Relationship Question

[Laviathan]

What is more despicable?

1. Having fallen in love with someone (but not yet having a relationship with said person) and still flirting with other people of the opposite sex.

2. Being engaged with someone, but still starting a relationship with someone else, without telling BF/GF about engagement.

This is not OT.

[Ken Cheng]

Neither is an optimal situation, but in Item 2, one needs to consider the conditions of the engagement. Was that engagement by choice, or was it forced upon the individual by circumstances beyond his/her control? Would it be better to honor the engagement even if it lacks sincerity?

[IcyFox]

This is not OT.

Of course not. But it will be, soon...

The Official Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[Ken Cheng]

Of course not. But it will be, soon...

The Official Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

Nah, that's a martial arts only thread. It won't be merged.

We'd better make the wuxia aspect of this evident soon, however, or I'm going to start getting complaint PMs about allowing off-topic threads on the Wuxia Forum.

[Laviathan]

Neither is an optimal situation, but in Item 2, one needs to consider the conditions of the engagement. Was that engagement by choice, or was it forced upon the individual by circumstances beyond his/her control? Would it be better to honor the engagement even if it lacks sincerity?

Oh, so one does not need to consider the conditions of Situation No. 1? We must only consider Situation No. 2 with utmost understanding and compassion, while we must condemn Situation No. 1 with severe judgement?

Remember, in Situation No. 1, the person in question is:

1. not sure about his own feelings
2. not sure about the feelings of the other party
3. not in engaged in a love relationship with other party
4. not experienced in communicating with other people of the opposite sex, apart from said other party

[Ken Cheng]

Oh, so one does not need to consider the conditions of Situation No. 1? We must only consider Situation No. 2 with utmost understanding and compassion, while we must condemn Situation No. 1 with severe judgement?

Remember, in Situation No. 1, the person in question is:

1. not sure about his own feelings
2. not sure about the feelings of the other party
3. not in engaged in a love relationship with other party
4. not experienced in communicating with other people of the opposite sex, apart from said other party

If we're talking about whom I think we're talking about here, Individual 1 had unmitigated freedom of choice. Individual 2, not so much.

[Laviathan]

Please explain. If I remember correctly, no one was actually forced to be engaged. Furthermore, it is no more than polite to inform your would-be girlfriend or boyfriend about you being engaged.

[Ken Cheng]

Please explain. If I remember correctly, no one was actually forced to be engaged.

The most (politically) powerful man in the world decides he wants me as a son-in-law. To turn him down would be considered a great affront to him. Nevertheless, I *try* to tell him (and his daughter) that I'd really rather not, but to no avail. How now?

Furthermore, it is no more than polite to inform your would-be girlfriend or boyfriend about you being engaged.

Yes, that would be a good idea. It finally came out, didn't it? Voluntarily and without any cajoling?

[Yeung Gor]

If by engagement, if it is the case you ask the father for the hand in marriage of his daughter, then situation 2 is worse.

[Ken Cheng]

If by engagement, if it is the case you ask the father for the hand in marriage of his daughter, then situation 2 is worse.

It's more the father forcing the daughter upon the individual.

[IcyFox]

The most (politically) powerful man in the world decides he wants me as a son-in-law. To turn him down would be considered a great affront to him. Nevertheless, I *try* to tell him (and his daughter) that I'd really rather not, but to no avail. How now?

You tell him that he's not the great hero he thinks he is. And there's nothing much he can do about it except mumble "Hero..." to himself.

So why not tell him how you feel about his daughter as well?

[Ken Cheng]

You tell him that he's not the great hero he thinks he is. And there's nothing much he can do about it except mumble "Hero..." to himself.

Probably because Individual 2 hasn't lost enough respect for the father-figure to actually say that to him at this point, and probably hasn't come to believe it yet himself.

So why not tell him how you feel about his daughter as well?

Because at this point, Invididual 2 still has enough fondness and respect for the father and daughter to not want to offend them, but can't conceive of a way to reject the father and daughter's good intentions without offending them.

[Yeung Gor]

It's more the father forcing the daughter upon the individual.

In that case, the would-be groom should kindly decline the offer and announce he wants to marry his master, I mean, a different girl that he loves.

[Laviathan]

The most (politically) powerful man in the world decides he wants me as a son-in-law. To turn him down would be considered a great affront to him. Nevertheless, I *try* to tell him (and his daughter) that I'd really rather not, but to no avail. How now?

Firstly, Temujin at that point of the story is merely the chosen leader of all Mongolian tribes, becoming Genghis Khan. He was not the most powerful man in the world (yet). Contrary to what *you* like to believe, Guo Jing did not try to tell Genghis Khan and Huazheng. He went back to ask his mom, who consulted with his six teachers. After making sure that Yang Kang is a boy, not a girl, Guo Jing went back to Genghis Khan and asked his permission to go south, kill Duan Tiande and then return to marry Huazheng.

Yes, that would be a good idea. It finally came out, didn't it? Voluntarily and without any cajoling?

Uh, because said fiancee actually showed up? And you call that voluntarily?

If the above-mentioned questions of this poll were put forward, every NORMAL person with a BASIC level of COMMON sense would say that option 2 is despicable. If we were to look at the context of said situations, then both Guo Jing and Yang Guo's actions become understandable. But somehow, some people here just like to use double standards, to act unfair, and (excuse me for saying so) to act like a bigot.

[Ken Cheng]

In that case, the would-be groom should kindly decline the offer and announce he wants to marry his master, I mean, a different girl that he loves.

In this case, the individual in question has no love interest in conflict (that comes later). It's a matter of wanting to respond graciously in appreciation for a lifetime of generosity and support.

[Ken Cheng]

Firstly, Temujin at that point of the story is merely the chosen leader of all Mongolian tribes, becoming Genghis Khan. He was not the most powerful man in the world (yet). Contrary to what *you* like to believe, Guo Jing did not try to tell Genghis Khan and Huazheng. He went back to ask his mom, who consulted with his six teachers. After making sure that Yang Kang is a boy, not a girl, Guo Jing went back to Genghis Khan and asked his permission to go south, kill Duan Tiande and then return to marry Huazheng.



Uh, because said fiancee actually showed up? And you call that voluntarily?

If the above-mentioned questions of this poll were put forward, every NORMAL person with a BASIC level of COMMON sense would say that option 2 is despicable. If we were to look at the context of said situations, then both Guo Jing and Yang Guo's actions become understandable. But somehow, some people here just like to use double standards, to act unfair, and (excuse me for saying so) to act like a bigot.

Lav, I have great respect for you and your knowledge of wuxia, but I can't help but feel that this thread is less a discussion of wuxia themes and more a personal attack on me and my views.

If you've got a problem with me, just tell me upfront (preferably privately, not here).

This is not something that just appeared spontaneously in this thread. It's been heading in this direction for a long time. If you must have it out with me, all right. But not here; not like this.

[email protected]

The private message box is also open, as always.

[IcyFox]

In this case, the individual in question has no love interest in conflict (that comes later). It's a matter of wanting to respond graciously in appreciation for a lifetime of generosity and support.

And so finds himself in danger of becoming wishy-washy, like another individual who couldn't choose between 4 girls.

[IcyFox]

Anyway we might as well use the individual's actual character names, since we already know who we're talking about.

To Lav: Cool it first. You can't win over the Yang Guo-haters so easily. There might be too many of them for you to debate with.

[Yeung Gor]

In this case, the individual in question has no love interest in conflict (that comes later). It's a matter of wanting to respond graciously in appreciation for a lifetime of generosity and support.

Marrying someone whom he doesn't love out of appreciation is already betraying his heart. The moment he realizes that he doesn't love the girl he is engage to then he should end the engagment so that the likelyhood he finds someone who he wants to marry, he can date her openly without any guilt. Also by ending the engagement early can allow the would-be bride to move on instead of leading her on the entire time.

In scenerio one, the guy commits the sin by leading someone on with his flirtatious behavior but it is still rather innocent since he is just being playful. It is the descretion of the girl to decide wether he is serious or kidding. But the point is the crime is a misdeamor at best and not necessarily a sign that the guy is unsure of his feeling of love for his girl but just a reflection of his character.

However, in scenerio two, the guy commits the sin by not breaking off the engagment which ultimately lead not just the girl on but her entire family to believe this marriage will take place. There is no confusion on their part. So the crime is a felony. And the girl who suffers not only a broken heart but a badly injure reputation of being rejected publicly.

So in comparison, scenerio 2 is still worse.

[IcyFox]

To Ken: I'll try to speed up the LoCH translation so that folks who haven't read them can do so soon, and appreciate the events from JY's point of view, and not TVB's.