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Thread: (warning:sensitive topic) Yang Guo, ze ultimate martial artist among the protagonists

  1. #21
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    Well, it seems to me that this is not a good analogy because science is primarily about discovering new things, and not about applying them. The process of applying some physics concept has more to do with engineering.

    Now, I suppose it is right to say that Einstein is greater than the engineer who put relativistic equations into GPS satellites, but martial arts are not necessarily ranked by the same criteria as applied physics.
    IMO,

    Scientist = Martial artist. --> discovery and refinement
    Engineer/Technologist = Fighter. --> application and execution
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  2. #22
    Senior Member patricia n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    The 2 roles do overlap greatly. Why would Jin Yong say that Zhang Sanfeng is the best martial artist in his universe, when there are possibly tens of other fighters that could potentially defeat this genius? I reckon it's largely because of his ability to INVENT new martial arts. This ability comes quite naturally to him. Surely the sweeper monk can best Zhang Sanfeng in a "fight" (tap, dead), and yet Jin Yong considers Zhang to be the better martial artist. Of course, the definition of a "good" martial artist can vary from reader to reader; my current opinion of a good martial artist (as opposed to a fighter) is mostly based on his/her expertise, which goes hand-in-hand with evidence of inventing new material.

    the retired expert Kenny once said something about just because a person who learns Einstein's equation can understand/use it as much as Eistein, does not mean the student is as good a scientist as Einstein. Because it took Einstein 100 times more effort to discover the equation. Of course, the student might later discover other new stuff, but that would be a different story. We're talking about an inventor vs a learner.

    In my opinion, inventing requires more expertise than executing. Great execution is by no means easy, but invention can be considered even more profound. In DGSD, Xiao Feng could execute ordinary stances to perfection. IMO That makes him a great fighter, but not necessarily a great martial artist. I wouldn't say that the guy who invented the ordinary Ancestor's Long Fist is a better martial artist, but people like Damo and the creator of the Ode to Gallantry art, definitely better martial artists.
    never once did i say that the two (being an inventor and being a great martial artist) are mutually exclusive. yes, they overlap but that does not mean they are one and the same.

    anyhow, i've disagreed with many of your posts before but never bothered to voice my opinion as i see that we are both set in our own ways...however, you have gone too far this time by suggesting that yg is the ultimate martial artist among the protagonist as you freely chose to neglect all other factors which make one a great martial artist and solely concentrate on yg's "brillance" at conjuring a new move and hence for that reason alone you find him the "best" martial artist.

    and i disagree that a martial artist and a fighter are completely different from one another as there is much overlap between the two, and i don't see how you could possibly categorize all the protagonists into either category as each and every single one of them is both a fighter and a martial artist. you are subjecting all fo us to your idea of what a martial artist is and i cannot accept that since your views are as biased as mine and it's obvious that we are not in agreement with much when it comes to yg.

    anyhow...i'm sure someone else can articulate my points better than i can and conjure a more convincing argument than me as to why yg is not and will never be considered the ultimate martial artist among the protagonist for many of us (since i've been doing such a poor job at it).
    Last edited by patricia n; 08-20-06 at 11:16 PM.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    Well, it seems to me that this is not a good analogy because science is primarily about discovering new things, and not about applying them. The process of applying some physics concept has more to do with engineering.

    Now, I suppose it is right to say that Einstein is greater than the engineer who put relativistic equations into GPS satellites, but martial arts are not necessarily ranked by the same criteria as applied physics.
    good engineers are also inventor, nay? the guy who created the GPS invented the GPS, but it doesn't mean he made the best GPS after all these years of refinement. however, you'd more likely to say that the GPS inventor is more "talented" than the GPS refiners, wouldn't you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
    good engineers are also inventor, nay? the guy who created the GPS invented the GPS, but it doesn't mean he made the best GPS after all these years of refinement. however, you'd more likely to say that the GPS inventor is more "talented" than the GPS refiners, wouldn't you?
    Not neccesary IMO. The GPS refiner could be of equal talent to the inventor except the inventor invented and was born eariler. However, if we are to compare a GPS Refiner and someone who doesn't do anything and only fully understands the GPS, then who is more talented?
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出一阳指功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的一阳指功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  5. #25
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    Not neccesary IMO. The GPS refiner could be of equal talent to the inventor except the inventor invented and was born eariler. However, if we are to compare a GPS Refiner and someone who doesn't do anything and only fully understands the GPS, then who is more talented?
    of course not necessarily, but if you were to put a bet on who has the more talent...then who would you put ur money on? and if you are to put money on a GPS "refiner" and someone who only builds the GPS according to the directions, then who would you bet on to have the better understanding for GPS? Then compare the one who builds GPS and the one that doesn't do anything...who has the better understanding? surely it's POSSIBLE for the one who does nothing to understand the physiology of GPS just as well as the one who "refines" or even "invents", but what are the chances of that?

    likewise, Einstein wasn't necessaily the smartest man on earth during his lifetime. There may be plenty of hidden geniuses out there in the world who may have done better than Einstein...just too bad they never got the chance to show off. hence, if you were to compare Einstein & that person, arn't you more likely to believe Einstein is the "smarter" guy?
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 08-21-06 at 01:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
    Firstly, ZWJ has been taught a basis in martial arts by Xie Xun, and has heard bits and pieces of 9 yang from ZSF...you can't claim that he entirely taught himself & thus is more talented. That's like saying XLN has the ultimate martial arts comprehension b/c she was able to decipher what LCY & WCY left in the ancient tomb walls (well, she could be for all we know...i do think she is considerably talented, but not necessarily to THAT extent). Not to mention YG also "taught himself" the HIS...unless u really consider the condor as a teacher...
    Xie Xun didn't really teach ZWJ martial arts, he just forced ZWJ to memorize everything. XX didn't bother to explain or show anything to ZWJ because there wasn't enough time. ZSF didn't really teach ZWJ martial arts either until ZWJ was all grown up when he returned to Wudang. While ZWJ wasn't completely unexposed to martial arts, I don't think it's unfair to say that ZWJ's training wasn't remotely close to the training that YG got from XLN and even OYF. Also, XLN and YG got to figure out together the things in the ancient tomb walls. In terms of the HIS, YG definately had help from the condor. The condor was the one who pushed YG to take the heavy sword and forced him to practice in the waterfalls, so I think that brother condor should definately get some credit.

    If you're going to claim that YG is more talented because he invented his own martial arts, then I think you also have to recognize that ZWJ reached the same level with much less training. Who do you think is more talented among two musicians who are equally good, one who was trained in Julliard and one who was self educated? I'm not saying that ZWJ is absolutely more talented, I just think that you can't just say that YG is more talented while ignoring the facts that show that someone like ZWJ is more talented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
    but like i said, there hardly is a definite answer on who is the more talent. Unlike GJ whom JY keeps bringing up how bad his comprehending ability is,
    Well, GJ's lack of comprehension is just on the surface. While GJ is not a fast thinker, he's not as stupid as he seems. GJ was able to contemplate martial arts from different angles and able to understand deeper concepts. Also, GJ had the talent to stay calm and learn much about martial arts in the midst of combat. I think JY tried to clarify the misconception about GJ's stupidity by using Z3F to explain that talent for martial arts had little to do with intelligence and Z3F specifically mentioned GJ as an example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
    but considering sad palms & one hand, i hardly doubt a two handed sad person cannot use it and i don't think the prime reason YG created it was for his handicap. afterall, GJ, ZBT, and XLN can all utilize two different stances in each hand, thus, proportionally, they are all using "one-handed" stances.
    YG had a move where the sleeve of his broken arm is used as a weapon which obviously can't be used by a nonhandicapped person. There's also another move where YG uses his torso to attack. While that torso move can be repeated by a nonhandicapped fighter, why would someone use the torso when another arm can be used? Two armed fighters can use the sad palms but the sad palms are obviously more suitable for a one armed fighter and can help negate the disadvantages of having one arm. Remember that fights between two high level fighters can be determined by a very small factor and having one less arm is obviously a pretty big disadvantage, so I don't think it's a stretch to think that YG created the Sad Palms to make up for his 1 arm disadvantage.

  7. #27
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    Well, I'd suppose that the sleeve could be used if one withdrew their arm from their sleeve. Although of course it's easier to just hit with that arm. And the torso move can be useful by a non-handicapped fighter because 1) its unusual and 2) it allows for unusual defensive options since now you can match your torso against someone else's palm, which will shock the other guy to say the least.

    Now that I think about it, if "Out of Nothing" has a torso hit and a headbutt, I wonder if it also has a hit with the butt or something like that :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    Well, I'd suppose that the sleeve could be used if one withdrew their arm from their sleeve. Although of course it's easier to just hit with that arm. And the torso move can be useful by a non-handicapped fighter because 1) its unusual and 2) it allows for unusual defensive options since now you can match your torso against someone else's palm, which will shock the other guy to say the least.

    Now that I think about it, if "Out of Nothing" has a torso hit and a headbutt, I wonder if it also has a hit with the butt or something like that :P
    Only someone like ZBT would be crazy enough to withdraw the arm and then hit with the sleeve. Now that you mention it, it would have been really funny if JY had shown how crazy WBT was about martial arts by having ZBT cut off an arm to learn YG"s sad palms.

    I doubt that YG had a butt stomp move since he was supposed to be slender and probably had a small butt.

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    Having a small butt has nothing to do with anything...He just needs to bend his waist.

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    Now that I think about it, this reminds me of the Drunken Master movie where at the end when Jackie Chan fights the end villain, he goes through the martial arts of various past drunken masters and is defeated. Then the villain tells JC to bring out the martial arts of Lady Ho, which JC actually doesn't know, so he makes up various moves including a butt smash.

  11. #31
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patricia n
    never once did i say that the two (being an inventor and being a great martial artist) are mutually exclusive. yes, they overlap but that does not mean they are one and the same.
    OK.

    anyhow, i've disagreed with many of your posts before but never bothered to voice my opinion as i see that we are both set in our own ways...
    Everyone is free to express his/her opinion on this forum. If you don't agree with me then feel free to express your perspective. Only through evidence-based discussion can we improve our knowledge as readers and fans of wuxia. However If you choose not to have your voice be heard then that is your choice.

    however, you have gone too far this time by suggesting that yg is the ultimate martial artist among the protagonist as you freely chose to neglect all other factors which make one a great martial artist and solely concentrate on yg's "brillance" at conjuring a new move and hence for that reason alone you find him the "best" martial artist.
    I'll cut right to the point: what ALL OTHER FACTORS? Keep in mind that Jin Yong intended Zhang Sanfeng to be the greatest martial artist of all, and he is mostly known for the martial arts that he CREATED.

    Anyway, who in your opinion qualifies as the ultimate martial artist among the protagonists?

    and i disagree that a martial artist and a fighter are completely different from one another as there is much overlap between the two,
    Just as you claim to not have mutually excluded inventor and martial artist, do note that neither did I mutually exclude fighter and martial artist.

    and i don't see how you could possibly categorize all the protagonists into either category as each and every single one of them is both a fighter and a martial artist.
    I never categorized all the protagonists into one and only one category.

    you are subjecting all fo us to your idea of what a martial artist is and i cannot accept that
    First of all, it's not like I am declaring a fact. This is a discussion after all. I keep saying IMO (in my opinion) this, IMO that, to signify that it is only an opinion.

    Secondly, I did explain my reason for my definition of martial artist (Jin Yong's comments about Zhang Sanfeng). I am by no means one who worships Yang Guo. I just wanted to point out a unique characteristic of his achievement. The reason that I talk mostly about Yang Guo, Shi Potian and Xiao Feng among the protagonists is due to my limited knowledge of the other protagonists.

    since your views are as biased as mine and it's obvious that we are not in agreement with much when it comes to yg.
    I don't know anything about your opinions of Yang Guo.

    anyhow...i'm sure someone else can articulate my points better than i can and conjure a more convincing argument than me as to why yg is not and will never be considered the ultimate martial artist among the protagonist for many of us (since i've been doing such a poor job at it).
    Sounds like you are already biased towards Yang Guo's character. However please keep in mind that it is best to come into a discussion with somewhat of an open mind. Not accusing you of any particular bias (since again, I am unaware of your opinions of him), but I want to make it clear that we are talking about Yang Guo as a martial artist. We are not talking about whether we like him or not. If I have offended you in any way in the past, it was not my intention and I hereby apologise.

    I will reply to your earlier post in my next post.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    oh.... trust me Patriaca hates YG and is biased toward him.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出一阳指功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的一阳指功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  13. #33
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patricia n
    despite the arguments suggesting that yg is the ultimate martial artist among the protagonists, i have a hard time conceiving this at all simply because i feel that martial art talent encompasses more than just "inventing" a new martial arts.
    IMO, "the level that one has reached in (attaining/performing) martial arts" is not the same as "how good of a martial artist one is." I realize that my wording is terrible so many apologies in advance.

    while i agree that in order to invent a new skill, one would have to have a great understanding of martial arts, that does not suggest that the new skill would be the best
    The new skill might not be better than an existing one; however what the inventor has accomplished, is experimenting, discovering and formulating a new art to express himself/herself, because the currently existing arts do not match his/her personality and/or needs. That in my opinion is a great achievement that cannot be compared to simply learning an art handed down to you, created by others, and the hardest part is already done for you (in most cases).

    Please note the artist component in the words "Martial Artist." According to DICTIONARY.COM, the first 2 definitions of "artist" are:

    1. One ... who is able by virtue of imagination and talent or skill to create works of aesthetic value....

    2. A person whose work shows exceptional creative ability or skill

    Accordingly, the role of a martial artist is heavily linked to the ability to create new forms of art.

    Now, we may never agree on the definition of exactly what constitute a good martial artist; however I wanted to share with you my reasons for my definition.

    plus, given the fact that yg has to be an emotional wreck in order to wreak havoc, i find it more difficult to grasp that he could be the "ultimate martial artist" as i personally find that one who demonstrates consistency in his performance to be superior to one who has to rely on his emotion to execute his signature move.
    Well, then do you consider Yideng to be a better martial artist than Ouyang Feng? Since Yideng's art is relatively safe to practice while Ouyang Feng's Toad methods are extremely dangerous.

    In my opinion, creativity/originality/imagination is one of the most important aspects of judging how good a martial artist is (as suggested by dictionary's definition of "artist"). Along with how effective the art is of course. As far as this criterion (originality), I do not consider learning an art handed-down by previous generations to be on par with creating a new art, even if the new art is most hazardous, because the artist proved that he could stand on his own when faced with the delimma of not having any style that suited him. If they did not have access to any arts that suited them, what would Wuji, Yideng, Hong Qigong, Xiao Feng, and Guo Jing do? Maybe they can invent something of their own, but we don't know that for sure.

    hence, i would put zwj at a much higher level than yg. though zwj never invented his own move, i would not look down on that. many of the arguments against zwj being an awesome fighter is because of his advantage in knowing qkdly and 9 yang but so what? hasn't yg also the advantage of learning dugu's techniques and eating the snake's gallbladder? why are his fans claiming that it's fair for yg to have this advantage but cry foul when zwj has his own luck with martial arts?
    I think you were still mainly talking about execution, while I'm talking about invention. Execution is the role of a fighter while invention is the role of a martial artist. A martial artist is usually also a fighter of course, but that just means they have dual roles. A good martial artist doesn't have to be a good fighter (think of the creators of Qiankun Danuoyi and Dragon Elephant Prana, who had great visions but couldn't actually master their own art), and a good fighter isn't necessarily a good martial artist (think of Aobai).

    Example: earlier I compared a martial artist to a scientist, while a fighter to a engineer/technologist. I know some computer science students who have trouble setting up anti-virus and firewall software on their computer... and yet those kinds of software is what they learn to create in class! So being able to create something does not mean one can apply it well in reality. And certainly, applying it well does not at all mean one has the ability to create it.

    My point is: being good at executing pre-existing styles is not really a qualification for a good martist. That's why I think there is a major difference between a martial artist, and a fighter.

    again, just because one invents a move does not make him superior
    It doesn't make him superior in actual combat (as a fighter), but (you already know) IMO it makes him a more competent martial artist.

    ...unless that new skill has been shown to be much superior than all else around and the execution of that move is not dependent on many factors. yg is good, i'll admit that much but to label him as the ultimate is stretching it tooooo much. if you argue for potential than that is a moot point since that's left entirely to our imagination. and in my mind, zwj's potential surpasses yg's by far.
    I do not think the new style needs to be better than the existing one in order to consider the new style creator as a superior artist.

    PJ
    Last edited by PJ; 08-21-06 at 11:54 PM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Who would you say has the better art skills, the person who invented the Impressionist style or the one who made the best Impressionist paintings? Who would you say has better music skills, the guy who invented Baroque music (whoever he is) or J.S. Bach? Who is the superior Qiankun Danuoyist, the guy who invented QKDNY or ZWJ?

    I would go with the second guy in all cases.

  15. #35
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    In the case of Qiankun Danuoyi, for me the inventor is clearly the superior artist. He actually came up with the vision, the foundation, the concept to make it work, only he didn't have enough internal energy to actually practice it to perfection. Zhang Wuji had the benefit of 9 Yang internal energy; that's why he could learn Qiankun D so fast.

    All artists must first learn their trade from others. Later on they will go on to produce artwork of their own. However at this point Wuji is not much of an artist yet, in my humble opinion.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    OK, upon consideration I would agree with you. The QKDNY inventor was more skilled, but did not have sufficient inner power. Yet getting inner power is not the basis of QKDNY.

    What about the music and art comparisons, though?

    Edit: After all, inventing a move does not mean you are the most skilled at using the move.
    Last edited by K2Grey; 08-22-06 at 12:33 AM.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    Yet getting inner power is not the basis of QKDNY.
    Eh, I thought this skill was entirely internal energy-dependent. I mean it is said that normal people would take a lot longer to master just one level, whereas a guy with high internal energy would master the levels quickly.... right?

    What about the music and art comparisons, though?

    Who would you say has the better art skills, the person who invented the Impressionist style or the one who made the best Impressionist paintings?
    The guy who made the best Impressionist paintings --> because he actually made SOMETHING. He might have been inspired by the original inventor of Impressionist style (if there ever was one), and yet the original inventor no doubt also received inspirations from previous generations. Every artist receives inspirations and have to start somewhere.

    Who would you say has better music skills, the guy who invented Baroque music (whoever he is) or J.S. Bach?
    I think both of your example are different from our discussion about martial arts, since Bach did actually compose his own music (note: this is an assumption, since I know nothing about classical music), whereas Wuji, Guo Jing, Murong Bo, Hong Qigong, Yideng etc did not compose their own moves. They simply USE arts created by others.

    Edit: After all, inventing a move does not mean you are the most skilled at using the move.
    True. That's what I believe to be the difference between an artist and a fighter. The martial artist is the one who invents the art, while the fighter is the one who uses it. The artist, of course, can be the fighter who uses it most perfectly.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Meh, 25 years to combine all the great-level techniques into one of his own is impressive but hardly deserves the moniker of "ultimate".

    Even ZBT managed to create his great-level Vacuum Fists in a shorter time. Martial art creation requires great martial art understanding, but the trait of a great martial artist is the understanding part.

    One can be a great martial artist (and even the ultimate one) without creating martial arts if the understanding is deep and profound enough. The very nature of such great understanding would be that even pre-existing moves become filled with brilliance. The epitome would perhaps be the level when any move used is one full of intent and "usefulness" without any restriction despite not following a set stance.

    Eh, I thought this skill was entirely internal energy-dependent. I mean it is said that normal people would take a lot longer to master just one level, whereas a guy with high internal energy would master the levels quickly.... right?
    Hardly. You need the high internal energy to even have a chance at mastering QKDNY, but the other less flashy reason ZWJ learned QKDNY so quickly is because of his medical background and intimate knowledge of the human body.

    QKDNY isn't merely a technique or an internal energy script. It is a method to fully unlock the body's potential, to use one's body's abilities in ways not normally possible, to fully understand how the flow of energy works. This is why QKDNY is greater than most martial arts and is only surpassed by the greatest of the central plains' martial arts.


    It is certainly an admissable argument that ZWJ exceeded the creator of QKDNY in terms of understanding. When ZWJ encountered the erroneous portions, his own understanding of the human body told him that it wasn't correct and couldn't be done. Because he was unable to resolve it, he omitted those steps and that turned out to be the correct solution. The erroneous parts were extraneous.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 08-22-06 at 01:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Eh, I thought this skill was entirely internal energy-dependent. I mean it is said that normal people would take a lot longer to master just one level, whereas a guy with high internal energy would master the levels quickly.... right?
    Yeaah.
    ..ext88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Extremer88
    Yeaah.
    WOULD YOU MIND GETTING TO THE POINT AND DO AWAY WITH THE SARCASM EYE ROLLS?
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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