Ultimate Ranking of the Monks

[Whsie]

I don't think there was this thread after randomly searching throughout the section.

I'm just curious what the ranking of the monks should be.
Plz note XZ, Damo, JMZ, MRB, XYS, Cheng Kwun, Xie Xun, Jue Yuan are not included.
XZ eventually is considered more Xiao Yiao. Damo's info is too vague. JMZ never really was a good monk, and he is more a Tibetan monk. MRB/XYS each had their energies dissolved by Sweeper. Cheng Kwun never really meant to be in Shaolin except to learn some martial art. Xie Xun dissolved his own martial art. JY is not included because he.... was kicked out.

1. Sweeper Monk (I think it should be obvious)

And from this point on, give your personal rankings/opinions.

[Extremer88]

Interesting. Wonder how the Monk who mastered 13 Shaolin Sumpreme Arts would fare against the creator of Luohan Fumuo Shengong.

[Whsie]

very UNOFFICIAL ranking. I may easily forget some monk from whatever book.

2. 23 Supreme Divine Monk (Pre DGSD)-he became legendary, only one to master 23 supreme art
3. Creator of Luo Han Shen Gong (Unknown)-based on ability of SPT, he must be good.
4. Kurong (DGSD)- Celestial Temple leader
5.. Xuanci (DGSD)-best of Shaolin during his period
6.. ShenShan (DGSD)-best of india fighters
7-8. 3 Du Generation (HSDS)- combined, Great level. Separtely, they have more experience than the most monks. And their internal is extremely pure.
10. Kongjian (HSDS)-9 Yang shaolin+Diamond Unbreakable Body
11. Wu Se (HSDS)-Shaolin 9 Yang
12-13. top Xuan Generation- Xuannan and Xuan something. -knew some of the 72 supreme art, able to cause some trouble to Elite figters
forgot the name. (DGSD)
14.. Ku Zhi (Pre LOCH, mentioned in HSDS)- Damo leader. Knew some of 72 supreme art.
15. Fangzhang (XAJH)- practiced YJJ (though it's a weaker version...), and Thousand Hand Palm.
16-17. TianMing (HSDS)- leader of Shaolin during Early HSDS. No match for Hu Zu Dao. But apparently still has to be strong. And 昙华 leader of another Shaolin. Said to be the equal named to Tian monk.
18. Kong Zhi (HSDS)-learned 11 supreme art (not neccesary master).
19. Fangshen (XAJH)-shown some good ranged attacks, 2nd best monk during XAJH period.
20. Miao Di (ode of gallantary)- leader of Shaolin and best fighter in Shaolin during his period which technically saying should have deterioted from XAJH period. And he apparently was no match for either Long or Mu Lord.

If you disagree, tell me why..

[K2Grey]

If Bengyin is the same guy as Kurong then I would put him above Xuanci, based on how Kurong is significantly better than Duan Zhengming who is in turn better than Duan Yanqing by a little. I'm not sure exactly how I made the logical connection between DYQ and XuanCi but nevertheless it feels appropriate to stick Kurong at top.

Also I'd say that the Xuan monks should be above WuSe. Wasn't WuSe around at Shaolin when He Zudao came along? He should be below TianMing then.

[Whsie]

If Bengyin is the same guy as Kurong then I would put him above Xuanci, based on how Kurong is significantly better than Duan Zhengming who is in turn better than Duan Yanqing by a little. I'm not sure exactly how I made the logical connection between DYQ and XuanCi but nevertheless it feels appropriate to stick Kurong at top.

Also I'd say that the Xuan monks should be above WuSe. Wasn't WuSe around at Shaolin when He Zudao came along? He should be below TianMing then.

I'll move Kurong.

Plz note that the Wu Se that I'm ranking is the one that made Shaolin 9 Yang. Originally, Wu Se was not stronger than TianMing or xuan monks, but after Shaolin 9 Yang was learned and created, I'm more favoring Wu Se.

[Extremer88]

Plz note that the Wu Se that I'm ranking is the one that made Shaolin 9 Yang. Originally, Wu Se was not stronger than TianMing or xuan monks, but after Shaolin 9 Yang was learned and created, I'm more favoring Wu Se.

Wuse only understood 1/3 of the 9Yang that Jueyuan recited. It's kind of hard to rank Wuse above the "Xuan" generation monks. I believe Wuse surpassed Tianming though.

[PJ]

Wuse and all of the other Shaolin monks during the time of HSDS were inferior to "Kunlun 3 Saints" He Zudao, whom I didn't get the impression to be *that* good. I think that Abbot Fangzheng of SPW should be better than those monks. I consider Abbot Fangzheng, Reverend Kongjian, and Abbot Xuanci to be at around the same level, but that is just my personal instinct.

[Athena]

very UNOFFICIAL ranking. I may easily forget some monk from whatever book.

2. 13 Supreme Monk (Pre DGSD)-he became legendary, only one to master 13 supreme art
3. Creator of Luo Han Shen Gong (Unknown)-based on ability of SPT, he must be good.
4. Kurong (DGSD)- Celestial Temple
5.. Xuanci (DGSD)-best of Shaolin during his period
6.. ShenShan (DGSD)-best of india fighters
7-8. 3 Du Generation (HSDS)- combined, Great level. Separtely, they have more experience than the most monks. And their internal is extremely pure.
10. Kongjian (HSDS)-9 Yang shaolin+Diamond Unbreakable Body
11. Wu Se (HSDS)-Shaolin 9 Yang
12-13. top Xuan Generation- Xuannan and Xuan something. -knew some of the 72 supreme art, able to cause some trouble to Elite figters
forgot the name. (DGSD)
14.. Ku Zhi (Pre LOCH, mentioned in HSDS)- Damo leader. Knew some of 72 supreme art.
15. Fangzhang (XAJH)- practiced YJJ (though it's a weaker version...), and Thousand Hand Palm.
16-17. TianMing (HSDS)- leader of Shaolin during Early HSDS. No match for Hu Zu Dao. But apparently still has to be strong. And 昙华 leader of another Shaolin. Said to be the equal named to Tian monk.
18. Kong Zhi (HSDS)-learned 11 supreme art (not neccesary master).
19. Fangshen (XAJH)-shown some good ranged attacks, 2nd best monk during XAJH period.
20. Miao Di (ode of gallantary)- leader of Shaolin and best fighter in Shaolin during his period which technically saying should have deterioted from XAJH period. And he apparently was no match for either Long or Mu Lord.

If you disagree, tell me why..

First of all, I think you need to get your facts straight.
1. The Shaolin monk who mastered the most of the 72 arts lived at the beginning of the Song dynasty. He mastered 23 Arts. Chapter 10, DGSD (edition 2 + 3).
* There is a small contradiction here, according to abbot Kongwen (HSDS), no Shaolin disciple (secular and monk) has ever mastered more than 13 arts. There used to be a reference in DGSD in a later chapter that only there was only one monk who mastered 13 Arts, that was the maximum. In edition 3, Jin Yong removed that reference and in DGSD there is only the mentioning of the Shaolin monk who mastered 23 Arts. The creator of the [Shifting North Star technique] Murong Longcheng also lived around that time and Murong Longcheng was proclaimed to be the number 1 of the martial arts world.

6. Master Shenshan (or abbot Shenshan) was NOT an Indian monk, he was the abbot of the Qingliang Monastery on Wutai Mountain. He was the peer of abbot Xuanci, together they were called The Dragon Subduing Arhat and Tiger Taming Arhat. The novel never clearly indicated who was the DSA and who was TTA.
The Indian monks do not exist anymore in edition 3.
12 - 13. The average Xuan generation Shaolin monk knew 5 to 6 of the Ultimate Arts.
14. Zen Master Kuzhi, he was the head of the Dharma Hall of Shaolin. So?
16. Abbot Tanhua [曇華大師] was NOT a leader of another Shaolin. He was the abbot of an entire different monastery. He was the abbot of the Foguang Monastery on Mount Wutai. He was the peer of abbot Tianming.

Most senior Shaolin monks (the eldest generation of monks of each era) knew some of the ultimate arts. It's just a matter of knowing how many and how good.

[Whsie]

Wuse and all of the other Shaolin monks during the time of HSDS were inferior to "Kunlun 3 Saints" He Zudao, whom I didn't get the impression to be *that* good. I think that Abbot Fangzheng of SPW should be better than those monks. I consider Abbot Fangzheng, Reverend Kongjian, and Abbot Xuanci to be at around the same level, but that is just my personal instinct.

I knew Wuse would be controversial....
Again the Wuse I'm talking about is the one that HAS LEARNED Shaolin 9 Yang. Though it would not certainly suddenly boost him suddenly above Xuanci, Benyin, or Shenshan, but it certainly would get him a MUCH higher level of skill. And seeing how yonng Z3F with only a very very minor portion of 9 Yang, young Z3F beated Hu Zu Dao. Well, the Wuse got about 1/3 of 9 Yang. Well......, doesn't that practically tell us Wu Se for sure would be able to easily beat Hu Zu Dao after he learned Shaolin 9 Yang?

[Whsie]

Wuse only understood 1/3 of the 9Yang that Jueyuan recited. It's kind of hard to rank Wuse above the "Xuan" generation monks. I believe Wuse surpassed Tianming though.

And 1/3 of 9 Yang is really strong.....
And I have to be clear about this 1/3.
This was what the case was: 9 Yang in info would take 5 years to learn and 5 year of info is A LOT of info that cannot be finished in just one night. Even if Jue Yuan spoke super fast, he would have trouble even reaching 50%. That's why 9 Yang was likely to be spoken to about 33-40% if Jue Yuan spoke fast. Out of that 40% that Jue Yuan recited, Wuse could have got 33%/max total of 40%. If you're talking like that, then I find it believable that Wuse at least in internal aspect (not neccesary external), is able to par up with Xuan monks or even surpass. If you're talking that out of 40% max, Wuse only got 13%...., then no, even I admit there is no way Wuse can beat Xuan monks.

[Whsie]

First of all, I think you need to get some information correct.
1. The Shaolin monk who mastered the most of the 72 arts lived in the beginning of the Song dynast. He mastered 23 Arts. Chapter 10, DGSD (edition 2 + 3).
* There is a small contradiction here, according to abbot Kongwen (HSDS), no Shaolin disciple (secular and monk) has ever mastered more than 13 arts. There used to be a reference in DGSD in a later chapter that only there was only one monk who mastered 13 Arts, that was the limit. In edition 3, Jin Yong removed that reference and in DGSD there is only the mentioning of the Shaolin monk who mastered 23 Arts. The creator of the [Shifting North Star technique] Murong Longcheng also lived around that time and Murong Longcheng was proclaimed to be the number 1 of the martial arts world.

6. Master Shenshan (or abbot Shenshan) was NOT an Indian monk, he was the abbot of the Qingliang Monastery on Wutai Mountain. He was the peer of abbot Xuanci, together they were called The Dragon Subduing Arhat and Tiger Taming Arhat. The novel never clearly indicated who was the DSA and who was TTA.
The Indian monks do not exist anymore in edition 3.
12 - 13. The average Xuan generation Shaolin monk knew 5 to 6 of the Ultimate Arts.
14. Zen Master Kuzhi, he was the head of the Dharma Hall of Shaolin. So?
16. Abbot Tanhua [曇華大師] was NOT a leader of another Shaolin. He was the abbot of an entire different monastery. He was the abbot of the Foguang Monastery on Mount Wutai. He was the peer of abbot Tianming.

Most senior Shaolin monks (the eldest generation of monks of each era) knew some of the ultimate arts. It's just a matter of knowing how many and how good.

Oh, it's changed to 23 in the new edition? Ok. Originally, it was this: 故老相传，上代高僧之中曾
有人兼通一十三门绝技，号称“十三绝神僧”，少林寺建寺数百年，只此一人而已。少林诸
高僧固所深知，神山、道清等也皆洞晓。要说一身兼擅七十二绝技，自是欺人之谈。
But since it's a new edition, then scratch what I said earlier. He still is #2 so far in my rank- 23 Supreme Divine Monk.

Shenshan, well... I admit I don't have the actual book copy of DGSD so I can't study it as deep as the other novels (I personally don't have DGSD and DOMD, but I have everything else). I only have the e-book copy of the 2nd edition. As for 3rd edition, I just read some of it at the book store (you know, take a peak )

Yes, Xuan monks knew 5 or 6. It still exists in the old edition. The reason why Xuan monks was probably rated lower to most people's opinion is because for one thing, none of these monks were showed to learn any art like Kongjian's Diamond Unbreakable Body. According to Xie Xun, this was one of the top 3 art of his time. And that may give me the impression that Diamond Unbreakable Body may not only be a 72 Supreme Art, but also one of the 13 or 14 described in DGSD as "very hard" to learn Supreme Arts. As for Du Generation. Du Monks may not neccesary be stronger than the strong Xuan monks, but I highly doubt Xuan monks were able to match up the Du Monk's internal purity which was described as incredible by ZWJ. And no doubt experience area, the Du Monks are also better than the Xuan generation.

The reason I put Ku Zhi the place where it is because Shaolin at this time didn't start its decline to its dark age in LOCH yet. This gives me the impression that since it didn't start declining yet, then the monks of the Pre LOCH generation could very possibly be around the Xuan of DGSD. And that's why Ku Zhi is where he is. Plus Kuzhi is the leader of Dharma. So I placed him a bit below Xuannan or Xuansomething in the rank.

I should have been more clear on 曇華大師. But Athena explained it. But he was described as equal named to TianMing, so I rated them together.

[Whsie]

hold on, I just realized JY may have contradicted himself right here.

2nd edition:

Chp 10- 据说少林自创派以来，除了宋初曾有一位高僧身兼二十三门绝技之外，从未有第二人曾练到第二十门 以上。

Chapter 39 or 40- 故老相传，上代高僧之中曾
有人兼通一十三门绝技，号称“十三绝神僧”，少林寺建寺数百年，只此一人而已。少林诸
高僧固所深知，神山、道清等也皆洞晓。要说一身兼擅七十二绝技，自是欺人之谈。

So is it 23 or 13????

[K2Grey]

Athena already covered that.

I'd say Z3F and his remarkable fight with He Zudao has more to do with Z3F himself than with 1/3 of 9 Yang given that Mie Jue wasn't that remarkable (and I assume the 6 heroes knew it too).

[PJ]

I knew Wuse would be controversial....
Again the Wuse I'm talking about is the one that HAS LEARNED Shaolin 9 Yang. Though it would not certainly suddenly boost him suddenly above Xuanci, Benyin, or Shenshan, but it certainly would get him a MUCH higher level of skill. And seeing how yonng Z3F with only a very very minor portion of 9 Yang, young Z3F beated Hu Zu Dao. Well, the Wuse got about 1/3 of 9 Yang. Well......, doesn't that practically tell us Wu Se for sure would be able to easily beat Hu Zu Dao after he learned Shaolin 9 Yang?

In that case, I have 2 comments.

1. Since you are considering Wuse after his final appearance in the novel, then Presumably, He Zudao also continued to live and practice martial arts until he probably lived to 70+ years. Shouldn't we consider He Zudao and everybody else by the same standards, that is, give them the benefit of doubt that they continued to improve greatly after their final novel appearance?

2. Wuse learned 1/3 of 9 Yang, while Abbot Fangzheng learned Yijinjing. Which one is better in your opinion?

[Whsie]

In that case, I have 2 comments.

1. Since you are considering Wuse after his final appearance in the novel, then Presumably, He Zudao also continued to live and practice martial arts until he probably lived to 70+ years. Shouldn't we consider He Zudao and everybody else by the same standards, that is, give them the benefit of doubt that they continued to improve greatly after their final novel appearance?

2. Wuse learned 1/3 of 9 Yang, while Abbot Fangzheng learned Yijinjing. Which one is better in your opinion?

1. The only problem is that the other monks on the list, we don't know for sure what type of improvement they may have or had. Wuse is the only obvious one that we know for sure to have learned Shaolin 9 Yang.
Example: GJ, we know he has improvement, but just regular improvement.(though worth noting, but nothing new or extremely big)
YLQ- he most likely improved dramatically after the events of ROCH since in addition to his QZ arts, he also learned XL18Z+Dog Beating Stick. That's a new improvement or big improvement.
Wuse would be more like YLQ's improvement instead of GJ's. As the other monks are more like GJ's way of improvement.
2. Don't know for sure myself actually. Most of this forum suggest that these 2 YJJ may possibly be different. If it was the old DGSD one, then no doubt. Even the full 9 Yang wouldn't be able to handle it. But I'm a bit suspicious of the new YJJ.
I guess it's everyone's opinion on this one. It may very possibly be that this XAJH YJJ originated from the old one(just like how Yang faimly Taichi originated from Chen faimly). Don't know.

[Extremer88]

hold on, I just realized JY may have contradicted himself right here.

2nd edition:

Chp 10- 据说少林自创派以来，除了宋初曾有一位高僧身兼二十三门绝技之外，从未有第二人曾练到第二十门 以上。

Chapter 39 or 40- 故老相传，上代高僧之中曾
有人兼通一十三门绝技，号称“十三绝神僧”，少林寺建寺数百年，只此一人而已。少林诸
高僧固所深知，神山、道清等也皆洞晓。要说一身兼擅七十二绝技，自是欺人之谈。

So is it 23 or 13????

As of Edition 3 onwards, its 23 Supreme Arts... even I was surprised.

[Polar-kun]

Pre-LOCH Shaolin seems quite strong, especially KuZhi. Kitchen Monk only learned superficial version of some Supreme Arts and more than 100 years later his distant disciples (Ah 2, Ah 3, Kong Sheng) are still above most top-class fighters in HSDS.

[a_tumiwa]

First of all, I think you need to get your facts straight.
1. The Shaolin monk who mastered the most of the 72 arts lived at the beginning of the Song dynasty. He mastered 23 Arts. Chapter 10, DGSD (edition 2 + 3).
* There is a small contradiction here, according to abbot Kongwen (HSDS), no Shaolin disciple (secular and monk) has ever mastered more than 13 arts. There used to be a reference in DGSD in a later chapter that only there was only one monk who mastered 13 Arts, that was the maximum. In edition 3, Jin Yong removed that reference and in DGSD there is only the mentioning of the Shaolin monk who mastered 23 Arts. The creator of the [Shifting North Star technique] Murong Longcheng also lived around that time and Murong Longcheng was proclaimed to be the number 1 of the martial arts world.

hold on, I just realized JY may have contradicted himself right here.

2nd edition:

Chp 10- 据说少林自创派以来，除了宋初曾有一位高僧身兼二十三门绝技之外，从未有第二人曾练到第二十门 以上。

Chapter 39 or 40- 故老相传，上代高僧之中曾
有人兼通一十三门绝技，号称“十三绝神僧”，少林寺建寺数百年，只此一人而已。少林诸
高僧固所深知，神山、道清等也皆洞晓。要说一身兼擅七十二绝技，自是欺人之谈。

So is it 23 or 13????

and in the first edition, that shaolin monk who lived at the beginning of song dynasty learnt 36 arts of total 72

[PJ]

Some notably missing:

-Yideng
-Xuancheng / Xuandeng - mentioned by Sweeper Monk as the #1 MA'er from Shaolin in 200 years, who unfortunately fire deviated.
-Lin Yuantu

I think Jiaomu will be last in all cases