 yrs?????!

Yeah, I have a problem with this idea too. At the end of LOCH, the Greats were already in their 60s. I figure that they had to have been pretty close to the peak of their powers and even if they hadn't reached the peak yet, they were so close to it that any improvement they would make thereafter would be tiny increments rather than huge quantum leaps. I figure that by age 60, the Greats had already done most of the improvement that they were going to do; they were close to maxing out their growth potential and whatever gains they would make until they die would be relatively small gains...nothing like DOUBLING their existing abilities.

[Whsie]

Well thats debatable, remember that the sentence you quoted was mentioned after HZD used a sharp stone to draw a chess board into it. Also XWT, did his feat effortlessly, he simply stood on the stone and using his inner power forced the foot prints to appear. JY used the chain on his feet to scrape away at the chess board, and he was tiring out from exerting that much pressure into his legs, seems like what XWT did was more impressive to me.

About what you said here:

It was spoken from an authors perspective: JY(the author said) that Tian Ming knows no matter ones inner power ect ect....


Turns out that it is JY's view(the author not Tian mings)

HZD was only able to get in .5 inch using internal.
XWT didn't do his feat effortlessly. It only seems from the surface that XWT seemed to have done it effortlessly because he made no expressions. However, I have a feeling that XWT was trying hard because he was trying to impress(at the same time get the position for LHC) everyone with his internal which he clearly did. It is the same case where JMZ used his near his max internal to speak loudly to impress everyone as much as possible so that the monks won't be as daring to fight him(because fighting against the whole Shaolin is just stupid).

That's not from a author's perspective. This is a author's perspective- 九阳神功和少林派内功练到最高境界，可说难分高下。但西域“金刚门”的创派祖师火工头陀是从少林寺中偷学的 武艺。拳脚兵刃固可偷学，内功一道却讲究体内气息运行，便是眼睁睁的瞧着旁人打坐静修，瞧上十年八年，又怎 知他内息如何调匀、周天如何搬运？因此外功可偷学，内功却是偷学不来的。“金刚门”外功极强，不输于少林正 宗，内功却远远不及了。这阿二是“金刚门”中的异人，天生神力，由外而内，居然另辟蹊径，练成了一身深厚内 功，造诣早已远远超过了当年的师祖火工头陀，
If you read through this whole paragraph, there isn't any mention of this guy thinking whatever and this guy thinking whatever. This was completely written by JY's voice and mind. JY is like telling us whatever whatever.
In contrast: 天鸣等自知一人内力再强. The Tian generation knew it from THEMSELVES. In other words, this is coming form the Tian generation's mind. And the info from their mind as I said earlier is limited by era, belief, and what they see(like they won't be seeing someone as strong as Xu Zhu at that time).

[Ren Ying Ying]

HZD was only able to get in .5 inch using internal.
XWT didn't do his feat effortlessly. It only seems from the surface that XWT seemed to have done it effortlessly because he made no expressions. However, I have a feeling that XWT was trying hard because he was trying to impress(at the same time get the position for LHC) everyone with his internal which he clearly did. It is the same case where JMZ used his near his max internal to speak loudly to impress everyone as much as possible so that the monks won't be as daring to fight him(because fighting against the whole Shaolin is just stupid).

That's not from a author's perspective. This is a author's perspective- 九阳神功和少林派内功练到最高境界，可说难分高下。但西域“金刚门”的创派祖师火工头陀是从少林寺中偷学的 武艺。拳脚兵刃固可偷学，内功一道却讲究体内气息运行，便是眼睁睁的瞧着旁人打坐静修，瞧上十年八年，又怎 知他内息如何调匀、周天如何搬运？因此外功可偷学，内功却是偷学不来的。“金刚门”外功极强，不输于少林正 宗，内功却远远不及了。这阿二是“金刚门”中的异人，天生神力，由外而内，居然另辟蹊径，练成了一身深厚内 功，造诣早已远远超过了当年的师祖火工头陀，
If you read through this whole paragraph, there isn't any mention of this guy thinking whatever and this guy thinking whatever. This was completely written by JY's voice and mind. JY is like telling us whatever whatever.
In contrast: 天鸣等自知一人内力再强. The Tian generation knew it from THEMSELVES. In other words, this is coming form the Tian generation's mind. And the info from their mind as I said earlier is limited by era, belief, and what they see(like they won't be seeing someone as strong as Xu Zhu at that time).

According to that theory then, it is very likely that ZSF is way more powerful than GJ, and hence ZWJ can be way more powerful than GJ/YG. in that case, what makes you think that the three shaolin elders cannot match a post ROCH great? And actually, in that case, we cannot even make the judgement that HYS, Yi deng, and ZBT are on the same lvl b/c it's JLFW that is judging.

of course we can't trust anything that JY says through his characters...cuz you know, JY definitely wants to mislead his readers by putting nonsense thoughts into his character's heads

[duguxiaojing]

XWT didn't do his feat effortlessly. It only seems from the surface that XWT seemed to have done it effortlessly because he made no expressions. However, I have a feeling that XWT was trying hard because he was trying to impress(at the same time get the position for LHC) everyone with his internal which he clearly did. It is the same case where JMZ used his near his max internal to speak loudly to impress everyone as much as possible so that the monks won't be as daring to fight him(because fighting against the whole Shaolin is just stupid).

Well thats your opinion anyways...it didnt state that he had tried very hard in the novel. Also keep in mind he was talking while he preformed that feat.

In contrast: 天鸣等自知一人内力再强. The Tian generation knew it from THEMSELVES. In other words, this is coming form the Tian generation's mind. And the info from their mind as I said earlier is limited by era, belief, and what they see(like they won't be seeing someone as strong as Xu Zhu at that time).

Ya, the author is stating a fact through a character. He said that Tian Ming KNEW, not that he believed or that he thought. But perhaps someone with good knowledg of english and chinese comprehension can please help out here?

[Whsie]

H7G couldn't not fire? how so? didn't we already say that H7G was not even using max power? i would say since HYS only used at most 70% against GJ for the first 200 strokes, i doubt H7G used more. more so ever, why does H7G need to fire farther? and it said GJ is about 1 zhang away...for H7G to reach GJ with some power, he'd gotta be able to fire farther away. think about it...GJ after learning one stance of dragon plams for a couple hours could fire at least a few feet against the herby snake guy who wants to drink his blood?

and again...we are talking about condor trilogy group vs smiling wander group...do i care what he said in DGSD or the Qing Dynasty? yea, i care about that as much as i care about whether the local restaurant xiao er is more powerful or whether the random carriage carrier is more powerful. Honestly, how does what happens in DGSG or Qing dynasty even matter to this argument...unless they compared certain characters? i don't know...did they?

okay, so JY didn't get creative until HSDS...i still don't care. two thirds of the condor group comes from pre HSDS. doesn't that even prove my point even more...that LOCH's H7G shouldn't be limited to a 10 feet palm range.

Yes, HYS was at a far distance that it's nearly impossible to fire from that far...yes i know! but, i don't see how that helps your argument or counters mine because it never proved your statement that HYS needed pebbles in LOCH but didn't need them in ROCH. neither, do i remember anywhere that said HYS's attacking range was below 50 feet or whatever distance it was in LOCH.

It was said that 1 deng and gold wheel guy was at a distance of 3.3 meters/zhang plus...god knows how far that is. still since JY did not mention specific measurements, the range could be from zhang to infinity. and if it was ONLY just more than 1 zhang...doesn't that further mean that post 16 yr ROCH greats are not more than twice as powerful as LOCH greats????

dissolving means matching in power yes...does that mean distance? further...does it mean HYS no longer needs pebbles to perform the same deed he did with pebbles? don't forget, the pebbles are only for distance attacks. HYS can just as likely send the same power by flicking something else (ie people). doesn't mean his finger has to perform distances.

Nope. H7G fired 10 feet, but GJ never was able to get IN 10 feet. So that is saying GJ is about 10 feet from H7G. All H7G had to do was just increase the palm energy distance than it could hit GJ, why didn't he(he would win, if he did so)? I think it's that H7G didn't have the capability yet. Dude, H7G saw HYS was losing with 70%, do you think H7G would also use 70% to get beated? No. So I believe holding back is actually somewhere around 80%.

The point of DGSD and and Qing era was to show that LDA is capable of being used to relatively compare how strong whoever is compared to someone else.

Explained that 10 feet stuff above.

Not nearly impossible, but IS impossible(I don't care if it's Sweeper Monk, Duan Yu , Duan Yu, or Mu rong Bo, all impossible). Guess you never saw the famous 50 feet quote....天下武术之中，任你掌力再强，也决无一掌可击到五丈以外的。And it's said that since finger energy is more focused, it can't get as far out. And this is said DIRECTLY from JY's view and mind. So this is 100% useable. And based off this, HYS HAS to use pebble to hit JLFW afterall 100+ steps is farther than 50 feet.

Somewhere between 10 - 50 feet actually.

You need to read more specifically on this one: 黄杨两人相隔数丈，你一掌来，我一掌去， This meant that YG/HYS were just there blasting palm energies at one another not moving, just matching from "several zhang" or anything between 20-50 feet (remember, the quote above said 50 feet is max).
Later, when Falling Leave Sword Palm wasn't useful anymore, he had to use Divine Flick and from the same distance fire finger energy. 自忖掌力不足以与之对抗，伸指一弹，嗤的一声轻响，一股细细的劲力激射出去，登时将杨过拍出的掌力化解了。 HYS clearly was using finger energy at a bare minimum of 20 feet and he directly dissovled YG's palm energy.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Nope. H7G fired 10 feet, but GJ never was able to get IN 10 feet. So that is saying GJ is about 10 feet from H7G. All H7G had to do was just increase the palm energy distance than it could hit GJ, why didn't he(he would win, if he did so)? I think it's that H7G didn't have the capability yet. Dude, H7G saw HYS was losing with 70%, do you think H7G would also use 70% to get beated? No. So I believe holding back is actually somewhere around 80%.

The point of DGSD and and Qing era was to show that LDA is capable of being used to relatively compare how strong whoever is compared to someone else.

Explained that 10 feet stuff above.

Not nearly impossible, but IS impossible(I don't care if it's Sweeper Monk, Duan Yu , Duan Yu, or Mu rong Bo, all impossible). Guess you never saw the famous 50 feet quote....天下武术之中，任你掌力再强，也决无一掌可击到五丈以外的。And it's said that since finger energy is more focused, it can't get as far out. And this is said DIRECTLY from JY's view and mind. So this is 100% useable. And based off this, HYS HAS to use pebble to hit JLFW afterall 100+ steps is farther than 50 feet.

Somewhere between 10 - 50 feet actually.

i don't care if GJ is outside of 10 feet or not. GJ was playing defense, meaning that even outside of 10 feet, he still had to block/dodge H7G's attacks or else he would just be jumping around dodging, not using a sword. HYS did not LOSE at 70%, he simply could not over overcome GJ with 70%. since he was keen not to defeat GJ in 200 strokes...why would he be using more than 70%? whichevers actually, 70 or 80, H7G was not using full power. and still, i don't see WHY H7G would want to increase the distance? If GJ can keep away at 10 feet, why not 200 feet? it entirely does not matter.

yes someone who can fire 100 feet compared to someone who can only do 5 feet under the same circumstances, 100 feet person wins. that still doesn't prove crap because for one, you have not proven h7g's max in LOCH is 10 feet, and you have not given a number on how far the greats CAN fire in ROCH. the only distance you have given is HYS firing a pebble from afar, which even you agree that is not to be compared with palm/qi. whether HYS must use a pebble or not from over 50 feet has no relation to whether or not one can fire their palms fifty feet or not. you must first prove that HYS is able to do the same deeds without a pebble as the same deeds he did in LOCH with a pebble, which you have not shown. it's like i'm trying to prove that earth is bigger than mars, but you're giving evidence that the sun is bigger than the moon. So? WHAT does that prove in relation to the argument?

[Whsie]

According to that theory then, it is very likely that ZSF is way more powerful than GJ, and hence ZWJ can be way more powerful than GJ/YG. in that case, what makes you think that the three shaolin elders cannot match a post ROCH great? And actually, in that case, we cannot even make the judgement that HYS, Yi deng, and ZBT are on the same lvl b/c it's JLFW that is judging.

of course we can't trust anything that JY says through his characters...cuz you know, JY definitely wants to mislead his readers by putting nonsense thoughts into his character's heads

And where did I said that Z3F and ZWJ is above GJ/YG? Though JY said it through Z3F's mind, but as I said earlier, comparision of internal is reliable through a character because it's not bounded by beliefs of a era/personal knowledge. If you were talking about Z3F having the #1 xin fa, then that is only during Z3F's era and before ZWJ showed up.
We can actually use it to a certain extent because JLFW is stated by JY that GJ would need 1000+ stances to win. And it's also general opinion of the forum that JLFW is ~ a Great. Even after 16 Years, JLFW was still ~ a Great even though JLFW may win due to age advantage. Yideng and JLFW's battle and ZBT's battle all showed that the Great weren't much weaker than JLFW after JLFW increased so much over the 16 year period.
Yes, that is why I said Tian generation's words aren't reliable while the words Jin Yong said directly from his mind is 100% good.