The Wooden Sword and the Iron Sword

[JigSta]

When did this happen? ROCH or LOCH?

GJ refined the palms by using 9 yin. It's mentioned in ROCH.

[MysteriouX]

In real life, in Zen Archery (Kyudo), they talk about how to release the arrow from the bow.

The person who releases the arrow must have no forethought about how he or she will use the bow and arrow. The attack must come forth spontaneously, like the drop of rain from the sky spontaneously falling upon something on the earth, the attack must come forth from an 'empty' or 'clear' mind.

Formlessness isn't in the style used, it lies in the state of mind of the person, which ever style he or she may use.

[Wu Wudi]

right, array it is...
on one end of the spectrum, you've got LCY's swordplay where she'd trying to be all romantic and looking pretty
and one the other hand you have dugu's theories...which is cut the looks and get to the core. (dugu 9 sword included...LHC's strategy supposedly resembled "street bum fights" sometimes ).

Well, we don't really know how Dugu fights. It's possible that each of his moves is both pretty and effective. I wasn't really arguing that elegance is more effective than simple unaesthetic moves. It's just that I believe the true sword masters are too arrogant to use moves that are ugly.

[MysteriouX]

It seems more to me that the more skillful a swordsman is, the less stylish move he or she uses. They seem to more and more prefer simple moves that are extremely effective at defeating/killing the opponent.

"If its not a move that kills in 1 blow, its not a killing move."

[Wu Wudi]

It seems more to me that the more skillful a swordsman is, the less stylish move he or she uses. They seem to more and more prefer simple moves that are extremely effective at defeating/killing the opponent.

"If its not a move that kills in 1 blow, its not a killing move."

That's not how all great swordsmen generally described to be though, except for YG and LHC's case. Everyone has been so influenced by DGQB's examples that they think all great swordsmen fight like that. Most great swordsmen in GL's world are describe with using impressive looking moves and even some great swordsmen in JY's world have pretty fighting styles. Besides, I'm not saying that great swordsmen try to show off, it's just that elegant looknig moves are a result of their high swordsmanship. Also, even if great swordsmen just care about effectiveness, I don't think you can described them to be "simple" moves. If they're simple moves, then why is a high level of skill required to do them? For example, what if the most effecitve way to beat DFBB is to spin through the air and then attack from an almost impossible angle? The most effective move would also be the most impressive looking move.

[MysteriouX]

Sorry I misled people here, when I meant simple moves, what I meant to say is they try to minimize the effort and energy exerted. They try to minimize their moves as best as possible. Someone like YGC or XCX.

people like LHC when they use DG9J, they only seem to be showing off because the brilliance of their moves puts the opponent in danger of dying. They find solutions which other normal swordsman would not dare risk.

In several of his battles, LHC just makes a thrust or slash, but its made in a way that takes advantages of the opponent's weakness. Thats what I was trying to mean when I said simple, simple and elegant. Nothing flashy.

In the manor where Ren Woxing was held captive, there was this swordsman who used sword moves which were designed to distract the opponent with flashes, but he lost to someone who was blind.

[Wu Wudi]

Sorry I misled people here, when I meant simple moves, what I meant to say is they try to minimize the effort and energy exerted. They try to minimize their moves as best as possible. Someone like YGC or XCX.

people like LHC when they use DG9J, they only seem to be showing off because the brilliance of their moves puts the opponent in danger of dying. They find solutions which other normal swordsman would not dare risk.

In several of his battles, LHC just makes a thrust or slash, but its made in a way that takes advantages of the opponent's weakness. Thats what I was trying to mean when I said simple, simple and elegant. Nothing flashy.

In the manor where Ren Woxing was held captive, there was this swordsman who used sword moves which were designed to distract the opponent with flashes, but he lost to someone who was blind.

Those are good examples but who's to say that DG's philosophies are true for all of swordsmanship? There are several moves in GL that are pleasing to the eyes and more devastating than DG's moves in JY. Also, the Tai Chi style at the highest level is not said to be inferior to DG's style and supposedly the Tai Chi style is very elegant. Plus, keep in mind, that we've never seen DG fight so it's possible that he fights more elegantly than YG and LHC simply because he's a much better swordsman.

[Yeade]

I really don't know anything about swordsmanship, but I figured I'd offer my thoughts on the topic in the hope that wiser and more knowledgable forum members could instruct me.

[In Zen archery:] The person who releases the arrow must have no forethought about how he or she will use the bow and arrow. The attack must come forth spontaneously, like the drop of rain from the sky spontaneously falling upon something on the earth, the attack must come forth from an 'empty' or 'clear' mind.

I rather agree with MysteriouX: Formlessness is ultimately a state of mind. Why would it matter what style you used? Or if you used many styles? Or no style at all? Similarily, why would it matter what weapon you used?

My admittedly shallow understanding of formlessness is that, once achieved, your mind is stripped of all rules and preconceptions, and this allows your previously learned skills to flow naturally from your heart or, if you prefer, your subconscious or intuition, merging and evolving endlessly.

So, I don't really understand how a swordsman who's reached the formless state could be exclusively described as simple or elegant or forceful or, well, anything, with a few possible exceptions: brilliant, effective, integrated, sensitive, and synonyms. Wouldn't the nature of formless swordsmanship constantly be changing in response to external and internal stimuli? The point being not to worry or even think about how this or that move would look or work but allow your body to move and respond whichever way feels right.

Which, in turn, is why the swordsman must be so highly skilled and well versed in a variety of martial arts before attaining formlessness. The deeper his comprehension, the broader his knowledge, the better. Training toward formlessness, I think, is the process of transforming your acquired or learned martial arts abilities into a natural extension and expression of your self that's as easy and automatic as breathing. Of course, it'd be good to have lots of ability and talent to transform!

[K2Grey]

The nature of formless swordsmanship is to throw away the sword and use psionics :P

[Yeade]

Funny you should mention psionics, K2Grey. I was about to suggest that a swordsman aspiring to be formless make like a Jedi blocking blaster bolts and let the Force... that is, intuition and sense memory guide his hand.

[CC]

The nature of formless swordsmanship is to throw away the sword and use psionics :P

You mean like in those movies where you wave your arms and billions of spiritual swords assail your opponent from all angles?

[K2Grey]

Well, I was referring more to the stereotypical "two old masters fight" deal where they stare at each other and after a while one person "wins".

[Pacifian]

GJ refined the palms by using 9 yin. It's mentioned in ROCH.

When I saw the word 'refined', I thought it was merely beautifying the skill. The part about 9 Yin effects on XL18Z are more than ordinary refinement.

PJ's quote appeared to be more of exterior refinement, where XL18Z just looked more elegant, as he/she is attacking another person's quote on elegance. Surely this XL18Z refinement we are talking about is MUCH MUCH more than refining its elegance.

[MysteriouX]

The nature of formless swordsmanship is to throw away the sword and use psionics :P

Hey in the Marvel Universe, Jean Grey with her psionic powers is an Omega Level mutant.