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Thread: Do you think modifying XL18Z in TLBB from 18 to 28 palms serves a useful purpose?

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    Junior Member Doughboy's Avatar
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    Default Do you think modifying XL18Z in TLBB from 18 to 28 palms serves a useful purpose?

    In JY's third revision of TLBB, XL18Z has been increased to 28 palms. Then, Xiao Feng and Xu Zhu shrank the form to 18 palms, keeping only the essence and removing repetitions. Do you think JY's modification of XL18Z in TLBB from 18 to 28 palms serves a useful purpose? What is JY trying to tell his readers through this change?

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    I think JY was trying to do 2 things.

    1. Solve the previously unresolved question of how the Dragon Palms were transmitted onwards after XF's sudden death. The question is now answered by having XZ act as the transmitter.

    2. This is only my speculation, and its based mainly on the way JY answered that interview question on 'whose palms were stronger'. His answer to that interview seemed to indicate that he wanted something to be lost during the transmission process from XZ. Not that he wanted XZ to be incompetant, but that XF only discussed the brief theories with him and did not give him the full lessons.

    I say this because JY answered the question by saying that XF's palms were stronger _because_ the H7G/GJ version was transmitted through XZ. So it was due to the situation surrounding the transmission process that caused something to be lost.

    p.s. Still, JY could have done all that even if it was XL18Z to XL18Z. The 28 is not really necessary IMHO. You can still water it down even if its from 18 to 18.
    Last edited by CC; 08-15-06 at 03:47 AM.

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    I believe though that in the interview where JY was asked which of XF, H7G, GJ had the best XLx8Z, JY said that XF had the best XL18Z because the one that H7G got was passed down from the disciple of the Beggar Clan Leader who got XL18Z from XZ.

    I always felt that sorta implied it was the nameless disciple's fault.

    Then again, I don't remember the interview exactly. But the general gist does seem to be that at some point stuff was lost.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    I thought the lost 10 palms weren't missed; they were supposedly redundant and Kiu Fung and Hui Juk consolidated the 28 into 18 to make the palms more efficient overall. It's like companies getting stronger through downsizing (or something like that).

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    I think its more energy friendly but in turns of power, the redundant steps should still add a bit more impact to the overall effect I believe.

    I believe xf said something like"to those who know about XL18Z, they would know that the last 10 steps are the same as the first 18." but just how many people really know how xl18z is performed besides the experts?
    Still searching for my GuGu

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    Sometimes I think XF/XZ screwed XL28Z. What maybe be obvious to them might not so for others.

    In DGDS it was XL28/18Z >>> 1YG and by LOCH/ROCH it was ~=. Zure there are a zillion reasons but still it stick out.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wishiknew
    Sometimes I think XF/XZ screwed XL28Z. What maybe be obvious to them might not so for others.

    In DGDS it was XL28/18Z >>> 1YG and by LOCH/ROCH it was ~=. Zure there are a zillion reasons but still it stick out.
    I think that's simply an effect of Kiu Fung being a better fighter than DGSD-era 1 Yeung Finger practitioners Deun Yin Hing, Deun Jing Ming, and Deun Jing Tsun, not Hong Lung 28 Palms being an innately better martial art than 1 Yeung Finger.

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    Well IIRC the last 10 palms were tricky in various ways but not as powerful. So there were basically two sets of palms: one with 18 in them, and one with 10 in them. Xiao Feng could mix and match between them very well because he was Xiao Feng and was very good at that sort of thing. Now, Xiao Feng might have thought that the last 10 palms could be combined into the previous 18 and then with this new XL18Z any situation which called for the use of palms 19-28 could be handled by selecting and using appropriately a palm from N1-N18. Of course it's important for the practitioner to know about this and act accordingly.

    And then what do you get in Condor Trilogy? A Guo Jing who uses palm #1, then palm #2, then palm #3, and goes up to palm #18 and then gets hit because he can't decide whether to go back down from #17 downwards or start over again from Kang Long You Hui. ARGGH ITS NOT MEANT TO BE USED THAT WAY N00B

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    Quote Originally Posted by R!chard
    I think its more energy friendly but in turns of power, the redundant steps should still add a bit more impact to the overall effect I believe.

    I believe xf said something like"to those who know about XL18Z, they would know that the last 10 steps are the same as the first 18." but just how many people really know how xl18z is performed besides the experts?
    No, the redundant didn't add much overall impact. XF said to XZ after XZ learned 18 palms that he felt palms 19-28 were redudant and not anywhere as powerful as the first 18. K2Grey is right. 19-28 is more trickery type instead of power type. And I don't think it's energy friendly.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    And then what do you get in Condor Trilogy? A Guo Jing who uses palm #1, then palm #2, then palm #3, and goes up to palm #18 and then gets hit because he can't decide whether to go back down from #17 downwards or start over again from Kang Long You Hui. ARGGH ITS NOT MEANT TO BE USED THAT WAY N00B
    Well, give the kid a break, he is noob. I think GJ figured out his problem by the time of ROCH and even possibly at the end of LOCH.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    I think that's simply an effect of Kiu Fung being a better fighter than DGSD-era 1 Yeung Finger practitioners Deun Yin Hing, Deun Jing Ming, and Deun Jing Tsun, not Hong Lung 28 Palms being an innately better martial art than 1 Yeung Finger.
    It's also that Yideng's proficeincy and mastery of Solitary Yang Finger surpasses any one in DGSD. The description of Yideng's finger energy was far better. Even the LOCH Yideng wasn't neccesary under the best Solitary Yang Finger users in DGSD such as Duan Zhenming.
    Last edited by Whsie; 08-15-06 at 09:48 PM.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    2. This is only my speculation, and its based mainly on the way JY answered that interview question on 'whose palms were stronger'. His answer to that interview seemed to indicate that he wanted something to be lost during the transmission process from XZ. Not that he wanted XZ to be incompetant, but that XF only discussed the brief theories with him and did not give him the full lessons.

    I say this because JY answered the question by saying that XF's palms were stronger _because_ the H7G/GJ version was transmitted through XZ. So it was due to the situation surrounding the transmission process that caused something to be lost.
    1. I don't agree with your second opinion. If the palm really got weakened just because it was transmitted, then that should mean the 1st Beggar Leader has a XL28Z>>>XF. And it would also mean that Wangjiantong would have a XL28Z>XF which I don't think is the case.

    And even though it was transmitted through XZ, XF made sure XZ understood XL18Z. Furthermore, XZ helped XF made the improvement from XL28Z to XL18Z. To help make an improvement from an old piece, I'm pretty sure you have to at least fully understand the old piece before you can make an improvement in whatever area.

    As for someone blaming the anoymous Beggar Leader, I don't think it's him. The Beggar Sect elders made sure that they had a talent before sending him to find XZ. And then XZ personally tested to see if the person was talented and strong enough to deserve to be the Beggar Sect Leader. In other words, this anoynmous leader was tested twice before he was taught the lessons, so I think XL18Z didn't deteriote much if at all to the anoymous Beggar Leader.

    If you ask my opinion on why XF's is stronger, then I think it's because of XF himself. In terms of refinement and useage, I'm more toward GJ's 9 Yin theory modified XL18Z, but XF's isn't below because he HIMSELF can make get more out of XL28Z then it usually can.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    1. I don't agree with your second opinion. If the palm really got weakened just because it was transmitted, then that should mean the 1st Beggar Leader has a XL28Z>>>XF. And it would also mean that Wangjiantong would have a XL28Z>XF which I don't think is the case.
    .
    Thats not my opinion, thats your interpretation of my words!

    IMHO, it got weakened because XF did not have time to teach XZ the entire load. WJT had time to teach XF everything.

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    IMHO, Martial arts is always about the person, the form or techinque is dead, the person is alive. I think we have to consider XF as person too, he was all about the power, he didn't use much or any tricks on his fights. he was the smash your head in type of guy. so n19-n28 may be complex or use trickery to confuse the opponent, and he didn't think it would be useful at all. therefore he and XZ took them out. i think maybe in the hands of another, 19-28 may proof useful, someone with the mind of YG or HY may be able to take 19-28 to another level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frymantis
    IMHO, Martial arts is always about the person, the form or techinque is dead, the person is alive. I think we have to consider XF as person too, he was all about the power, he didn't use much or any tricks on his fights. he was the smash your head in type of guy. so n19-n28 may be complex or use trickery to confuse the opponent, and he didn't think it would be useful at all. therefore he and XZ took them out. i think maybe in the hands of another, 19-28 may proof useful, someone with the mind of YG or HY may be able to take 19-28 to another level.
    Here we go again. XF is a talented fighter, he is not about pure brute force. You see him smashing people directly because _he can_.

    Why bother feinting with a claw to the shoulder, switching to a punch to the nose halfway then yelling 'hey your mom just came, look behind!' before kicking the opponent in the nuts if you can settle it straight with a palm to the face without a feint?

    When he was facing YTZ, he switched to feints when the quick direct method did not work.

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    XF is a martial arts genius and definitely shows that he has great sophistication in his techniques. I'm not sure why people assume that because XF has great power as well, he automatically has poor technique. While I think that GJ has better technique than XF, that's really setting the bar extremely high (not many people would have better technique than GJ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    Here we go again. XF is a talented fighter, he is not about pure brute force. You see him smashing people directly because _he can_.

    Why bother feinting with a claw to the shoulder, switching to a punch to the nose halfway then yelling 'hey your mom just came, look behind!' before kicking the opponent in the nuts if you can settle it straight with a palm to the face without a feint?

    When he was facing YTZ, he switched to feints when the quick direct method did not work.
    XF was also ingenious when he took on MRF,YTZ, and DCQ by combining power from an enemy, faking out another enemy before attacking the last one.

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    I know he is a genius and a very talented fighter, but it's because he can run over poeple that he does not really need to feint, trick, and etc, 99% of the time, he can just be very direct, so the last 10 techinque are very useless to him.

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    Not needing to use the last 10 techniques is not the same as the last 10 techniques being useless to him or him thinking the last 10 techniques are useless.

    Xiao Feng 99% of the time doesn't need to use more than 50% of his inner power to run over people. Does that mean the remaining 50% of inner power is useless to him?

    Furthurmore Xu Zhu also assisted Xiao Feng in modifying the palms and Xu Zhu knows Tianshan 6 Yang Zhang and other super complex exquisite techniques that make Dog Beating Stick look simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC

    IMHO, it got weakened because XF did not have time to teach XZ the entire load. WJT had time to teach XF everything.
    That is also a main flaw that I saw. How can XZ help XF modify XL28Z into the new and improved XL18Z if XZ first didn't master the set? You have to first have an understanding of the old set before you can improve it into a new and better set. That is why I think XZ did learn the whole thing. And it was not like, "You have to learn each stance in 30 minutes because I don't have time!". 3rd edition says XZ successfully learned the 18th palm by the end of the 1st day of non stop teaching. And THEN they did the modification TOGETHER to improve XL18Z.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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