The Han people and other Chinese ethnic groups in wuxia

[chibidaisuke]

The Song was not known for their military might but wasn't it mainly because of its administration? Despite this, was the Song army when assembled still the world's most advanced army due to its arsenal of devastating weaponry such as gunpowder? Sorry I don't know much about history.

[Ken Cheng]

The Song was not known for their military might but wasn't it mainly because of its administration? Despite this, was the Song army when assembled still the world's most advanced army due to its arsenal of devastating weaponry such as gunpowder? Sorry I don't know much about history.

I think that because the Sung Dynasty followed a period of warlordism, the bias of the dynasty was towards civilian control of the military. As we saw in Ngok Fei's situation, his bane wasn't the enemy Jin army that he faced in battle, but a civil official (Chin Qui) of his own government.

The Sung had advanced military technology and, give them credit where credit was due, they held out against the Mongols much longer than any other civilization did during the 13th Century. The Mongols rolled over the Jin in just a little over a decade's time, but it took parts of five decades for the Mongols to subdue the Sung.

[chibidaisuke]

I think that because the Sung Dynasty followed a period of warlordism, the bias of the dynasty was towards civilian control of the military. As we saw in Ngok Fei's situation, his bane wasn't the enemy Jin army that he faced in battle, but a civil official (Chin Qui) of his own government.

The Sung had advanced military technology and, give them credit where credit was due, they held out against the Mongols much longer than any other civilization did during the 13th Century. The Mongols rolled over the Jin in just a little over a decade's time, but it took parts of five decades for the Mongols to subdue the Sung.

So in the numerous confrontations between the Song and the Jin armies. The Song army will be the one with the more advanced and devastating weaponry right? Interesting that the Song could not take advantage of their superior military technology over their enemies. (Unless the Jin also had gunpowder at their disposal)

[Ken Cheng]

So in the numerous confrontations between the Song and the Jin armies. The Song army will be the one with the more advanced and devastating weaponry right? Interesting that the Song could not take advantage of their superior military technology over their enemies. (Unless the Jin also had gunpowder at their disposal)

I think the Sung and the Jin both had equal military technology, as the Jin also occupied the Central Plains and had numerous ethnic Hans working for them as engineers and tacticians. Like the later Sung/Mongol War, the Sung/Jin War was a long, protracted war of attrition that went on for decades. The Jin, not being as strong or as determined as the Mongols would later prove to be, couldn't advance farther south than the Yangtze River, though. Southern China's geography greatly helped in slowing down northern invaders.

[Dirt]

Yue Fei's greatest opponent was the Emperor himself who did not want his brother to return and reclaim the throne.

[Trien Chieu]

Not to mention much better rulers. Qing Dynasty IMO is the 3rd best dynasty behind the Tang and Han. Qing had Huang Taji, Kangxi, Yongzheng, and Qianlong as decent rulers. Huang Taji died too early before he could take out his reforms. Kangxi was the one that stablized the country and eliminated the majority of the enemy. Yongzheng was the one that took out the corruptness of the government and made good reforms that strengthened the economy. Qianlong was the one that just took everything his ancestors gave him and rule the country. Qianlong also expanded the borders to its peak. However, Qianlong final 20 years of his 60 year reign was marked with corruptness returning most noticealby Heshen. And from that point on, the dynasty declined.

I strongly disagree with this. The Qing was a racist dynasty. Toward the end of the dynasty, they rather kow tow to the west than sharing power with the majority Han Chinese. No wonder the dynasty collapsed as it should.

[Trien Chieu]

Woah, so the Jins really made a come back after so many centuries

Yeah, it was a big come back for them but they did not last. I wonder the Mongol or Manchu will make a big come back again. Do you think either or both will ever make a big come back again?

[Ken Cheng]

Yeah, it was a big come back for them but they did not last. I wonder the Mongol or Manchu will make a big come back again. Do you think either or both will ever make a big come back again?

Probably not. The modernization of the world that began late in the 18th Century with the Industrial Revolution changed the centuries-old conditions that enabled (and gave cause to) the steppe peoples to periodically invade the territories of the sedentary agricultural civilizations. If modern civilization were to collapse entirely and humanity at large were to revert to pre-modern ways of living, then the old order might reassert itself. We'll have to wait and see what happens after World War III/climate change/great Yellowstone volcanic eruption.

[Ken Cheng]

The Song was not known for their military might but wasn't it mainly because of its administration? Despite this, was the Song army when assembled still the world's most advanced army due to its arsenal of devastating weaponry such as gunpowder? Sorry I don't know much about history.

One more thing about the Sung military: its ground forces (infantry and cavalry) were unimpressive for a nation of Sung's wealth, size, and cultural achievements, but its NAVY was one of the best in the world at the time, if not THE best. The Sung army had a mixed record in ground combat against the various invading armies, but the Sung navy usually kicked a$$ on the rivers and seas. The one place that the Khitans, Jurchens, and Mongols didn't want to fight the Sung was on the water, and destroying the Sung navy was critical to the Mongols' ultimate success in conquering the Sung.

[pannonian]

I strongly disagree with this. The Qing was a racist dynasty. Toward the end of the dynasty, they rather kow tow to the west than sharing power with the majority Han Chinese. No wonder the dynasty collapsed as it should.

I've seen evidence that at least some Chinese did as well under the Qings as under any native dynasty. If they didn't have access to the highest executive positions, well, you've complained elsewhere about Hong Kongers agitating for fuller democracy under the current Chinese regime. It seems to me that you're all for oppression, as long as it's done by Chinese, and hold pot and kettle opinions about racism.

[Trien Chieu]

I've seen evidence that at least some Chinese did as well under the Qings as under any native dynasty. If they didn't have access to the highest executive positions, well, you've complained elsewhere about Hong Kongers agitating for fuller democracy under the current Chinese regime. It seems to me that you're all for oppression, as long as it's done by Chinese, and hold pot and kettle opinions about racism.

I am against oppression. I just do not want to see the Hong Kongers get the same fate like the protesters of Tiananmen Square on 1989. Regarding the Qing Dynasty, it's a racist dynasty.

[pannonian]

I am against oppression. I just do not want to see the Hong Kongers get the same fate like the protesters of Tiananmen Square on 1989. Regarding the Qing Dynasty, it's a racist dynasty.

Your words were that "they should mind their own business". Scarce note there of any concern for their wellbeing, only that they were meddling in affairs not their own. As for Qing being racist, I've seen evidence, from decidedly Chinese sources, that at least some Chinese appreciated their Qing rulers. Also, on racism, look in a mirror.

[Trien Chieu]

Your words were that "they should mind their own business". Scarce note there of any concern for their wellbeing, only that they were meddling in affairs not their own.

Ok, I worded badly. However, I can see nothing good will come out of protest. Again, I do not want to see them get slaughter like the protesters in Tiananmen Square back then.

As for Qing being racist, I've seen evidence, from decidedly Chinese sources, that at least some Chinese appreciated their Qing rulers.

Can you show the Chinese sources? Regarding racism, was the law of the land at the time favour the Manchu over everyone else? If the answer is YES, then it's racism.

Also, on racism, look in a mirror.

Did you join the NAACP? Did you join the protest in Ferguson? I gotta admit that you are an excellent race card user.

[pannonian]

Ok, I worded badly. However, I can see nothing good will come out of protest. Again, I do not want to see them get slaughter like the protesters in Tiananmen Square back then.




Can you show the Chinese sources? Regarding racism, was the law of the land at the time favour the Manchu over everyone else? If the answer is YES, then it's racism.



Did you join the NAACP? Did you join the protest in Ferguson? I gotta admit that you are an excellent race card user.

I'll never join any such, as I don't live in the US. As for those sources, family records go back centuries. They did particularly well during Qian Long's reign, with temple records backed up by a plethora of memorials on the mountain dating from that period. As a comparison, they didn't do that badly under the Song either, but they prospered under the Qing.

[pannonian]

Ok, I worded badly. However, I can see nothing good will come out of protest. Again, I do not want to see them get slaughter like the protesters in Tiananmen Square back then.




Can you show the Chinese sources? Regarding racism, was the law of the land at the time favour the Manchu over everyone else? If the answer is YES, then it's racism.



Did you join the NAACP? Did you join the protest in Ferguson? I gotta admit that you are an excellent race card user.

Also, if you really are concerned about the Hong Kongers, and you really do abhor laws favouring one race over another, note that Guangdonghua, or Cantonese, is a sore point at the moment, as Beijing thinks the term promotes thoughts of independence. Hence anything Cantonese has to be referred to as "ben di" rather than Cantonese, Guangdong or any of the traditional names.