Qwai Fa Bo Deen - powerful martial art, severe design flaw

[Ken Cheng]

During the time of STATE OF DIVINITY, the Qwai Fa Bo Deen was *the* coveted martial art of wulin. To rule the wulin of SOD, mastering the Qwai Fa Bo Deen was the way to go.

Of course, the manual had a very significant design flaw; to practice it, its practitioners (who must be male) must sacrifice their masculinity.

If you ask me, I'd say Qwai Fa Bo Deen was the preferred martial art of its time because it was the *only* elite martial art of its time. It has never been proven that the Qwai Fa Bo Deen was superior to 1 Yeung Finger/6 Mak Divine Swords, Yik Gun Ging, Bak Ming Sun Gung, Dook Goo Kau Bai's sword arts, Hong Lung 18 Palms, 9 Yum Jen Ging, 9 Yeung Jen Ging, Ha Mo Gung, Lung Jeung Bor Yeh Gung, Sad Palms, Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee, etc. Mastering any of these arts would make one a wulin elite...and at a MUCH lesser cost than practicing the Qwai Fa Bo Deen.

Consider this: you're an ambitious wulin man. On a table in front of you are the manuals for 1 Yeung Finger/6 Mak Divine Swords, Yik Gung Ging, Hong Lung 18 Palms, 9 Yum Jen Ging, 9 Yeung Jen Ging, Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee, and the Qwai Fa Bo Deen. Who in his right mind would choose the Qwai Fa Bo Deen?

This "great" martial art might be powerful, but its severe design flaw makes it the least desirable of the elite martial arts; it was only coveted in its time because it was the only one left of its kind.

[Zhuge Liang]

Well circumstances normally limit our choices. Obviously if there are alternatives then you are not likely to choose the Sunflower Scroll.

Is it confirmed that only men could learn it?

Perhaps those who are already ennuchs will not face such a dilemma. Actually would they have trouble learning some yang based arts?

[Exodus]

ofcourse if i had all the other MA manuals infront of me i would even look at QFBD. anyway i would want to learn QFBD whatsoever.

[ChronoReverse]

I think the existence of XXDF and DG9J shows that KHBD deserves some of its reputation. RWX and XXDF was monsterously powerful and only one or two people could match him in pure martial arts (i.e., not years of Ice Qi concentrated all into one instant). Likewise, DG9J easiily propel LHC into a strong fighter and then combined with an internal energy boost he became a top fighter.

LHC at the top of his game and RWX can basically dominate almost anyone in wulin. In many cases, laughably easily too. But DFBB nonetheless whipped both them simultaneously.

[immakiku]

I think the existence of XXDF and DG9J shows that KHBD deserves some of its reputation. RWX and XXDF was monsterously powerful and only one or two people could match him in pure martial arts (i.e., not years of Ice Qi concentrated all into one instant). Likewise, DG9J easiily propel LHC into a strong fighter and then combined with an internal energy boost he became a top fighter.

LHC at the top of his game and RWX can basically dominate almost anyone in wulin. In many cases, laughably easily too. But DFBB nonetheless whipped both them simultaneously.

KHBD certainly deserves its reputation, but I don't think XXDF and DG9J has put RWX and LHC up to the level of the DGSD/Condor Trilogy greats. For a simple comparison, XXDF looks to be a cruder version of BMSG; even with the complement of (IMHO cruder version of) YJJ is not going to be as complete as BMSG. Compare DG9J to YG's arts: even if we consider DG9J to be about equal to the heavy sword art, YG considered himself to have progressed well beyond that.

[R!chard]

KHBD certainly deserves its reputation, but I don't think XXDF and DG9J has put RWX and LHC up to the level of the DGSD/Condor Trilogy greats. For a simple comparison, XXDF looks to be a cruder version of BMSG; even with the complement of (IMHO cruder version of) YJJ is not going to be as complete as BMSG. Compare DG9J to YG's arts: even if we consider DG9J to be about equal to the heavy sword art, YG considered himself to have progressed well beyond that.

Actually JR himself said LHC's sword skills are superior to YG's.....

[Ken Cheng]

Actually JR himself said LHC's sword skills are superior to YG's.....

It doesn't seem that way, however. What Jin Yong says and what is described seem to be very different things. Ling Wu Chung was a fabulous swordsman, but Yeung Gor was that and more.

[R!chard]

It doesn't seem that way, however. What Jin Yong says and what is described seem to be very different things. Ling Wu Chung was a fabulous swordsman, but Yeung Gor was that and more.

I agree that in a real fight, LHC would be no match for YG.

[K2Grey]

IIRC, JY said LHC's sword techniques were much better but YG had much more inner power. Given that YG's DGQB-derived sword art functions primarily on inner power and not technique, this would seem to make sense. Especially how when YG was fighting JLFW on the tower, his sword skills weren't all that impressive (like when he grabbed the sword thrown to him and got it broken in like 1 stance).

[immakiku]

When I said DG9J ~= Heavy Sword Arts, I meant that they were both equally far on the path to formlessness. One more external; one more internal.

[ChronoReverse]

KHBD certainly deserves its reputation, but I don't think XXDF and DG9J has put RWX and LHC up to the level of the DGSD/Condor Trilogy greats. For a simple comparison, XXDF looks to be a cruder version of BMSG; even with the complement of (IMHO cruder version of) YJJ is not going to be as complete as BMSG. Compare DG9J to YG's arts: even if we consider DG9J to be about equal to the heavy sword art, YG considered himself to have progressed well beyond that.

First off BMSG put DY at a level above even the ROCH Greats. Second of all, besides the merging portion, what makes you feel that XXDF is cruder? Is this based on yet another one of those feelings that since XAJD is after DGSD (or not DGSD) therefore it must be not as good?

As for YG, he regretted not bringing his Heavy Iron sword. This doesn't indicate that he moved past that stage at all but rather is ever more dependent on it.


Mind you, I don't believe that RWX was quite at the ROCH great level, but you still can't sell him short.

[Whsie]

First off BMSG put DY at a level above even the ROCH Greats. Second of all, besides the merging portion, what makes you feel that XXDF is cruder? Is this based on yet another one of those feelings that since XAJD is after DGSD (or not DGSD) therefore it must be not as good?

As for YG, he regretted not bringing his Heavy Iron sword. This doesn't indicate that he moved past that stage at all but rather is ever more dependent on it.


Mind you, I don't believe that RWX was quite at the ROCH great level, but you still can't sell him short.

Not really for YG. YG may have reached to a certain point in wood stage, but it's just that he hasn't mastered it. Being able to defeat the condor in 3 stances, causing waves? That shows me that YG has SOME progress in the wood stage except that he hasn't mastered it yet.

Sigh... the SPW Elite and ROCH Great arguement....

[immakiku]

First off BMSG put DY at a level above even the ROCH Greats. Second of all, besides the merging portion, what makes you feel that XXDF is cruder? Is this based on yet another one of those feelings that since XAJD is after DGSD (or not DGSD) therefore it must be not as good?

As for YG, he regretted not bringing his Heavy Iron sword. This doesn't indicate that he moved past that stage at all but rather is ever more dependent on it.


Mind you, I don't believe that RWX was quite at the ROCH great level, but you still can't sell him short.

I consider XXDF cruder because it wasn't complete enough; it causes damage to its user.

[ChronoReverse]

Not really for YG. YG may have reached to a certain point in wood stage, but it's just that he hasn't mastered it. Being able to defeat the condor in 3 stances, causing waves? That shows me that YG has SOME progress in the wood stage except that he hasn't mastered it yet.

Sigh... the SPW Elite and ROCH Great arguement....

I consider that mostly still just a refinement of the Haevy Iron stage. YG at this point, although can swing the wooden sword soundlessly, still doesn't have the minute control of his chi yet.

He's made progress _towards_ the Wooden stage, but he cannot be said to have even achieve the initial stage of it.

I define the beginning of the Wooden Sword stage to be the point where such a practicioner using a wooden sword would be able to evenly match someone with equal internal energy but using a normal weapon.

I consider the achieved wooden sword stage to be where in the same situation, the wooden sword would defeat the blade user.

Finally, the completed wooden sword stage is where the practicioner is equally powerful with a wooden sword or iron.

From there on, progress may be made such that even without a weapon, the sword can be defeated.

I consider XXDF cruder because it wasn't complete enough; it causes damage to its user.

I don't and didn't deny that. Nonethesless, that's not a sufficient argument towards whether it can propel someone to Great level. Even as you take damage, the power is still there.

[Whsie]

the question remains whether or not JLFW did surpass YG in internal. Because if JLFW did, then YG having his sword broken sounds reasonable.

I consider the

mastery of wooden sword the same: use wooden sword as strong as iron sword.
achieved wooden sword: wood sword stronger than blade
initial- match equal or beat less powerful opponents.

If JLFW is stronger in internal as some suggest, then YG may have possibly reached the initial stage. It would be kind of sad that YG made no progress at all toward the wood stage since he trained 6 years on the wood stage.

[tape]

I think Sunflower scroll is more powerful than the Greats' signature moves; Dragon Palms, Toad Stance, Divine Snap, etc. In just a short span of less than a year LPZ went from a complete nobody into a fearsome fighter. GJ's leap just doesn't seem as great after Dragon Palms, especially when he was already rather formidable with his 2 years of Quan Zhen inner power while LPZ was truly pathetic. DFBB practiced Sunflower scroll for less than 15 years and he became the top of the top, much like what 9 Yin did for Guo Jing, and we know 9 Yin is superior to the other martial arts.

However arts like YJJ and 6MSJ definitely are comparable if not outright superior to this art I'd say.

[CFT]

I seem to remember a character talking about KHBD, probably the Shaolin Abbot. Unlike most orthodox arts, the KHBD is easy to learn and master, apart from a most difficult part at the begninning. And we all know what that is!

So after a "small" sacrifice one has access to a very high level martial art indeed in a very short timeframe.

[lilchilipepper]

I always wondered what would happen if a female were to try and learn the Sunflower Scroll...I mean, I'm guessing the arts must be more yin orientated since the requirement is to...ahem...OR, maybe if the arts required a person to have approximately the same yin and yang, then would a woman on steroids be able to learn it?

If so, what would happen to her? My brother suggested that if a woman tried to learn it, she might start turning into a guy...OR, would she just become more feminine? Would she be able to learn it at all, or would she mess up all her internal organs and die trying?

[Athena]

The whole key to the Sunflower Manuscript is turning sexual energy/desire into power to generate your martial arts. Eunuchs, being deprived of their sexual needs, can easily reach that stage.
My speculation is:
Women have sexual desire/energy too, like (normal) men. So, women need to rid their libido too in order to start to train the Sunflower Manuscript. How? Maybe through oophorectomy? I don't know.
However, I am quite positive women need to make sacrifices too in order to begin studying this lethal skill.

[CFT]

The whole key to the Sunflower Manuscript is turning sexual energy/desire into power to generate your martial arts. Eunuchs, being deprived of their sexual needs, can easily reach that stage.
My speculation is:
Women have sexual desire/energy too, like (normal) men. So, women need to rid their libido too in order to start to train the Sunflower Manuscript. How? Maybe through oophorectomy? I don't know.
However, I am quite positive women need to make sacrifices too in order to begin studying this lethal skill.

So isn't ironic and maybe contradictory that DFBB has a desire for "brother" Yang (dang! I can't remember his name)?