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Thread: Some comparison of FINGER techniques in the Jin Yong canon

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Default Some comparison of FINGER techniques in the Jin Yong canon

    LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, TIME FOR MORE controversy, brought to you by the one and only yours truly.

    According to Qiu Chuji, finger-writing on stone is out of the question for Wang Chongyang. Yideng might not be able to write on stone either (actually it says he might not be able to write on wood, so I'm being rather lenient).

    In DGSD, Jiumozhi's Duoluo Finger was described to be able to penetrate gold and stone: 穿金破石 was the exact expression used to describe this style.

    Is it a fair assumption that Yideng would not be able to penetrate stone if he can't write words on this kind of surface?

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by PJ; 08-08-06 at 04:10 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    So what if 1000 arrows are targetted at our wuxia hero? LHC's missile breaking stance can deflect thousands of projectiles in 1 stance and send them back to the enemy. The more arrows the better!

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    Did Jiumozhi's Duoluo Finger really pierce through gold or stone though? Those descriptions of the martial arts are just to make them sound impressive and not to be taken literally. For example, QQR's name is "iron palm, walk on water" but as impressive as his martial arts was, he obviously couldn't walk on water. Although, his brother did trick people into thinking that he could walk on water.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi
    Did Jiumozhi's Duoluo Finger really pierce through gold or stone though?
    No, I don't think he actually did it.

    Those descriptions of the martial arts are just to make them sound impressive and not to be taken literally.
    True that the descriptions are to make the martial arts sound impressive, and I don't mean to take them literally, just trying to analyze the possibilities.

    For example, QQR's name is "iron palm, walk on water" but as impressive as his martial arts was, he obviously couldn't walk on water. Although, his brother did trick people into thinking that he could walk on water.
    The difference is, Jin Yong actually described that Duoluo Finger can pierce through stone; the description is not merely a nickname.

    The exact text is: 这一招拳法粗浅之极,但附以小无相功后,竟将两下穿金破石的多罗指指力消于中途。
    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    So what if 1000 arrows are targetted at our wuxia hero? LHC's missile breaking stance can deflect thousands of projectiles in 1 stance and send them back to the enemy. The more arrows the better!

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    Well, this is JMZ we're talking about. Despite the current fashion of "ROCH > DGSD", JMZ is too cool to disregard.

    If JMZ can cut a perfectly palm shaped imprint out of a metal brazier with a palm blast, presumably he can put a hole in stone by jabbing his finger into it.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    If JMZ can cut a perfectly palm shaped imprint out of a metal brazier with a palm blast, presumably he can put a hole in stone by jabbing his finger into it.


    Nice Logic
    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    So what if 1000 arrows are targetted at our wuxia hero? LHC's missile breaking stance can deflect thousands of projectiles in 1 stance and send them back to the enemy. The more arrows the better!

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    Senior Member bloodstar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    Well, this is JMZ we're talking about. Despite the current fashion of "ROCH > DGSD", JMZ is too cool to disregard.
    ROCH>DGSD? gee... when did this start?

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    Senior Member AnhHung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodstar
    ROCH>DGSD? gee... when did this start?
    Is the trend going to be DGSD<LOCH<ROCH<HSDS?
    You do know that it is just fiction, dont you?

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ


    Nice Logic
    Were you being sarcastic? It does kinda make sense. If you can project your chi thru the air to do a clean slice (not some brute force punching a rough hole in the brazier), its not a stretch to project your chi into your fingertip.

    After all, this is JMZ. The MASTER of the Fist/Palm/Finger/Kick/Armlock/ToeStomp/Claw/Hair Pulling etc etc....

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    Woa...how come I missed the part of him being a master of hair pulling, toestomping...Oh dear, have to revert to reading the book again.
    Member of HYS fanclub -> click here to join group.

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    Well, Yideng's limit is "carving" in unknown because CCQ didn't know how much Yideng improved.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出一阳指功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的一阳指功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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    Senior Member Ardor's Avatar
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    They can definitely penetrate stone with their finger, it is just writing that is out of the question.
    Burying his Dugu 9 Jian manual under an epitaph, Dugu Qiubai felt he has left his legacy for the next generation. He then moved to Shaolin to study Buddhism, sweep floors and tap elite fighters.

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Indeed, writing on wood/stone is a whole different order of difficulty compared to punching a hole.

    I mean, even MCF, who's nowhere near even a LOCH Great, could punch her fingers through skulls, much less wood.

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    You know if it had crossed his mind, Xiao Yuanshan might've inscribed his Khitan writings on the precipice with his fingers if he had that ability. But he chose to perform the task with a dagger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    According to Qiu Chuji, finger-writing on stone is out of the question for Wang Chongyang. Yideng might not be able to write on stone either (actually it says he might not be able to write on wood, so I'm being rather lenient).

    In DGSD, Jiumozhi's Duoluo Finger was described to be able to penetrate gold and stone: 穿金破石 was the exact expression used to describe this style.

    Is it a fair assumption that Yideng would not be able to penetrate stone if he can't write words on this kind of surface?

    Thoughts?
    I don't think there's a lot of controversy here simply because the Duan familys Solitary Yang Finger always seemed like a soft and mainly internal skill to me, so it's not particulary suprising that it's external power cannot compare to some hard finger techniques.

    What does suprise me is that I'm seeing sarcasm (?) about JMZs abilitys, I too think that his ability to cut a palm shaped imprint out of a metal brazier was truly impressive and something I have seen none of the trilogy greats or DGSD sworn brothers do, as well as a lot more difficult than simply making a hole into a stone with a hard finger skill.
    Also I bet there are toestomping and hairpulling skills in Shaolins 72 supreme arts (Damo Demon Subduing Toe Crushing Skill? Divine Arhat Mystical Hair Pulling Fingers?) and JMZ knows them all so you guys shouldn't be suprised about that!

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    The 72 arts might be a bit lofty to have such skills. But perhaps the Persians have a Tou Fa Da Nuo Yi. Or there may be the secret Shaolin art "Hair Shifting Sutra".

    I was a bit unsure whether or not the implication was that the logic was faulty. I did leave out the connecting links, but it makes sense to me. Projecting chi into your finger is easier than projecting it across a great distance of air. Making a hole is easier than slicing (e.g. slicing a piece of metal in half, as opposed to drilling a hole in it). Stone is weaker than metal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterM
    I don't think there's a lot of controversy here simply because the Duan familys Solitary Yang Finger always seemed like a soft and mainly internal skill to me, so it's not particulary suprising that it's external power cannot compare to some hard finger techniques.

    What does suprise me is that I'm seeing sarcasm (?) about JMZs abilitys, I too think that his ability to cut a palm shaped imprint out of a metal brazier was truly impressive and something I have seen none of the trilogy greats or DGSD sworn brothers do, as well as a lot more difficult than simply making a hole into a stone with a hard finger skill.
    眼见鸠摩智使出大金刚拳拳法、般若掌掌法、摩诃指指法,招数是对是错,他没有学过这几门功夫,自是无法知晓 ,但运用这拳法、掌法、指法的内功,他却瞧得清清楚楚,那显然是小无相功。

    他听鸠摩智自称精通本派七十二门绝技,然而施展之时,明明不过是以一门小无相功,使动般若掌、摩诃指、大金 刚拳等招数,只因小无相功威力强劲,一使出便镇慑当场,在不会这门内功之人眼中,便以为他真的精通少林派各 门绝技。

    JMZ depended entirely on the power of Xiao Yao Sect's xiao wu xiang gong to punch through the metal.... there was no indication that in terms of technique and power the shaolin 摩诃指 was superior to the Yi Yang Finger.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    Were you being sarcastic? It does kinda make sense. If you can project your chi thru the air to do a clean slice (not some brute force punching a rough hole in the brazier), its not a stretch to project your chi into your fingertip.
    I thought that in order to slice a piece of bronze, he simply need to send out a very sharply powerful palm blast in the shape of a palm, albeit with superb control.

    By "penetrating stone," I imagined something along the line of blasting a hole on one side of a 1+ meter thick hole, and the hole would be there on the other side too (sorry for the crude description); but maybe that was too much expectation (since Jin Yong didn't mention how thick the stone would be).
    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    So what if 1000 arrows are targetted at our wuxia hero? LHC's missile breaking stance can deflect thousands of projectiles in 1 stance and send them back to the enemy. The more arrows the better!

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    Senior Member JigSta's Avatar
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    Can "penetrating" something be classed the same as "finger writing". I mean writing on stone is not merely poking holes through it. You would need to be "cutting through it like butter" to make all the strokes with your finger. I suppose you could repeatedly punch holes, but that's not really "writing".
    Last edited by JigSta; 08-09-06 at 09:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    I thought that in order to slice a piece of bronze, he simply need to send out a very sharply powerful palm blast in the shape of a palm, albeit with superb control.

    By "penetrating stone," I imagined something along the line of blasting a hole on one side of a 1+ meter thick hole, and the hole would be there on the other side too (sorry for the crude description); but maybe that was too much expectation (since Jin Yong didn't mention how thick the stone would be).
    I think punching thru 1m of rock is asking too much of any JY fighter.

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    Well, the five QZ Masters using the Seven Star Assembly were able to blow apart a boulder. The effect was described to be almost like gunpowder.

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