Should CHENG KUN join the "crap fighter" category?

[PJ]

We usually regard Golden Wheel Monk and Zhang Wuji as high in martial arts but weak in fighting. Do you think that Cheng Kun from HSDS may deserve the honor to join the club? Consider the results of a few of his fights.

-in Ming Cult, he ambushed Yang Xiao, Wei Yixiao, and a few other Ming Cult members. He let off his guard and was injured by a greatly weakened Wei Yixiao.

-when fighting against Beggar Sect Leader Shi Huolong, who only mastered 12 of the 18 Dragon Palms due to insufficient kung fu talent, he was injured and vomitted some blood.

-when fighting against his student Xie Xun, he was not able to subdue Xie within 200 stances. Now, Xie Xun is probably on par with Yin Tianzheng, Yang Xiao, Wei Yixiao. 2 of those guys proved to be at best a tie with one of the Du generation monks. 1 of those guys should be no match for Du x. Cheng Kun was described to possess similar martial arts level as Du x. And yet, his combat performance seems weaker.

Overall, it seems that Cheng Kun is always performing less than optimum for his kung fu level.

[Wu Wudi]

We usually regard Golden Wheel Monk and Zhang Wuji as high in martial arts but weak in fighting. Do you think that Cheng Kun from HSDS may deserve the honor to join the club? Consider the results of a few of his fights.

-in Ming Cult, he ambushed Yang Xiao, Wei Yixiao, and a few other Ming Cult members. He let off his guard and was injured by a greatly weakened Wei Yixiao.

-when fighting against Beggar Sect Leader Shi Huolong, who only mastered 12 of the 18 Dragon Palms due to insufficient kung fu talent, he was injured and vomitted some blood.

-when fighting against his student Xie Xun, he was not able to subdue Xie within 200 stances. Now, Xie Xun is probably on par with Yin Tianzheng, Yang Xiao, Wei Yixiao. 2 of those guys proved to be at best a tie with one of the Du generation monks. 1 of those guys should be no match for Du x. Cheng Kun was described to possess similar martial arts level as Du x. And yet, his combat performance seems weaker.

Overall, it seems that Cheng Kun is always performing less than optimum for his kung fu level.

The difference between Chen Kun and GWM is that Chen Kun is not hyped up to be equivalent to the other elites fighters of his generation such as Z3F, ZWJ, and several Shaolin monks. I think Chen Kun, while a highly skilled martial artist, was supposed to be dangerous because of his evil cunning and the events in the book reflected that.

In your 1st example, Chen Kun would have gotten his butt kicked by those guys in a fair fight and it was a great achievement that he almost suceeded in killing them all if not for the fluke event that made ZWJ much more powerful. Even then, those guys were way too weak to defend the Ming sect against the Six Big sects.

Your 2nd example was a disgraceful event for CK, similar to the things that rountinely happened to GWM and there's not much excuse for what happened.

For the last example, I don't think you can blame what happened against Xie Xun as incompetance on CK's part. Although CK was the master, Xie Xun was always given a fair chance for revenge which is also why ZWJ didn't step in. CK was older than XX and XX had also picked up some new skills. Also, it would have been completely anti-climatic if CK had defeated Xie Xun. Xie Xun was a great character and it was his last moment to shine. I don't blame GWM for losing his last fight against YG either, because it was his time to lose. It's all the other things that happened to GWM before that made him a crap fighter and crap villain.

Even with all his failures, CK managed to almost destroy the Ming sect, take control of the begger clan and Shaolin, which are far greater accomplishments than anything that loser GWM did. Although I know you're comparing just fighting ability, I just want to comment that CK worked as a real threat why GWM completely failed as one. I guess what I'm trying to say is that CK did not really suffer from being a "crap figher" while GWM did.

[PJ]

The more I read about Cheng Kun, the more useless his martial arts seem to be.

The guy can't even comfortably kill 2 Kunlun experts (not He Taichong)!

和他对敌的那两个壮汉都是昆仑派中的健者，圆真以武功论原是不输，但难以一举格杀二人，最多伤得一人，余下 一人不免会脱身逃走

[CFT]

I think your estimation of CK is too high, but then it does also highlight an inconsistency when you compare him to XX.

IMO, CK is not at the same level as the Du generation of monks. He is at least one level lower.

[PJ]

IMO, CK is not at the same level as the Du generation of monks. He is at least one level lower.

Definitely.

[Ken Cheng]

I think your estimation of CK is too high

IMO, CK is not at the same level as the Du generation of monks. He is at least one level lower.

Definitely.

It seems to me that there are too many different levels of martial arts in HSDS.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Battle with Shi Huolong: Very possibly, it was simply a matter of Cheng Kun not knowing the power and ferocity of the Dragon Palms (and being overconfident, since he was fighting a cripple). I think it is most likely that he tried to take on one of Shi Huolong's palms directly, and that was a bad idea (very few people can take on that palm set directly). He had, after all, an inferior set of martial arts compared to Dragon Palms. In short, overconfidence and underestimation of one's opponent.

Fight with Xie Xun: The Du generation monks had disparity in the level of their martial arts as well; possibly, Cheng Kun was close to the level of Du Jie, but not Du Nan or Du E. I actually think Yang Xiao, by himself, could go quite some time with Du Jie, so long as he fought the way he did with Du Nan; ie, not competing power or strength, but relying on ever-changing, miraculous stances.

Also, at that time, Cheng Kun had pretty much been exposed and all his plots had been ruined; this had to have greatly affected his mindset, and Jinyong often talks about how when elite fighters compete, if one's mindset is disturbed, they will suffer great disadvantages.

Lastly, if I recall correctly, weren't they fighting in the darkness? Xie Xun had been blind for years and was used to it, but Cheng Kun wasn't.

[PJ]

Jin Yong also wrote that Cheng Kun's yin finger skill has about the same strength as Wei Yixiao's yin finger skill.

Overall, I think Cheng Kun is probably around Ah San's level: slightly above Yang Xiao etc, but below the Du generation monks.

[ChanceEncounter]

Yang Xiao and Yin Tianzheng were each facing one of the Du generation monk for a considerable amount of time, and only after they began to tire did they have to team up on 1 monk; and even in this case, the Du generation monks did not land a clean blow on them.

Also, considering that Du Jie was significantly weaker than Du E, and I think it's safe to say that Du Jie was probably only a level or two at most above Yang Xiao, which would make the comparison between the Du generation monks and Cheng Kun more fair.

[jsamador]

His yi yin zhi was powerful enough that it needed yi yang zhi or 9 yang skills to reverse its effects. I think Cheng Kun was powerful enough as a MA but he was more effective a villain because of his cunning and deceitfulness.

[PJ]

Yang Xiao and Yin Tianzheng were each facing one of the Du generation monk for a considerable amount of time, and only after they began to tire did they have to team up on 1 monk; and even in this case, the Du generation monks did not land a clean blow on them.

The 3 monks were still fighting as a unit; thus they could aid each other; most likely the ones Yang and Yin fought lent a big hand to the one Zhang was fighting. Otherwise, don't you think Zhang Wuji would have taken out the "one" he was fighting fairly quickly?

[ChanceEncounter]

The 3 monks were still fighting as a unit; thus they could aid each other; most likely the ones Yang and Yin fought lent a big hand to the one Zhang was fighting. Otherwise, don't you think Zhang Wuji would have taken out the "one" he was fighting fairly quickly?

The three of them fight as a unit as a whole. They are able to distribute their entire abilities almost as if they were one. So you shouldn't look at is as Zhang vs 1, Yang Xiao vs 1, and Yin Tianzheng vs 1, but rather as the 3 of the Ming Cultists vs. the three Du Generation monks.

Either way, Du E is the strongest of the three, and Zhang Wuji was not able to overpower him after a significant number of stances. This seems to indicate that while Zhang Wuji is clearly stronger than the Du generation monks, the cumulative difference is not extremely vast. In other words, Zhang Wuji is in shouting distance of the Du generation monks, and the Du generation monks are in shouting distance of Yang and Yin.

[PJ]

So you shouldn't look at is as Zhang vs 1, Yang Xiao vs 1, and Yin Tianzheng vs 1, but rather as the 3 of the Ming Cultists vs. the three Du Generation monks.

That's what I believe. And yet, you also claim that:

Du E... Zhang Wuji was not able to overpower him after a significant number of stances.

I find those 2 statements contradictory. If they're fighting as a unit then we can't say that Zhang Wuji was only fighting Du'e.

[ChanceEncounter]

Yes, they fight as a unit, but each individual opponent was aiming at a specific point within that web. It's like attacking a net. While you attack, the rest of the net provides tension to any point that you hit, but you hit the same spot repeatedly, and it will break

[PJ]

In our situation, since Zhang Wuji can tie more than the combined forces of all 3 monks (the formation > sum of 3 monks), it follows that he should be able to own any one of them easily. And yet, in that fight, he was aiming at Du'e alone for quite a while, but he failed to take him out. I find this to be the same reason that Dujie couldn't take out Yang Xiao quickly. One on one, I believe Dujie would kick Yang Xiao's a$$ easily, but when they're fighting "1:1" in a formation (which is not so "1:1" any more), the focus is much more on the unit, and each side has to distribute the power optimally.

[AnhHung]

Chen Kun's yin finger was gone after he met ZWJ's 9 yang. So perhaps all the hype about his abillities was before he lost his most powerfull skill? And that + figthing in the dark could explained how he ~ XX?

[Exodus]

could CK hurt great level fighters with his WYZ?

[flamer]

I think "fighting in the dark" was the handicap so to justify XX beating Cheng Kun.

[flamer]

could CK hurt great level fighters with his WYZ?

No man... ZWJ pwned him.

[Exodus]

No man... ZWJ pwned him.

i was thinking more like an ambush a great level fighter with his WYZ