ZWJ the ultimate fighter if lived in ROCH?

[Whsie]

Would ZWJ be the ultimate fighter if he lived in ROCH period with more Great level arts availible? ZWJ's only Great Level external is Z3F's most original Tai Chi.
But if ZWJ had lived in ROCH, would he overwhelm everyone with these evidence?

1.要知天下诸般内功，皆不逾九阳神功之藩篱，而乾坤大挪移运劲使力的法门，又是集一切武功之大成，一法通 ，万法通，任何武功在他面前都已无秘奥之可言。

This is practically saying that 9 Yang's theories on internal+QKDLY's movement of energies' way and use of energy (Reserve, Trickery, Frontal Energies, all types of energy or jing) makes ZWJ know all types and understand all. Any art in front of him no longer contains something special that he can learn anymore.

2. 这时练成乾坤大挪移神功，不论哪一家哪一派的武功都能取而为用。
Translation: At this time after mastering QKDLY, no matter what faimly or what sect's martial art can all be taken and used.

This is saying that ZWJ can practically "steal" other people's arts. I'm thinking this quotation is saying that any art that is external can all be taken and used. But I doubt internal because you can't see how the breathe process goes for each external, so I think this quote applies for external only.

3. 张无忌这时却已看全了龙爪手三十六式抓法，其本身虽无破绽可寻，但乾坤大挪移法却能在对方任何拳招中造成破 绽，
Translation: ZWJ at this time has already seen the whole 36 stance of Dragon Claw Hand, though the art itself originally contains no weakeness, but QKDLY can cause weaknesses in any opposition's stance.

4. 空性低头沉思，一时想不通其中道理，说到这龙爪手上的造诣，便是师兄空闻、空智，甚至当年空见师兄，也均及 自己不上，何以这少年接连两招，都能后发先至，而且出招的手法劲力、方向部位，更是稳迅兼备，便如有数十年 苦练之功一般？

Translation: Kongxin lowered his head and thought, for a while he couldn't understand the reason, speaking in Dragon Claw's mastery, Kongwen, Kongzhi, even Kongjian back then, is not up to his level, why is this young person consecutively 2 stances, attack after being attacked, also the stance of the hand's energy, the direction and position, are all firm and fast, like as if being practicing several 10 years (in other words, 20s, 30s or more of years of practice).

So this is practically saying. Any art in front of him, he can perfectly understand it. He can cause weakeness in arts. He can "steal" any external arts. And after "stealing" the art, he can execute the art with perfection like 20+ years of practice.

So if ZWJ was in ROCH and saw GJ use all 18 stances XL18Z, saw Yideng use Solitary Yang Finger, saw ZBT use all 72 stances Vacant Fist, saw HYS use Divine Flick, saw HR use all 36 stances of Dog Beating Stick, wouldn't ZWJ become the ultimate fighter of ROCH? And each art according to what is shown above would allow ZWJ to have what seems like 20+ years of mastery after shown just once in front of him. So ZWJ wouldn't be just another MRF.

[Ken Cheng]

I think Cheung Mo Gei would have more raw power than anybody in ROCH (although Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor can't be all that far behind), but each of the ROCH Greats has loads more combat experience and formal training in fighting than Cheung Mo Gei did. In some ways, it'd be like fighting a younger, heroic, kinder version of the Golden Wheel Monk.

Cheung Mo Gei was able to overwhelm his opponents easily in HSDS because nobody he fought was ever close to being his peer in inner power, and his Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee enabled him to effectively neutralize their skills. He never did fight another Greats-level fighter in HSDS, however, so we can't say he's ever been tested against an opponent whom we can really call his peer. In ROCH, there were five who could certainly be called his peers.

[Whsie]

yes, but in potential, wouldn't ZWJ be MILES ahead of the Greats? The Greats can still combat with better experience and ability (which ZWJ both are weaker). But in terms of potential, wouldn't ZWJ kill? Let's say ZWJ had 10 more years of experience. Wouldn't he be able to destroy any of those Greats? ZWJ may possibly move up to the Xiao Yiao 3 Elders tier.

Btw, the reason Sad Palm was left out was because the art was "linked" to the heart in feeling. So I don't think QKDLY is that good at that.

[Ken Cheng]

yes, but in potential, wouldn't ZWJ be MILES ahead of the Greats?

Potentially, yes, quite possibly. I think that if we're going to take Cheung Mo Gei and transplant him into ROCH, however, we have to take the best Cheung Mo Gei that we *know* (i.e. the one at the end of HSDS), not a projected Cheung Mo Gei a decade or two decades down the line.

Otherwise, we'd have to project for the ROCH Greats too and it could get messy *really* fast.

[duguxiaojing]

So if ZWJ was in ROCH and saw GJ use all 18 stances XL18Z, saw Yideng use Solitary Yang Finger, saw ZBT use all 72 stances Vacant Fist, saw HYS use Divine Flick, saw HR use all 36 stances of Dog Beating Stick, wouldn't ZWJ become the ultimate fighter of ROCH? And each art according to what is shown above would allow ZWJ to have what seems like 20+ years of mastery after shown just once in front of him. So ZWJ wouldn't be just another MRF.

I have some doubts that ZWJ could copy XL18Z unless he understands the internal power generation of the art as well. He could copy the stances all he wants but it wont do him any good, because it is the force powering the palms that give them their strength...i dont think the stances are all that special. The way I see its similar to toad stance, ZWJ can lean forward push his palms out make some weird noises but unless he understands the internal portion of the art it would be useless to him.

Same with the DBS. YG was taught stance for stance of the DBS and he could mimic them well, but it wasnt very effectice until he was taught the verbal formula to teach him how to use and apply the technique.


Anyways back 2the topic ...potentially ZWJ could be the greatest out of them all...in his early 20 he is on par with all the other greats.

[Whsie]

I have some doubts that ZWJ could copy XL18Z unless he understands the internal power generation of the art as well. He could copy the stances all he wants but it wont do him any good, because it is the force powering the palms that give them their strength...i dont think the stances are all that special. The way I see its similar to toad stance, ZWJ can lean forward push his palms out make some weird noises but unless he understands the internal portion of the art it would be useless to him.

Same with the DBS. YG was taught stance for stance of the DBS and he could mimic them well, but it wasnt very effectice until he was taught the verbal formula to teach him how to use and apply the technique.


Anyways back 2the topic ...potentially ZWJ could be the greatest out of them all...in his early 20 he is on par with all the other greats.

XL18Z is completly external. 这降龙十八掌可说是外门武学中的巅峰绝诣，It specifically says that XL18Z is external. And the inner aspect of energy use is all able to be learned by ZWJ. And that was why I gave the Dragon Claw example. Kongxin said that his 手法劲力 or hand energy is perfected. And also 要知天下诸般内功，皆不逾九阳神功之藩篱，而乾坤大挪移运劲使力的法门，又是集一切武功之大成，一法通 ，万法通，任何武功在他面前都已无秘奥之可言。QKDLY also teaches all the types of how to use the inner energies. So I still believe ZWJ can completly learn XL18Z within one time.

[CC]

I suppose these type of 'counter all' , learn all' and 'defeat all' descriptions in JY's stories need to be taken with a pinch of salt and consideration of their current context.

LHC's DG9J was supposed to defeat all techniques, Xu Zhu's skill was supposed to 'grasp the essense of all techniques' yadda yadda.

You end up with the classic 'Mao Dun' situation once you try to piece them together.

In the end, martial arts is dead, the person is alive. So even if ZWJ can grasp their techniques, he might not win.

Although by 'potential', ZWJ is miles ahead due to his young age when he mastered 9 Yang. Only the 3 DGSD brothers have theoretically more potential then ZWJ if extrapolation is taken into account. Oh, and that 'ocean jumping' guy too.

[R!chard]

YG with 1 or two more arms might have the potential as well

Z3F is also very talented considering how well he did against that Mongol warrior at age 16, I believe?

[Exodus]

pretty certain that GJ and YG would beat ZWJ in ROCH

[K2Grey]

I believe there was a lengthly exposition on Qiankun Danuoyi by Athena (or Leviathan, I get those two mixed up) and the conclusion was that ZWJ could, in fact, copy internal arts, because he could see how the energy was transfered, directed, moved etc. So ZWJ would be able to copy XL18Z. This does not mean ZWJ would instantly become as good at XL18Z as Guo Jing or even YLQ, since he still needs to figure out how to apply those arts in combat. But he would be able to execute all the stances and do alot of damage.

Personally I feel ZWJ > 5 New Greats. The best internal in ROCH is 9 Yin (JLFW <= GJ, IMHO). ZWJ's 9 Yang is better than 9 Yin, he did nothing but study it for 5 years and then he got the Qiankun Bag treatment which instantly boosted him up to an incredible level, so that Z3F, who felt himself as good as GJ, YG, etc. felt that ZWJ's inner power was incomparable. Then ZWJ learned QKDNY within several hours (!) which gave him extremely good usage of this monstrous inner power.

Now 9 Yin does have better external arts than 9 Yang but that's not really needed when you know Taiji. And then Z3F helped fill in the missing gaps and by the end of HSDS ZWJ had enough combat experience to be pretty good. Note the drastic improvement between ZWJ's 1st and 3rd fights with the 3 Du monks.

[S Beaver]

XL18Z is completly external. 这降龙十八掌可说是外门武学中的巅峰绝诣，It specifically says that XL18Z is external. And the inner aspect of energy use is all able to be learned by ZWJ. And that was why I gave the Dragon Claw example. Kongxin said that his 手法劲力 or hand energy is perfected. And also 要知天下诸般内功，皆不逾九阳神功之藩篱，而乾坤大挪移运劲使力的法门，又是集一切武功之大成，一法通 ，万法通，任何武功在他面前都已无秘奥之可言。QKDLY also teaches all the types of how to use the inner energies. So I still believe ZWJ can completly learn XL18Z within one time.

i'm pretty sure by "external" it just means that it doesn't cultivate internal energy, but it requires a special channeling of internal energy, thus making it so powerful. If one can just imitate the outer moves, then the palms wouldn't be so special.

[Whsie]

No kidding..... ZWJ was getting was about to get killed against those 3 in round 1.
In round 3, if ZWJ had taken the match longer, ZWJ would have won.

[Whsie]

i'm pretty sure by "external" it just means that it doesn't cultivate internal energy, but it requires a special channeling of internal energy, thus making it so powerful. If one can just imitate the outer moves, then the palms wouldn't be so special.

Yeah, no cultivation. That was what I meant. Anything that includes cultivation is not "stealable" because you can't build up internal in a moment and you can't see how they practice that type of breathing. And the special channeling of energy would be the use of 劲力 or energy. And QKDLY has the 运劲使力的法门 or all types of energy useage way which includes reserve energy, trickery energy, etc.

[Exodus]

so what that doesn't automatically make zwj invincible in Roch. i don't think he will improve his skills much more after the end of hsds

[Whsie]

pretty certain that GJ and YG would beat ZWJ in ROCH

even after ZWJ "steals" their arts with what I said at the 1st post?
The exception is Sad Palm since it's connected to the heart.

[Exodus]

Yeah, no cultivation. That was what I meant. Anything that includes cultivation is not "stealable" because you can't build up internal in a moment and you can't see how they practice that type of breathing. And the special channeling of energy would be the use of 劲力 or energy. And QKDLY has the 运劲使力的法门 or all types of energy useage way which includes reserve energy, trickery energy, etc.

you are saying that qkdly is the best martial art there is i don't think so. could he learn 6msj after seeing DY using it?
qkdly is the best still in persia but certainly not in china...

[Whsie]

so what that doesn't automatically make zwj invincible in Roch. i don't think he will improve his skills much more after the end of hsds

I think you're underestimating 9 Yang. 9 Yang like 9 Yin, Pre Heaven are all high level daoist that have the no boundary rule. Even if you don't train super hard, it will still grow gradually. It would be the type of improvement that GJ had from Pre 16 Years ROCH to Post 16 ROCH.

[Whsie]

you are saying that qkdly is the best martial art there is i don't think so. could he learn 6msj after seeing DY using it?
qkdly is the best still in persia but certainly not in china...

No, I'm not saying QKDLY is the best. And I did say I excluded internal arts and there are arts that are exceptions. 6 Meridian Sword needs a certain extent of internal to learn and I don't think ZWJ's internal is up there yet. So no. But XL18Z's prerequisite is easily achievable by ZWJ.

[S Beaver]

No, I'm not saying QKDLY is the best. And I did say I excluded internal arts and there are arts that are exceptions. 6 Meridian Sword needs a certain extent of internal to learn and I don't think ZWJ's internal is up there yet. So no. But XL18Z's prerequisite is easily achievable by ZWJ.

If anything, ZWJ's internal should be up there, though imitating 6 mai technique may be harder. 9 yang was said to get more and more powerful as the user fight on...or it gets stronger as the opponent get stronger or something like that. But anywayz, ZWJ seemed to have an insane about internal energy that never ran out.


but regarding QKDNY, i thought it was a technique to redirect attacks/stances (thus the "perfect" channeling of energy"), but not necessarily immitate them...

[kwekmh]

No, I'm not saying QKDLY is the best. And I did say I excluded internal arts and there are arts that are exceptions. 6 Meridian Sword needs a certain extent of internal to learn and I don't think ZWJ's internal is up there yet. So no. But XL18Z's prerequisite is easily achievable by ZWJ.

I personally think that ZWJ's internal energy is enough for 6MSJ, considering how Z3F is in awe. But that does not means he can steal it, 6MSJ is an internal art.