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Thread: Fighting as a group

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    Senior Member Zhuge Liang's Avatar
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    Default Fighting as a group

    Two groups i recall who insisted on fighting as a group regardless of the number of opponents they faced were the 3 Dao Elder Monks in HSDS and the 7 Jiangnan Freaks of LOCH.

    Their argument was that they would fight as a team regardless of whether they outnumbered their opponents or if they were outnumbered.

    Was this fair? It seems rather unfair for opponents who are alone like ZWJ was some of the time when he faced the monks or when the 7 Freaks faced Mei ChaoFeng. It is very well for them to disadvantage themselves by facing enemies who are numerically superior but it seems that outnumbered opponents have this disadvantage forced upon them.
    TristeCoeur on Lady Yang: Someone needs 2 tell her that when u want 2 save people from being killed, u need to hurry the hell up, not play bull#### music & dance around. Her mission failed big time

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    The Freaks had to gang up on Mui Chiu Fung, Yau Chui Gei, etc., because those opponents' martial arts were far superior to those of the Freaks. The Freaks didn't fight too many people whose martial arts level was below theirs during LOCH, but if they did, I doubt they'd need to gang up on weaker opponents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    The Freaks didn't fight too many people whose martial arts level was below theirs during LOCH, but if they did, I doubt they'd need to gang up on weaker opponents.
    That's right. In Chapter 6, the Freaks came across Sha Tongtian's four Yellow River Devils on a hill in Mongolia; they'd somehow been hired as elite mercenaries (!) by the Jin. One of them had the nerve to mutter something mildly disrespectful about Ke Zhen'e, who in a flash leapt over by himself and threw all four of them off the hill with humiliating ease. It was a cool moment.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    The Freaks didn't fight too many people whose martial arts level was below theirs during LOCH, but if they did, I doubt they'd need to gang up on weaker opponents.
    There weren't many people with martial arts below them in the first place!

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    There weren't many people with martial arts below them in the first place!
    Not necessarily; they were just unheard of.

    The Freaks' problem is that their enemies during LOCH tended to be the top 1% of wulin (Mui Chiu Fung, Yau Chui Gei, East Heretic Wong Yerk See, West Poison Au Yeung Fung). Compared to most of wulin during their time, they weren't half bad. In the background story of the Freaks, it was said that the seven of them once defeated a group of one hundred enemies. Any seven people who could beat up any one hundred people is a force to be reckoned with, even if they can't compare to wulin's creme de la creme.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by owbjhx
    That's right. In Chapter 6, the Freaks came across Sha Tongtian's four Yellow River Devils on a hill in Mongolia; they'd somehow been hired as elite mercenaries (!) by the Jin. One of them had the nerve to mutter something mildly disrespectful about Ke Zhen'e, who in a flash leapt over by himself and threw all four of them off the hill with humiliating ease. It was a cool moment.
    The Jin set their standards pretty low during those days. They upgraded quickly, however. Within two years, they'd have West Poison Au Yeung Fung and Kau Cheen Yan on their payroll.

    That scene of Ohr Jen Ngok thrashing the Yellow River Ghosts shows that however inadequate the Freaks might have been against the likes of Mui Chiu Fung or the Greats, they were nevertheless quite formidable overall in wulin.

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    Default In Praise of the Freaks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    The Jin set their standards pretty low during those days. They upgraded quickly, however. Within two years, they'd have West Poison Au Yeung Fung and Kau Cheen Yan on their payroll.

    That scene of Ohr Jen Ngok thrashing the Yellow River Ghosts shows that however inadequate the Freaks might have been against the likes of Mui Chiu Fung or the Greats, they were nevertheless quite formidable overall in wulin.
    If the Freaks were a sports team, they'd probably be provincial champions, but in the national competition they might finish the season in the lower half of the league table.

    I'm a big fan of the Freaks. It's difficult to think of another substory in the Trilogy which is as noble and moving: the local heroes who got caught up in something they probably weren't quite ready for. (Miles better than all that overblown Yideng tedium.) Perhaps they weren't the best of teachers, but they arguably have a cleaner heroic record than any other wulin outfit, which I think makes them rather special. They also lack the ivory tower elitism of all the Buddhist/Taoist wulin institutions - their status as everymen (and woman) makes them a fitting martial heritage for a great hero like Guo Jing.
    Last edited by owbjhx; 08-17-06 at 06:05 AM.

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    Senior Member Ardor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Not necessarily; they were just unheard of.

    The Freaks' problem is that their enemies during LOCH tended to be the top 1% of wulin (Mui Chiu Fung, Yau Chui Gei, East Heretic Wong Yerk See, West Poison Au Yeung Fung). Compared to most of wulin during their time, they weren't half bad. In the background story of the Freaks, it was said that the seven of them once defeated a group of one hundred enemies. Any seven people who could beat up any one hundred people is a force to be reckoned with, even if they can't compare to wulin's creme de la creme.
    Like the divine condor who was kicking Mongolian arse.
    Burying his Dugu 9 Jian manual under an epitaph, Dugu Qiubai felt he has left his legacy for the next generation. He then moved to Shaolin to study Buddhism, sweep floors and tap elite fighters.

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    How many soilders did you think Yang Guo, XLN, and Condor took out before YG offed the Khan?

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    Concerning the Du monks, I always though that ZWJ acted very stupid during the confrontation with them:

    When the 3 divine reverends of Shaolin (Kong generation) came to Mount Wudang and forced ZCS to commit suicide they wanted to fight Z3F 3 on 1 because they considered themselves a generation lower than him.

    When ZWJ was up against the Du monks however, the situation was actually reversed: The Du monks were a full generation above the Kong monks, whereas ZWJ was usually considered to have learned his martial arts from Z3F (not strictly true), so if I was ZWJ I would have humbly insisted on fighting them 9 vs 3 because if I fought them with lesser numbers than the Abbot of Shaolin suggested, would I not be arrogant and disrespectful?

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    Another fighting as a group is: The Six Fairies of the Peach Valley -- Six Funny Old Brothers (SPW).

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimeron
    How many soilders did you think Yang Guo, XLN, and Condor took out before YG offed the Khan?
    Probably not that many. Yeung Gor was busy fighting the Golden Wheel Monk, so he really didn't bother with any soldiers except those who were in his way (and he probably didn't kill them because he didn't need to). Little Dragon Girl and the Divine Condor did not have particularly homicidal tendencies, so I think they concentrated on keeping Mongol soldiers away from Yeung Gor (busy with the Golden Wheel Monk and getting Gwok Seung off the burning tower) rather than piling up the body count.

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    Senior Member AnhHung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterM
    Concerning the Du monks, I always though that ZWJ acted very stupid during the confrontation with them:

    When the 3 divine reverends of Shaolin (Kong generation) came to Mount Wudang and forced ZCS to commit suicide they wanted to fight Z3F 3 on 1 because they considered themselves a generation lower than him.

    When ZWJ was up against the Du monks however, the situation was actually reversed: The Du monks were a full generation above the Kong monks, whereas ZWJ was usually considered to have learned his martial arts from Z3F (not strictly true), so if I was ZWJ I would have humbly insisted on fighting them 9 vs 3 because if I fought them with lesser numbers than the Abbot of Shaolin suggested, would I not be arrogant and disrespectful?
    ZWJ didnt have any options. He did ask for one on one, but the monks refuse and started to attack him. The second time, he did ask for help, so it was 3 on 3.
    You do know that it is just fiction, dont you?

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    Registered User mrchansonchins's Avatar
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    What about the Quanzhen masters? They seemed to be pretty smart about fighting collectively. Qiu Chuji and Ma Yu could take on Yang Kang or the Jin lackeys without too much trouble, as I'm guessing that the other masters could do as well, but if they were facing a more powerful opponent (Mei Chaofeng, Huang Yaoshi), they would use their formations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnhHung
    ZWJ didnt have any options. He did ask for one on one, but the monks refuse and started to attack him. The second time, he did ask for help, so it was 3 on 3.
    Based on the Kong/Z3F logic, ZWJ should really have tossed this numerical equality idea out the window and call for a mass Ming Cult smackdown with Yang Xiao, Fan Yao, Wei Yixiao, Yin Tianzheng, and have the Wu San Ren (if they're around) go and free Xie Xun during the mess and also send a Ming Cult member with good lightness kungfu to run ASAP to Wudang and get Zhang Sanfeng here too

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    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    Based on the Kong/Z3F logic, ZWJ should really have tossed this numerical equality idea out the window and call for a mass Ming Cult smackdown with Yang Xiao, Fan Yao, Wei Yixiao, Yin Tianzheng, and have the Wu San Ren (if they're around) go and free Xie Xun during the mess and also send a Ming Cult member with good lightness kungfu to run ASAP to Wudang and get Zhang Sanfeng here too
    That would have accomplished the mission, but it also would have thrown all of Cheung Mo Gei's work on behalf of the Ming Cult and its reputation during the previous few years out the window. It had taken nothing less than a minor miracle for Cheung Mo Gei to have reconciled the six orthdox sects of wulin with the Ming Cult. Even saving the life of his beloved godfather wasn't worth undoing all of that and plunging the Ming Cult and the orthdox sects into conflict again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrchansonchins
    I'm guessing that the other masters could do as well, but if they were facing a more powerful opponent (Mei Chaofeng, Huang Yaoshi), they would use their formations.
    Against any one of the Greats, the Cheun Jen 7 Disciples would need the Big Dipper Formation. Against Mui Chiu Fung, however, I guess any combination of Ma Yuk, Yau Chui Gei, or Wong Chui 1 with any one of the other four disciples would be enough to simply overwhelm her.

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    Senior Member Zhuge Liang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    That would have accomplished the mission, but it also would have thrown all of Cheung Mo Gei's work on behalf of the Ming Cult and its reputation during the previous few years out the window. It had taken nothing less than a minor miracle for Cheung Mo Gei to have reconciled the six orthdox sects of wulin with the Ming Cult. Even saving the life of his beloved godfather wasn't worth undoing all of that and plunging the Ming Cult and the orthdox sects into conflict again.
    Why? The monks themselves said they fought together regardless of the odds so they have to take the rough with the smooth and can hardly complain if the Ming Cult field more fighters - in which case it could still be fair depending on who and how many they field due to the monks seniority.

    I don't see how win or lose would suddenly make the Ming Cult public enemy again - they were all still indebted to ZWJ.

    Qinlun also pitted their whole clan against the monks although that was without announcement. By contrast ZWJ challenged them with proper notice. The sects also showed time and again that they could tolerate underhanded tactics by one of their own.
    TristeCoeur on Lady Yang: Someone needs 2 tell her that when u want 2 save people from being killed, u need to hurry the hell up, not play bull#### music & dance around. Her mission failed big time

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    even so, the other sects would see the Ming Cult as fighting unfairly with more people. It would still harm the reputation of the cult.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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