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Thread: The tobacco pipe: a key clue to figuring out Gu Long continuity.

  1. #21
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    There is actually a nice passage in Tianya, Mingyue, Dao which tries to tie in a lot of the timeline of the "Dagger Lee" series. Basically, it mentions the heroes who dominated the last 4 decades. The first decade was dominated by Shen Lang (Wulin Waishi), the second decade was owned by Li Xunhuan (Duoqing Jianke), the third decade belonged to Ye Kai (Jiuyue / Biancheng), and the fourth decade belonged to Gongzi Yu. This at least suggests that those novels were about 10 years apart from each other.
    I remember that passage too. But if you examine it too closely, even this timeline is stretching things. Ye Kai can't dominate until he makes his debut, and that's around age 18. If Li XunHuan dominated the decade right before, that would mean that his peak occured post Sentimental Swordsman. And we know that Li has been famous, and included in the Book of Weapons, even before then. And that pushes Shen Lang further back too.

    Of course, you can read it in more general terms. Not necessarily that they were all exactly 10 years apart, which is impossible, but that they each played their largest roles within a 10 year window in that relative order. But then that would contradict the "last 4 decades" remark.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Temujin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    Well, in his own words, Fu Hongxue is a killer, not a hero. Only heroes are recognized as the renowned figures of their eras.
    In which novel did he say that ? To me, FHX is always full of vengeance type of guy, looking to take his revenge, so I think he kills for some sort of reasons, though he is very cold-blooded at times, he is not just some mass murderer.

    But since he said it himself ...
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Was there a top 10 weapon rank in Shen Lang's time? How about 10 years after Li Xunhuan's peak?
    The "Book of Weapons" or 兵器谱 is written by Bao Xiao Sheng, and it only exists during the time of LXH.
    ..ext88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Temujin
    In which novel did he say that ? To me, FHX is always full of vengeance type of guy, looking to take his revenge, so I think he kills for some sort of reasons, though he is very cold-blooded at times, he is not just some mass murderer.

    But since he said it himself ...
    I don't think he considers himself a mass-murderer or anything of that sort. I believe he just doesn't consider himself a hero much like how Ximen Chuixue would be reluctant to classify himself as a hero. They are swordsman and believe that the only thing they dispense is death.
    明月心跳起來,又回頭,嫣然道,你還要不要我帶上那面具?
    傅紅雪冷道,現在你臉上豈非已經戴上了個面具?

  5. #25
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default The tobacco pipe: a key clue to figuring out Gu Long continuity.

    For a long time, I've been trying to peg down the approximate dates of prominent Gu Long stories such as LUK SIU FUNG and SENTIMENTAL SWORDSMAN, RUTHLESS SWORD without great success. Laviathan helped to identify an allusion to a 16th Century Japanese warlord named Hideyoshi in LUK SIU FUNG, and Tiger Wong opined that SS,RS probably occurred in a similar timeframe as the LUK SIU FUNG saga.

    I think I might have stumbled upon an extra piece of information that might help pinpoint the time period of these two Gu Long classics: a simple tobacco smoking pipe.

    Tobacco plants have grown wild in the Americas since prehistoric times, but were unknown in Eurasia until after Christopher Columbus' first voyage to the New World in C.E. 1492. It probably took several years after Columbus' voyage for Europeans to discover and become fond of tobacco, and several more years for the use of tobacco to spread (via Europe) to East Asia through trade. The means that tobacco smoking products and implements were unknown in China until sometime in the 1500s.

    In LUK SIU FUNG, one of the heroes of San Sai smoked a pipe, and in SENTIMENTAL SWORDSMAN, RUTHLESS SWORD, Old Man Sheun the storyteller was also a pipe-smoker. The presence of the pipe in these stories confirms both Laviathan's and Tiger Wong's assessments about the approximate time periods of LUK SIU FUNG and SS, RS in the mid-1500s. SS,RS could not have happened too close to 1600 because stories such as BORDERTOWN WANDERER and ROUND MOON, CURVED SABRE took place decades after SS,RS, but both BW and RM,CS still take place in a Ming Dynasty setting, without the hint of an impending Manchurian threat. If LSF was indeed contemporary with SS,RS, then it must also have occurred during the mid-1500s.

    So a tobacco-smoking pipe might be the clue that pinpoints the time period of two Gu Long novels.

  6. #26
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    Gu Long isn't particularly very interested in the timelines. Once or twice I saw him having events that cannot co-exist in the same timeline.

  7. #27
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacifian
    Gu Long isn't particularly very interested in the timelines. Once or twice I saw him having events that cannot co-exist in the same timeline.
    Jin Yong is also sometimes willing to bend history for his narrative needs. The Mongolian invasion of the Jin Empire was greatly condensed to fit the timeframe of LOCH (if Jin Yong had followed history strictly, Gwok Jing would have been in his 30s by the time LOCH ended), and of course, the historical Mongke Khan was not killed by Yeung Gor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Jin Yong is also sometimes willing to bend history for his narrative needs. The Mongolian invasion of the Jin Empire was greatly condensed to fit the timeframe of LOCH (if Jin Yong had followed history strictly, Gwok Jing would have been in his 30s by the time LOCH ended), and of course, the historical Mongke Khan was not killed by Yeung Gor.
    At least he bothered to include the historical events that took place and all the politics that existed, in most of GL's novels, hardly any of such stuff was brought up.

    If he was to follow history so strictly he might as well not write a novel, Guo Jing after all, did not exist

  9. #29
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Back on this subject, how long after the events of SENTIMENTAL SWORDSMAN, RUTHLESS SWORD did the events of FULL MOON, CURVED SABRE occur? Was there anybody who lived during the time of Lee Chum Foon and Ah Fei still alive during the time of Ding Pang?

  10. #30
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    The granddaughter (or was it great-granddaughter... can't remember exactly..) of Long XiaoYun, the young boy whom Li XunHuan stripped of his martial arts, appears in "Full Moon, Curved Sabre". She was a teenager, so you can make your own estimates from there. I'd think there'd be at least a period of around 50 years or so in between the stories.

  11. #31
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerWong View Post
    The granddaughter (or was it great-granddaughter... can't remember exactly..) of Long XiaoYun, the young boy whom Li XunHuan stripped of his martial arts, appears in "Full Moon, Curved Sabre". She was a teenager, so you can make your own estimates from there. I'd think there'd be at least a period of around 50 years or so in between the stories.
    Was that Ding Heung, Ching Ching's servant, who demonstrated some proficiency with Little Lee's Flying Dagger?

  12. #32
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Was that Ding Heung, Ching Ching's servant, who demonstrated some proficiency with Little Lee's Flying Dagger?
    That would be the one, although in the novel she was called Xiao Xiang (Siu Heang). Her real last name would be Long, of course.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerWong View Post
    That would be the one, although in the novel she was called Xiao Xiang (Siu Heang). Her real last name would be Long, of course.
    As of the end of SENTIMENTAL SWORDSMAN, RUTHLESS SWORD, the Lung family (at least the father and son) were on bad terms with Lee Chum Foon. How odd that he would teach his flying dagger skill to one of their descendents.

  14. #34
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    As of the end of SENTIMENTAL SWORDSMAN, RUTHLESS SWORD, the Lung family (at least the father and son) were on bad terms with Lee Chum Foon. How odd that he would teach his flying dagger skill to one of their descendents.
    Apparently Li XunHuan felt that he owed the Long family for all they have been through. In the end, he finally realized that he shouldn't have "given" Lin ShiYan to Long XiaoYun Sr., and regretted his decision greatly (about time that idiot figured this one out...). So to make amends, he taught Xiao Xiang's grandfather his flying dagger technique and gave him one of his daggers (the more I think about it, Long XiaoYun Jr., the boy, must have been the great-grandfather then..).

    However, after discovering this, Lin ShiYan told Long XiaoYun Jr. to cripple the grandfather's hands. Although the Long family have disgraced themselves and are looked down upon by the entire martial fraternity, she will still honor her husband's name and refused to allow her family to be dependant on Li XunHuan's "charity".

    Therefore, I believe the dagger was passed down, but not the technique.

  15. #35
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerWong View Post
    Apparently Li XunHuan felt that he owed the Long family for all they have been through. In the end, he finally realized that he shouldn't have "given" Lin ShiYan to Long XiaoYun Sr., and regretted his decision greatly (about time that idiot figured this one out...). So to make amends, he taught Xiao Xiang's grandfather his flying dagger technique and gave him one of his daggers (the more I think about it, Long XiaoYun Jr., the boy, must have been the great-grandfather then..).

    However, after discovering this, Lin ShiYan told Long XiaoYun Jr. to cripple the grandfather's hands. Although the Long family have disgraced themselves and are looked down upon by the entire martial fraternity, she will still honor her husband's name and refused to allow her family to be dependant on Li XunHuan's "charity".

    Therefore, I believe the dagger was passed down, but not the technique.
    And I thought Lam Chi Yam wanted nothing more to do with her husband after she learned how he betrayed Lee Chum Foon.

    Nevertheless, somehow, Ding Heung/Siu Heung became quite proficient with the flying dagger. She wasn't as good as Lee Chum Foon, naturally, but she was still damn good.

  16. #36
    Senior Member mawguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerWong View Post
    Apparently Li XunHuan felt that he owed the Long family for all they have been through. In the end, he finally realized that he shouldn't have "given" Lin ShiYan to Long XiaoYun Sr., and regretted his decision greatly (about time that idiot figured this one out...). So to make amends, he taught Xiao Xiang's grandfather his flying dagger technique and gave him one of his daggers (the more I think about it, Long XiaoYun Jr., the boy, must have been the great-grandfather then..).

    However, after discovering this, Lin ShiYan told Long XiaoYun Jr. to cripple the grandfather's hands. Although the Long family have disgraced themselves and are looked down upon by the entire martial fraternity, she will still honor her husband's name and refused to allow her family to be dependant on Li XunHuan's "charity".

    Therefore, I believe the dagger was passed down, but not the technique.
    just to further clarify: li xunhuan met long xiaoyun jr. early in the story and didn't know who his parents were. LXY jr was being a real ***, and to punish him, LXH crippled him. later on, in atonement for this further injury toward lin shiyan, LXH was coerced by her to teach his flying dagger technique to her son so that he would have some skill to protect himself against enemies -- his father was totally disgraced by then.

    i haven't read the ding peng story, so i can't say how good/bad the great-granddaughter's technique is, but i know she boasted that the dagger she possessed was given to LXY jr by LXF.
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  17. #37
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mawguy View Post
    just to further clarify: li xunhuan met long xiaoyun jr. early in the story and didn't know who his parents were. LXY jr was being a real ***, and to punish him, LXH crippled him. later on, in atonement for this further injury toward lin shiyan, LXH was coerced by her to teach his flying dagger technique to her son so that he would have some skill to protect himself against enemies -- his father was totally disgraced by then.

    i haven't read the ding peng story, so i can't say how good/bad the great-granddaughter's technique is, but i know she boasted that the dagger she possessed was given to LXY jr by LXF.
    Lung Siu Wan Jr. was crippled by Lee Chum Foon, and later (if TVB didn't make this up) cut off one of his own arms after being humiliated publicly along with his father by Seung Gwoon Gum Hung. With this double injury, could Lung Jr. even make use of the dagger?

  18. #38
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Lung Siu Wan Jr. was crippled by Lee Chum Foon, and later (if TVB didn't make this up) cut off one of his own arms after being humiliated publicly along with his father by Seung Gwoon Gum Hung. With this double injury, could Lung Jr. even make use of the dagger?
    I don't recall Mawguy's description/scenario, but as far as "Full Moon, Curved Sabre"'s explanation, Li XunHuan passed on the dagger + the technique to Long XiaoYun Jr's SON (and not Long XiaoYun Jr.) as atonement for his own feelings of guilt. Then, as I mentioned, Lin ShiYan made Long XiaoYun Jr cripple his son. She was too proud to accept Li XunHuan's gesture.

    So there is no contradiction w. your question as far as the description I gave (although Long XiaoYun Jr. should have recovered from his injuries anyway due to Wang LianHua's manual but thats a separate issue).
    Last edited by TigerWong; 01-23-08 at 02:19 AM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerWong View Post
    Then, as I mentioned, Lin ShiYan made Long XiaoYun Jr cripple his son. She was too proud to accept Li XunHuan's gesture.
    These people are weird, aren't they?

  20. #40
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    These people are weird, aren't they?
    Theres no shortage of eccentric people in these stories...

    And I just noticed your comment about Xiao Xiang's skill. I don't remember it as being particularly noteworthy. But I think she did admit to not knowing Dagger's Li's technique, and then went on to tell the story explaining why.

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