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Thread: Most ruthless *heroic* wuxia characters?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Most ruthless *heroic* wuxia characters?

    Villains, by definition, are generally ruthless. It's rather difficult to be a villain in a genre such as wuxia fiction without a strong measure of ruthless.

    Which wuxia *heroes*, however, are also known for being ruthless? These are characters who are basically good and decent, and who serve the cause of order and justice, but whose methods against those whom they deem to be evil can be just as ruthless as those of any villain.

    I don't count Wai Siu Bo because he was no hero (protagonist, yes, but not a hero), but in Jin Yong's canon, I can't identify any ruthless heroic characters. Gu Long, however, has a few: Sai Mun Chui Sheut, though acknowledged by wulin as a hero, was utterly ruthless towards his enemies. Ding Pang, Ah Fei, and to a lesser extent, Lee Chum Foon could also be quite ruthless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Villains, by definition, are generally ruthless. It's rather difficult to be a villain in a genre such as wuxia fiction without a strong measure of ruthless.

    Which wuxia *heroes*, however, are also known for being ruthless? These are characters who are basically good and decent, and who serve the cause of order and justice, but whose methods against those whom they deem to be evil can be just as ruthless as those of any villain.

    I don't count Wai Siu Bo because he was no hero (protagonist, yes, but not a hero), but in Jin Yong's canon, I can't identify any ruthless heroic characters. Gu Long, however, has a few: Sai Mun Chui Sheut, though acknowledged by wulin as a hero, was utterly ruthless towards his enemies. Ding Pang, Ah Fei, and to a lesser extent, Lee Chum Foon could also be quite ruthless.
    Hunag Rong, Ren Ying Ying, Zhao Min are all ruthless towards their enemies. Is it a coincidence that they all happen to be female? I'm not sure what JY feels about ruthlessness with regards to gender.

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Villains, by definition, are generally ruthless. It's rather difficult to be a villain in a genre such as wuxia fiction without a strong measure of ruthless.

    Which wuxia *heroes*, however, are also known for being ruthless? These are characters who are basically good and decent, and who serve the cause of order and justice, but whose methods against those whom they deem to be evil can be just as ruthless as those of any villain.

    I don't count Wai Siu Bo because he was no hero (protagonist, yes, but not a hero), but in Jin Yong's canon, I can't identify any ruthless heroic characters. Gu Long, however, has a few: Sai Mun Chui Sheut, though acknowledged by wulin as a hero, was utterly ruthless towards his enemies. Ding Pang, Ah Fei, and to a lesser extent, Lee Chum Foon could also be quite ruthless.
    HYS? although i dunno if you'll classify him as a "hero"
    only other one i can think of is di yun in his "revenge" phase

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    the nun, mie jue?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless
    the nun, mie jue?
    I think she fails the "good and decent" litmus test.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
    HYS? although i dunno if you'll classify him as a "hero"
    only other one i can think of is di yun in his "revenge" phase
    Di Yun got every reason to be ruthless, when he does that, everybody would still see him in a sympathetic light. I mean, since humanity is so ruthless to him, by committing slight deeds of ruthlessness, he still pales in comparison compared to the likes of Wan Gui. If given a choice, he can be much more kind and nice than the various heroes out there.

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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    XF doesn't hold back, not sure if that counts as ruthless.

    But the female characters are ruthless. Not sure if they are heroic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Which wuxia *heroes*, however, are also known for being ruthless? These are characters who are basically good and decent, and who serve the cause of order and justice, but whose methods against those whom they deem to be evil can be just as ruthless as those of any villain.
    Speaking of the Trilogy, the most well-known example of a ruthless heroine is surely LOCH-era Huang Rong. I like her a lot, but she was quite willing to torture & kill the innocent, and not even for "order & justice". I'm sometimes puzzled by why Huang Rong never seems to provoke the level of irritation that Yang Guo attracts, as they're actually rather similar characters: besides the moral ambiguity, both of them do their fair share of grudge-bearing and childish whining, and neither *naturally* had Guo Jing's deep Confucian concern for the people. Both of them, for reasons connected to their chosen mates and their own growing-up, of course ended up doing quite a bit of good.

    Surely the Trilogy's single most striking example of ruthless justice must be the scene in LOCH where Huang Yaoshi comes across the Jin mercenaries bullying Sha Gu at Ox Village. HYS utterly humiliates them, and the harmless idiot Hou Tonghai gets his arm ripped off only for his unwillingness to make the most ignominious of exits. (HYS then follows it up with a blistering, attitude-packed rant.) It's a shocking but exhilarating scene. I was never really convinced about HYS before that - I just thought he was a bit of an a**hole - but it made me a believer. You could argue that HYS counts as 'heroic' because of his assistance in defending Xiangyang; but as with everything about him, it's never clear-cut.

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    Senior Member Ardor's Avatar
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    LHC kills quite often, mostly due to the nature of the DG9J
    Burying his Dugu 9 Jian manual under an epitaph, Dugu Qiubai felt he has left his legacy for the next generation. He then moved to Shaolin to study Buddhism, sweep floors and tap elite fighters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by owbjhx
    I'm sometimes puzzled by why Huang Rong never seems to provoke the level of irritation that Yang Guo attracts, as they're actually rather similar characters: besides the moral ambiguity, both of them do their fair share of grudge-bearing and childish whining, and neither *naturally* had Guo Jing's deep Confucian concern for the people. Both of them, for reasons connected to their chosen mates and their own growing-up, of course ended up doing quite a bit of good.
    Fairly or not, the morality bar is set higher for the main male character of wuxia novels than it is for his female love interest. The main hero must consistently be heroic, or he opens himself up for criticism. Wong Yung, being the main hero's love interest and female (not to be sexist, but wuxia fiction *is* sexist in that way; it's a convention of the genre, for better or worse), doesn't need to be held to such standards. It's not her function to be the moral center of LOCH (whereas it *was* Yeung Gor's function to be the moral center of ROCH - his obligation as main character and *hero* of the story); she was the daughter of a man known as "East Heretic" and that was the billing she had to live up to, at least until she was "tamed" by Gwok Jing (NOTE: not saying that this isn't sexist, but it is what it is). Yeung Gor, as the main hero of ROCH, was expected to meet a higher standard. Ultimately, he does, but the journey is so fitful that it wears on some.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Fairly or not, the morality bar is set higher for the main male character of wuxia novels than it is for his female love interest. The main hero must consistently be heroic, or he opens himself up for criticism. Wong Yung, being the main hero's love interest and female (not to be sexist, but wuxia fiction *is* sexist in that way; it's a convention of the genre, for better or worse), doesn't need to be held to such standards. It's not her function to be the moral center of LOCH (whereas it *was* Yeung Gor's function to be the moral center of ROCH - his obligation as main character and *hero* of the story); she was the daughter of a man known as "East Heretic" and that was the billing she had to live up to, at least until she was "tamed" by Gwok Jing (NOTE: not saying that this isn't sexist, but it is what it is). Yeung Gor, as the main hero of ROCH, was expected to meet a higher standard. Ultimately, he does, but the journey is so fitful that it wears on some.
    WXB did not gather so much hate but he is by far the least moral character i know.
    Burying his Dugu 9 Jian manual under an epitaph, Dugu Qiubai felt he has left his legacy for the next generation. He then moved to Shaolin to study Buddhism, sweep floors and tap elite fighters.

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    Senior Member dgfds01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardor
    WXB did not gather so much hate but he is by far the least moral character i know.
    That's because he's not expected to be a hero. Right from the start (almost), the audience knows that he is a scoundrel and will remain so. That's part of his charm.

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    Default Not-So-Great Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Fairly or not, the morality bar is set higher for the main male character of wuxia novels than it is for his female love interest. The main hero must consistently be heroic, or he opens himself up for criticism. Wong Yung, being the main hero's love interest and female (not to be sexist, but wuxia fiction *is* sexist in that way; it's a convention of the genre, for better or worse), doesn't need to be held to such standards.
    Thanks for responding. What you just described has a lot to do with the patterns of bias & expectation in discussions about the novels, and little to do with what's actually in the texts. I don't see the evidence in the Trilogy novels for any framework of "morality bar[s]" which characters "need to be held to" which differ according to gender or plot. If you're talking about the way some people read the novels, I'm rather glad I don't read them in that way.

    If, due to this hypothetical framework, readers were incapable of holding two very similar characters appearing in the same set of novels to the one same set of moral & personal standards, such a reading would not only be short-sighted, unproductive and unfair, but also morally dubious. It is furthermore disingenuous to hold YG to Guo Jing's standards but absolve the YG-like Huang Rong. I don't see how any sort of sexist convention comes into it; this would be entirely the fault of the readers themselves.

    Part of what makes LOCH interesting, and HR an interesting character, is that she is clearly shown to be morally inferior to Guo Jing, but is able to use him to steer herself from villainy to heroism. GJ sets the measure for the morality of her actions, and her triumph is in her meeting of his standards. So in LOCH, to use the language of the framework, the same morality bar applies to both GJ & HR, and HR certainly needs to be held to such standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Yeung Gor, as the main hero of ROCH, was expected to meet a higher standard.
    Here's a suggestion. If readers don't see something they expected to see, or it happens that their own standards are different to (not necessarily "higher" than) the standards in what they're reading, they may be disappointed. But perhaps they would get more out of their experience by, instead, asking why Jin Yong chose to write his novel that particular way and not in the way they expected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by owbjhx
    she is clearly shown to be morally inferior to Guo Jing
    I wholeheartedly agree.
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    owbjhx, what you said about morality is very interesting. As far as the translations I've read go, Jin Yong doesn't state outright that the main male character must be considered by different and often higher moral standards than the female characters. However, Jin Yong's world does operate by a sexist standard.

    Jin Yong frames his novel based on Confucian ideals. The heroes are expected to be filial to their parents, defend their country, etc. This makes sense as it's historically sound -- China in JY's novels was largely Confucian. Thus, JY's characters are not modern-day people walking around with swords and robes, and JY's world is not the modern world with swords -- it's an ancient Confucian world.

    Confucianism has an inherent sexism. It's either not very bad in that it's not a sore thumb or it's horribly bad in that it appears so matter-of-factly. Case in point: one of the aphorisms in the Analects is: Women and people of low birth are very hard to deal with. The bold is mine. Morever, ancient Chinese society wasn't balanced sexually. How many emperors have been female? One -- and her legacy was heavily reviled by Confucian scholars afterwards. Of the famous poets, artists, musicians, authors, how many are women? Not that many. (I can actually only think of two -- Li Qingzhao and Cai Wenji.)

    So JY's novels follow Confucianism ideals and Confucianism ideals are sexist. You might say, though, that JY followed Confucianism but took out the sexism. But there's evidence that JY's novels themselves are sexist.

    The structure and character emphases in JY's novels suggest an inherent sexism. The most obvious is that the main character is always a male. And how many times have women had to deal with issues of morality on the same level as their male counterparts? Yang Guo: shall I seek revenge or protect my country? XLN: shall I follow my Guo'er or should I merely pine for him? Xiao Feng: am I a Khitan or a Han; what does it mean to be either; how do I satisfy both sides? Ah Zhu: I love you Xiao Feng. Don't die for me. Ah Zi: I love you Xiao Feng. I'll kill you to be with me.

    Jin Yong's novels are inherently sexist and put men and women on different planes of moral ambiguity. That's in the text.

    However, I do agree that many readers hate Yang Guo because they're expecting another Guo Jing. That isn't textual; that's in the reader's head.

    But to get back on topic -- I don't think Yang Guo can be considered ruthless: he gets too sentimental before he can bring down his sword. I don't know enough of Guo Jing, but he seems rather merciful. Linghu Chong has ruthless moments -- he killed those members of the 'orthodox' schools in the beginning -- but those were under extreme circumstances. His other ruthless moments came as a result of his DG9J. Xiao Feng's big bloodbath at the manor was very, uh, bloody, but that's not exactly ruthless....

    I guess I would say Linghu Chong.

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    Personally, I think XF at JY Manor was ruthless. It's true that everyone wanted XF dead, but I personally think XF's battle and bloodbath at JY Manor was unneccesary. While I do agree that there should be a battle, but there was no need of the weaker and innocent people to die.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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    True. I blame alcohol - it causes 3000 premature death in Aus per year.

    XF just happened to do 1/10 of that in 30min.
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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by owbjhx
    Here's a suggestion. If readers don't see something they expected to see, or it happens that their own standards are different to (not necessarily "higher" than) the standards in what they're reading, they may be disappointed. But perhaps they would get more out of their experience by, instead, asking why Jin Yong chose to write his novel that particular way and not in the way they expected.
    I'm conscious of that. I've been conscious of that for a long time. It doesn't make me dislike Yeung Gor any less, however.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dius corvus
    Jin Yong frames his novel based on Confucian ideals...This makes sense as it's historically sound -- China in JY's novels was largely Confucian. Thus, JY's characters are not modern-day people walking around with swords and robes, and JY's world is not the modern world with swords -- it's an ancient Confucian world.

    Confucianism has an inherent sexism...Morever, ancient Chinese society wasn't balanced sexually. How many emperors have been female? One -- and her legacy was heavily reviled by Confucian scholars afterwards. Of the famous poets, artists, musicians, authors, how many are women? Not that many.
    In the unlikely event that Jin Yong is reading this, I'm sure he'd be overjoyed at your assessment of his work, but personally, I think you overestimate the historical & philosophical 'authenticity' of his novels. The Trilogy books are fantasy tales set in the imaginary realm of jianghu. Let's not mess around: these are 20th-century novels written outside of China by a 20th-century writer; for an audience of 20th-century newspaper readers living outside of China; using nostalgic, romantic notions of a heroic China for the purposes of 20th-century escapism. JY uses some historical events and some of his themes are undeniably Confucian, but this doesn't mean that other historical events and other aspects of Confucian thinking suddenly have explanatory power over JY's texts. And there are actually rather a lot of things in his work which are rather un-historical and rather un-Confucian. How about all these powerful, respected, cool, sword-wielding, butt-kicking, trash-talking women, for starters?

    Quote Originally Posted by dius corvus
    The structure and character emphases in JY's novels suggest an inherent sexism. The most obvious is that the main character is always a male.
    Just because a writer happens to write novels with male main characters doesn't necessarily tell us that the novels have "inherent sexism". The same would be the case if all the novels have female main characters, or even if exactly 50% of them have male protagonists and 50% female protagonists; going from this to an assessment of "inherent sexism" is rather a big jump. I could write a really sexist novel featuring a neutered cat as a main character, and write a really feminist novel featuring my male macho manly self: it's all in the text. You could say that some sort of "inherent sexism" is inevitable because a writer (being a human) has to have *a* gender and a main character has to have *a* gender. But getting from there to "different planes of moral ambiguity" is an even bigger jump. Maybe you're right, but pointing at what the main character's groin looks like is not enough as a textual argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by dius corvus
    And how many times have women had to deal with issues of morality on the same level as their male counterparts?
    Now this is more like it! If you're observing that JY's texts consistently depict women to be less interested in lofty public rights & wrongs and more interested in intimate private or romantic issues, I'd agree. I could sum it up by paraphrasing the Analects (4:11): "The Gentleman thinks of justice; the [Lady] thinks of favours." But does JY go further and consistently imply that the former preoccupations are 'better' than the latter, rather than just 'different'? Quite possibly. I'm not sure, myself. There's definitely some room here for your sexism argument, though.

    Finally, thanks for responding in such a well thought-out and considered manner. I'm not quite in agreement with exactly what you're arguing, but I do actually have a feeling that you're ultimately right about the sexism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    I'm conscious of that. I've been conscious of that for a long time. It doesn't make me dislike Yeung Gor any less, however.
    This is a good example of the notion that I've been promoting about martial arts, when I was discussing Feng Qingyang vs Dongfang Bubai with Wu Wudi: realization does not automatically translate into application. I may realize something but it's still up to me to do something about it. In terms of martial arts, just because I know what to do, doesn't mean I can actually do it.

    Well, it's kind of related, anyway.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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