IMO,Originally Posted by K2Grey
Scientist = Martial artist. --> discovery and refinement
Engineer/Technologist = Fighter. --> application and execution
IMO,Originally Posted by K2Grey
Scientist = Martial artist. --> discovery and refinement
Engineer/Technologist = Fighter. --> application and execution
忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」
never once did i say that the two (being an inventor and being a great martial artist) are mutually exclusive. yes, they overlap but that does not mean they are one and the same.Originally Posted by PJ
anyhow, i've disagreed with many of your posts before but never bothered to voice my opinion as i see that we are both set in our own ways...however, you have gone too far this time by suggesting that yg is the ultimate martial artist among the protagonist as you freely chose to neglect all other factors which make one a great martial artist and solely concentrate on yg's "brillance" at conjuring a new move and hence for that reason alone you find him the "best" martial artist.
and i disagree that a martial artist and a fighter are completely different from one another as there is much overlap between the two, and i don't see how you could possibly categorize all the protagonists into either category as each and every single one of them is both a fighter and a martial artist. you are subjecting all fo us to your idea of what a martial artist is and i cannot accept that since your views are as biased as mine and it's obvious that we are not in agreement with much when it comes to yg.
anyhow...i'm sure someone else can articulate my points better than i can and conjure a more convincing argument than me as to why yg is not and will never be considered the ultimate martial artist among the protagonist for many of us (since i've been doing such a poor job at it).
Last edited by patricia n; 08-20-06 at 11:16 PM.
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good engineers are also inventor, nay? the guy who created the GPS invented the GPS, but it doesn't mean he made the best GPS after all these years of refinement. however, you'd more likely to say that the GPS inventor is more "talented" than the GPS refiners, wouldn't you?Originally Posted by K2Grey
"Are you man enough to eat tofu?"
Order of Knights of the Holy Tofu
STOP using DHMO! It kills innocent lives!
Not neccesary IMO. The GPS refiner could be of equal talent to the inventor except the inventor invented and was born eariler. However, if we are to compare a GPS Refiner and someone who doesn't do anything and only fully understands the GPS, then who is more talented?Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响,一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚。
此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗。
of course not necessarily, but if you were to put a bet on who has the more talent...then who would you put ur money on? and if you are to put money on a GPS "refiner" and someone who only builds the GPS according to the directions, then who would you bet on to have the better understanding for GPS? Then compare the one who builds GPS and the one that doesn't do anything...who has the better understanding? surely it's POSSIBLE for the one who does nothing to understand the physiology of GPS just as well as the one who "refines" or even "invents", but what are the chances of that?Originally Posted by Whsie
likewise, Einstein wasn't necessaily the smartest man on earth during his lifetime. There may be plenty of hidden geniuses out there in the world who may have done better than Einstein...just too bad they never got the chance to show off. hence, if you were to compare Einstein & that person, arn't you more likely to believe Einstein is the "smarter" guy?
Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 08-21-06 at 01:47 AM.
"Are you man enough to eat tofu?"
Order of Knights of the Holy Tofu
STOP using DHMO! It kills innocent lives!
Xie Xun didn't really teach ZWJ martial arts, he just forced ZWJ to memorize everything. XX didn't bother to explain or show anything to ZWJ because there wasn't enough time. ZSF didn't really teach ZWJ martial arts either until ZWJ was all grown up when he returned to Wudang. While ZWJ wasn't completely unexposed to martial arts, I don't think it's unfair to say that ZWJ's training wasn't remotely close to the training that YG got from XLN and even OYF. Also, XLN and YG got to figure out together the things in the ancient tomb walls. In terms of the HIS, YG definately had help from the condor. The condor was the one who pushed YG to take the heavy sword and forced him to practice in the waterfalls, so I think that brother condor should definately get some credit.Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
If you're going to claim that YG is more talented because he invented his own martial arts, then I think you also have to recognize that ZWJ reached the same level with much less training. Who do you think is more talented among two musicians who are equally good, one who was trained in Julliard and one who was self educated? I'm not saying that ZWJ is absolutely more talented, I just think that you can't just say that YG is more talented while ignoring the facts that show that someone like ZWJ is more talented.
Well, GJ's lack of comprehension is just on the surface. While GJ is not a fast thinker, he's not as stupid as he seems. GJ was able to contemplate martial arts from different angles and able to understand deeper concepts. Also, GJ had the talent to stay calm and learn much about martial arts in the midst of combat. I think JY tried to clarify the misconception about GJ's stupidity by using Z3F to explain that talent for martial arts had little to do with intelligence and Z3F specifically mentioned GJ as an example.Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
YG had a move where the sleeve of his broken arm is used as a weapon which obviously can't be used by a nonhandicapped person. There's also another move where YG uses his torso to attack. While that torso move can be repeated by a nonhandicapped fighter, why would someone use the torso when another arm can be used? Two armed fighters can use the sad palms but the sad palms are obviously more suitable for a one armed fighter and can help negate the disadvantages of having one arm. Remember that fights between two high level fighters can be determined by a very small factor and having one less arm is obviously a pretty big disadvantage, so I don't think it's a stretch to think that YG created the Sad Palms to make up for his 1 arm disadvantage.Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
Well, I'd suppose that the sleeve could be used if one withdrew their arm from their sleeve. Although of course it's easier to just hit with that arm. And the torso move can be useful by a non-handicapped fighter because 1) its unusual and 2) it allows for unusual defensive options since now you can match your torso against someone else's palm, which will shock the other guy to say the least.
Now that I think about it, if "Out of Nothing" has a torso hit and a headbutt, I wonder if it also has a hit with the butt or something like that :P
Only someone like ZBT would be crazy enough to withdraw the arm and then hit with the sleeve. Now that you mention it, it would have been really funny if JY had shown how crazy WBT was about martial arts by having ZBT cut off an arm to learn YG"s sad palms.Originally Posted by K2Grey
I doubt that YG had a butt stomp move since he was supposed to be slender and probably had a small butt.
Having a small butt has nothing to do with anything...He just needs to bend his waist.
Now that I think about it, this reminds me of the Drunken Master movie where at the end when Jackie Chan fights the end villain, he goes through the martial arts of various past drunken masters and is defeated. Then the villain tells JC to bring out the martial arts of Lady Ho, which JC actually doesn't know, so he makes up various moves including a butt smash.
OK.Originally Posted by patricia n
Everyone is free to express his/her opinion on this forum. If you don't agree with me then feel free to express your perspective. Only through evidence-based discussion can we improve our knowledge as readers and fans of wuxia. However If you choose not to have your voice be heard then that is your choice.anyhow, i've disagreed with many of your posts before but never bothered to voice my opinion as i see that we are both set in our own ways...
I'll cut right to the point: what ALL OTHER FACTORS? Keep in mind that Jin Yong intended Zhang Sanfeng to be the greatest martial artist of all, and he is mostly known for the martial arts that he CREATED.however, you have gone too far this time by suggesting that yg is the ultimate martial artist among the protagonist as you freely chose to neglect all other factors which make one a great martial artist and solely concentrate on yg's "brillance" at conjuring a new move and hence for that reason alone you find him the "best" martial artist.
Anyway, who in your opinion qualifies as the ultimate martial artist among the protagonists?
Just as you claim to not have mutually excluded inventor and martial artist, do note that neither did I mutually exclude fighter and martial artist.and i disagree that a martial artist and a fighter are completely different from one another as there is much overlap between the two,
I never categorized all the protagonists into one and only one category.and i don't see how you could possibly categorize all the protagonists into either category as each and every single one of them is both a fighter and a martial artist.
First of all, it's not like I am declaring a fact. This is a discussion after all. I keep saying IMO (in my opinion) this, IMO that, to signify that it is only an opinion.you are subjecting all fo us to your idea of what a martial artist is and i cannot accept that
Secondly, I did explain my reason for my definition of martial artist (Jin Yong's comments about Zhang Sanfeng). I am by no means one who worships Yang Guo. I just wanted to point out a unique characteristic of his achievement. The reason that I talk mostly about Yang Guo, Shi Potian and Xiao Feng among the protagonists is due to my limited knowledge of the other protagonists.
I don't know anything about your opinions of Yang Guo.since your views are as biased as mine and it's obvious that we are not in agreement with much when it comes to yg.
Sounds like you are already biased towards Yang Guo's character. However please keep in mind that it is best to come into a discussion with somewhat of an open mind. Not accusing you of any particular bias (since again, I am unaware of your opinions of him), but I want to make it clear that we are talking about Yang Guo as a martial artist. We are not talking about whether we like him or not. If I have offended you in any way in the past, it was not my intention and I hereby apologise.anyhow...i'm sure someone else can articulate my points better than i can and conjure a more convincing argument than me as to why yg is not and will never be considered the ultimate martial artist among the protagonist for many of us (since i've been doing such a poor job at it).
I will reply to your earlier post in my next post.
忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」
oh.... trust me Patriaca hates YG and is biased toward him.
法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响,一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚。
此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗。
IMO, "the level that one has reached in (attaining/performing) martial arts" is not the same as "how good of a martial artist one is." I realize that my wording is terrible so many apologies in advance.Originally Posted by patricia n
The new skill might not be better than an existing one; however what the inventor has accomplished, is experimenting, discovering and formulating a new art to express himself/herself, because the currently existing arts do not match his/her personality and/or needs. That in my opinion is a great achievement that cannot be compared to simply learning an art handed down to you, created by others, and the hardest part is already done for you (in most cases).while i agree that in order to invent a new skill, one would have to have a great understanding of martial arts, that does not suggest that the new skill would be the best
Please note the artist component in the words "Martial Artist." According to DICTIONARY.COM, the first 2 definitions of "artist" are:
1. One ... who is able by virtue of imagination and talent or skill to create works of aesthetic value....
2. A person whose work shows exceptional creative ability or skill
Accordingly, the role of a martial artist is heavily linked to the ability to create new forms of art.
Now, we may never agree on the definition of exactly what constitute a good martial artist; however I wanted to share with you my reasons for my definition.
Well, then do you consider Yideng to be a better martial artist than Ouyang Feng? Since Yideng's art is relatively safe to practice while Ouyang Feng's Toad methods are extremely dangerous.plus, given the fact that yg has to be an emotional wreck in order to wreak havoc, i find it more difficult to grasp that he could be the "ultimate martial artist" as i personally find that one who demonstrates consistency in his performance to be superior to one who has to rely on his emotion to execute his signature move.
In my opinion, creativity/originality/imagination is one of the most important aspects of judging how good a martial artist is (as suggested by dictionary's definition of "artist"). Along with how effective the art is of course. As far as this criterion (originality), I do not consider learning an art handed-down by previous generations to be on par with creating a new art, even if the new art is most hazardous, because the artist proved that he could stand on his own when faced with the delimma of not having any style that suited him. If they did not have access to any arts that suited them, what would Wuji, Yideng, Hong Qigong, Xiao Feng, and Guo Jing do? Maybe they can invent something of their own, but we don't know that for sure.
I think you were still mainly talking about execution, while I'm talking about invention. Execution is the role of a fighter while invention is the role of a martial artist. A martial artist is usually also a fighter of course, but that just means they have dual roles. A good martial artist doesn't have to be a good fighter (think of the creators of Qiankun Danuoyi and Dragon Elephant Prana, who had great visions but couldn't actually master their own art), and a good fighter isn't necessarily a good martial artist (think of Aobai).hence, i would put zwj at a much higher level than yg. though zwj never invented his own move, i would not look down on that. many of the arguments against zwj being an awesome fighter is because of his advantage in knowing qkdly and 9 yang but so what? hasn't yg also the advantage of learning dugu's techniques and eating the snake's gallbladder? why are his fans claiming that it's fair for yg to have this advantage but cry foul when zwj has his own luck with martial arts?
Example: earlier I compared a martial artist to a scientist, while a fighter to a engineer/technologist. I know some computer science students who have trouble setting up anti-virus and firewall software on their computer... and yet those kinds of software is what they learn to create in class! So being able to create something does not mean one can apply it well in reality. And certainly, applying it well does not at all mean one has the ability to create it.
My point is: being good at executing pre-existing styles is not really a qualification for a good martist. That's why I think there is a major difference between a martial artist, and a fighter.
It doesn't make him superior in actual combat (as a fighter), but (you already know) IMO it makes him a more competent martial artist.again, just because one invents a move does not make him superior
I do not think the new style needs to be better than the existing one in order to consider the new style creator as a superior artist....unless that new skill has been shown to be much superior than all else around and the execution of that move is not dependent on many factors. yg is good, i'll admit that much but to label him as the ultimate is stretching it tooooo much. if you argue for potential than that is a moot point since that's left entirely to our imagination. and in my mind, zwj's potential surpasses yg's by far.
PJ
Last edited by PJ; 08-21-06 at 11:54 PM.
忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」
Who would you say has the better art skills, the person who invented the Impressionist style or the one who made the best Impressionist paintings? Who would you say has better music skills, the guy who invented Baroque music (whoever he is) or J.S. Bach? Who is the superior Qiankun Danuoyist, the guy who invented QKDNY or ZWJ?
I would go with the second guy in all cases.
In the case of Qiankun Danuoyi, for me the inventor is clearly the superior artist. He actually came up with the vision, the foundation, the concept to make it work, only he didn't have enough internal energy to actually practice it to perfection. Zhang Wuji had the benefit of 9 Yang internal energy; that's why he could learn Qiankun D so fast.
All artists must first learn their trade from others. Later on they will go on to produce artwork of their own. However at this point Wuji is not much of an artist yet, in my humble opinion.
忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」
OK, upon consideration I would agree with you. The QKDNY inventor was more skilled, but did not have sufficient inner power. Yet getting inner power is not the basis of QKDNY.
What about the music and art comparisons, though?
Edit: After all, inventing a move does not mean you are the most skilled at using the move.
Last edited by K2Grey; 08-22-06 at 12:33 AM.
Eh, I thought this skill was entirely internal energy-dependent. I mean it is said that normal people would take a lot longer to master just one level, whereas a guy with high internal energy would master the levels quickly.... right?Originally Posted by K2Grey
The guy who made the best Impressionist paintings --> because he actually made SOMETHING. He might have been inspired by the original inventor of Impressionist style (if there ever was one), and yet the original inventor no doubt also received inspirations from previous generations. Every artist receives inspirations and have to start somewhere.What about the music and art comparisons, though?
Who would you say has the better art skills, the person who invented the Impressionist style or the one who made the best Impressionist paintings?
I think both of your example are different from our discussion about martial arts, since Bach did actually compose his own music (note: this is an assumption, since I know nothing about classical music), whereas Wuji, Guo Jing, Murong Bo, Hong Qigong, Yideng etc did not compose their own moves. They simply USE arts created by others.Who would you say has better music skills, the guy who invented Baroque music (whoever he is) or J.S. Bach?
True. That's what I believe to be the difference between an artist and a fighter. The martial artist is the one who invents the art, while the fighter is the one who uses it. The artist, of course, can be the fighter who uses it most perfectly.Edit: After all, inventing a move does not mean you are the most skilled at using the move.
忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」
Meh, 25 years to combine all the great-level techniques into one of his own is impressive but hardly deserves the moniker of "ultimate".
Even ZBT managed to create his great-level Vacuum Fists in a shorter time. Martial art creation requires great martial art understanding, but the trait of a great martial artist is the understanding part.
One can be a great martial artist (and even the ultimate one) without creating martial arts if the understanding is deep and profound enough. The very nature of such great understanding would be that even pre-existing moves become filled with brilliance. The epitome would perhaps be the level when any move used is one full of intent and "usefulness" without any restriction despite not following a set stance.
Hardly. You need the high internal energy to even have a chance at mastering QKDNY, but the other less flashy reason ZWJ learned QKDNY so quickly is because of his medical background and intimate knowledge of the human body.Eh, I thought this skill was entirely internal energy-dependent. I mean it is said that normal people would take a lot longer to master just one level, whereas a guy with high internal energy would master the levels quickly.... right?
QKDNY isn't merely a technique or an internal energy script. It is a method to fully unlock the body's potential, to use one's body's abilities in ways not normally possible, to fully understand how the flow of energy works. This is why QKDNY is greater than most martial arts and is only surpassed by the greatest of the central plains' martial arts.
It is certainly an admissable argument that ZWJ exceeded the creator of QKDNY in terms of understanding. When ZWJ encountered the erroneous portions, his own understanding of the human body told him that it wasn't correct and couldn't be done. Because he was unable to resolve it, he omitted those steps and that turned out to be the correct solution. The erroneous parts were extraneous.
Last edited by ChronoReverse; 08-22-06 at 01:38 AM.
Yeaah.Originally Posted by PJ
..ext88
WOULD YOU MIND GETTING TO THE POINT AND DO AWAY WITH THE SARCASM EYE ROLLS?Originally Posted by Extremer88
忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」