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Thread: (warning:sensitive topic) Yang Guo, ze ultimate martial artist among the protagonists

  1. #41
    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    WOULD YOU MIND GETTING TO THE POINT AND DO AWAY WITH THE SARCASM EYE ROLLS?
    Alright, alright... Hey, I wasn't being sarcastic here..
    ..ext88

  2. #42
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    Meh, 25 years to combine all the great-level techniques into one of his own is impressive but hardly deserves the moniker of "ultimate".

    Even ZBT managed to create his great-level Vacuum Fists in a shorter time.
    Uh huh. I did say this, you know: he should be the only protagonist who created his own martial arts system...And he even did it within the novel's scope. How many people have done that, out of every character in Jin Yong universe? OTTOMH (off the top of my head) I can only think of Zhang Sanfeng and maybe Zuo Lengchan (I'm sure there are others, but probably only a few more). Most of the martial arts were invented OFF SCREEN, before or after the novel's scope. Yang Guo actually invented a martial arts during the story. I think that he may be, chronologically, the first person in Jin Yong universe that we see achieve this in the story.

    Martial art creation requires great martial art understanding, but the trait of a great martial artist is the understanding part.
    If understanding is more important than creation, then why would Jin Yong say that Zhang Sanfeng is the ultimate martial artist in his universe? Does Zhang really have better understanding of martial arts than the sweeper monk?

    One can be a great martial artist (and even the ultimate one) without creating martial arts if the understanding is deep and profound enough.
    Sure. But if you understand AND create, that's even more profound, don't you think?

    The very nature of such great understanding would be that even pre-existing moves become filled with brilliance. The epitome would perhaps be the level when any move used is one full of intent and "usefulness" without any restriction despite not following a set stance.
    Yes, something like that. However as I said before, [understanding + creating] > understanding.

    It is certainly an admissable argument that ZWJ exceeded the creator of QKDNY in terms of understanding. When ZWJ encountered the erroneous portions, his own understanding of the human body told him that it wasn't correct and couldn't be done. Because he was unable to resolve it, he omitted those steps and that turned out to be the correct solution. The erroneous parts were extraneous.
    That's an interesting point. But still, Wuji was taking advantage of the foundation built by the original inventor. Example: who can be considered the better scientist, the person who discovered an equation with some errors, or the guy who later corrected it? The later guy might not have been able to even reach the earlier guy's level of discovery if the earlier guy didn't invent the erronous material, so I don't know.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  3. #43
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Sure. But if you understand AND create, that's even more profound, don't you think?
    I think these are two separate things, and should not be lumped together for consideration.

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    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    If understanding is more important than creation, then why would Jin Yong say that Zhang Sanfeng is the ultimate martial artist in his universe? Does Zhang really have better understanding of martial arts than the sweeper monk?
    I think Sweeps is cooler. ZSF went into seclusion many times during his time at Wudang - he wanted to be alone, quiet to try and understand and dig out the whole 9Yang concept, but he was only able to understand 30-40 percent of the 9Yang after so many years -- duh, 85 years. How long does the creator of 9Yang used to create 9Yang. Does that even mean that the creator of the 9Yang have better understanding of martial arts than ZSF?
    ..ext88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    I think these are two separate things, and should not be lumped together for consideration.
    OK, again, the first 2 definitions of an artist (as in: martial artist) are:

    1. One ... who is able by virtue of imagination and talent or skill to create works of aesthetic value....

    2. A person whose work shows exceptional creative ability or skill

    source: dictionary.com

    We are talking about what qualities constitute a good martial artist. I proposed that the most important aspect is the evidence of CREATION/INVENTION/ORIGINALITY (which encompasses the "understanding" aspect that Chrono proposed). And apparently, my thinking is semi-supported by the definitions from dictionary.com.

    I might be completely wrong this time, and I could change my mind next week. However I just felt compelled to explain my thoughts on this issue, which I have tried to make as evidence-based as possible.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    OK, again, the first 2 definitions of an artist (as in: martial artist) are:

    1. One ... who is able by virtue of imagination and talent or skill to create works of aesthetic value....

    2. A person whose work shows exceptional creative ability or skill

    source: dictionary.com

    We are talking about what qualities constitute a good martial artist. I proposed that the most important aspect is the evidence of CREATION/INVENTION/ORIGINALITY (which encompasses the "understanding" aspect that Chrono proposed). And apparently, my thinking is semi-supported by the definitions from dictionary.com.
    That's all well and good; I just don't see what's so especially exceptional about Yeung Gor's martial artistry compared to those of others such as East Heretic Wong Yerk See, West Poison Au Yeung Fung, Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung, Ancient Tomb Sect Founder Lam Chiu Ying, Central Mischief Chow Bak Tung, and Mo Dong Sect Founder Cheung 3 Fung. Sad Palms was great, but it wasn't necessarily better than any of the martial arts created by any of these other folks.

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    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    source: dictionary.com
    Hmm, hehe.
    ..ext88

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extremer88
    I think Sweeps is cooler. ZSF went into seclusion many times during his time at Wudang - he wanted to be alone, quiet to try and understand and dig out the whole 9Yang concept, but he was only able to understand 30-40 percent of the 9Yang after so many years -- duh, 85 years. How long does the creator of 9Yang used to create 9Yang. Does that even mean that the creator of the 9Yang have better understanding of martial arts than ZSF?
    When Jin Yong said that Zhang Sanfeng is the best martial artist in his universe, I quite frankly do not think that he meant Zhang Sanfeng has the best understanding of martial arts. I interpret it as such: given the circumstances, Zhang Sanfeng did the best out of everybody in his universe. In other words, if Sweeper Monk (or anyone else besides Zhang) were to never learn martial arts properly, he could not have thrived to the same extent as Zhang Sanfeng.

    And still, I think that Zhang Sanfeng's ability to create new arts have a lot to do with Jin Yong labeling him the ultimate martial artist.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  9. #49
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    That's all well and good; I just don't see what's so especially exceptional about Yeung Gor's martial artistry compared to those of others such as East Heretic Wong Yerk See, West Poison Au Yeung Fung, Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung, Ancient Tomb Sect Founder Lam Chiu Ying, Central Mischief Chow Bak Tung, and Mo Dong Sect Founder Cheung 3 Fung. Sad Palms was great, but it wasn't necessarily better than any of the martial arts created by any of these other folks.
    Yes, Yang Guo is nothing special compared to Huang, Wang, Ouyang, or Lin, I completely agree with that. BUT PLEASE NOTE, I DID SAY AMONG THE PROTAGONISTS.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    BUT PLEASE NOTE, I DID SAY [B]AMONG THE PROTAGONISTS.
    All right, but is there anything particularly noteworthy about narrowing down the field in this manner other than...well, narrowing down the field in this manner?

    Given that the other protagonists didn't invent much of anything, is there even anything worth comparing here?

  11. #51
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    All right, but is there anything particularly noteworthy about narrowing down the field in this manner other than...well, narrowing down the field in this manner?
    As stated previously to patricia, I just wanted to show a unique characteristic of Yang Guo that I think makes him special .... (and of course, stir up some sensitive controversy along the way. after all, no one who's been here long enough, in their right mind, would expect no controversy after starting a topic about Yang guo.)

    But I am glad to be discussing about which qualities people consider to constitute a good martial artist. It's these relavent debates that force me to re-evaluate my opinions and think some more.[/QUOTE]
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  12. #52
    Senior Member Bangs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    That's all well and good; I just don't see what's so especially exceptional about Yeung Gor's martial artistry compared to those of others such as East Heretic Wong Yerk See, West Poison Au Yeung Fung, Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung, Ancient Tomb Sect Founder Lam Chiu Ying, Central Mischief Chow Bak Tung, and Mo Dong Sect Founder Cheung 3 Fung. Sad Palms was great, but it wasn't necessarily better than any of the martial arts created by any of these other folks.
    Well YG was able to match a great's level in his 30's isn't that exceptional?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangs
    Well YG was able to match a great's level in his 30's isn't that exceptional?
    It is, but Gwok Jing and Kiu Fung did the same, and Cheung Mo Gei did even better by getting there in his twenties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    It is, but Gwok Jing and Kiu Fung did the same, and Cheung Mo Gei did even better by getting there in his twenties.
    You said it yourself, what he did is exceptional, that answers your previous question. Doesn't matter if 1 or 2 people did better than him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangs
    You said it yourself, what he did is exceptional, that answers your previous question. Doesn't matter if 1 or 2 people did better than him.
    PJ doesn't want "exceptional," though; he wants "ultimate," and I grant Yeung Gor "ultimate" nothing except maybe "ultimate annoyer."

    I take that back: however bad Yeung Gor is, Little Dragon Girl is always worse...and don't get me started on Lam Chiu Ying or late-phase Chow Chi Yerk.

  16. #56
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    PJ doesn't want "exceptional," though; he wants "ultimate," and I grant Yeung Gor "ultimate" nothing except maybe "ultimate annoyer."
    Then who in your opinion is the ultimate martial artist among the protagonists?

    I ask this question to every forum reader.

    And I repeat: we are talking about characters as MARTIAL ARTSIST here, not their personality or any other quality. So don't deny his achievement in the ARTS just because you find his character annoying. I sort of like Yang Guo and I just made a post about his Heavy Iron Sword stage seemingly inferior to Duan Yanqing's level a few days ago.
    Last edited by PJ; 08-22-06 at 07:04 PM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Then who in your opinion is the ultimate martial artist among the protagonists?

    I ask this question to every forum reader.

    And I repeat: we are talking about characters as MARTIAL ARTSIST here, not their personality or any other quality. So don't deny his achievement in the ARTS just because you find his character annoying. I sort of like Yang Guo and I just made a post about his Heavy Iron Sword stage seemingly inferior to Duan Yanqing's level a few days ago.
    Like I've been saying in this thread, a good case can be made about ZWJ because he made it to an elite level mostly through teaching himself martial arts. What ZWJ did is like someone becoming a physics PH.D through reading textbooks by himself for several years. I haven't read Ode to Gallantry but didn't SPT also became a Superman like figure mostly without instruction?

    GJ and XF should also be strongly considered as they were able to modify a martial arts that was nearly perfect. Just because GJ and XF "only" modified their martial arts and didn't create their own martial arts, it doesn't mean that they're any less talented than YG. Keep in mind that XL18 palms were already well known for several hundred years to be the most powerful palms in Wulin, and there was really no need for XF and GJ to create something new. YG was handicapped and very likely his previous martial arts were no longer fully compatible for him and therefore had a greater need to get a style which fits him. As great as YG's sad palms are, I would think they are still inferior to XL18 palms because so many great martial artists contributed to XL18 and XL18 has a long reputation for being very dominant. The sadness requirement of the sad palms is one example of a weakness in the sad palms compared to XL18.

    I liken the accomplisments of GJ/XF to a musician who is able to somehow improve a Symphony of Beethoven. Improving something classical that is almost nearly perfect has to be close in difficulty to creating something new that might not be nearly as good as the classic.

  18. #58
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi
    Like I've been saying in this thread, a good case can be made about ZWJ because he made it to an elite level mostly through teaching himself martial arts. What ZWJ did is like someone becoming a physics PH.D through reading textbooks by himself for several years.
    Right. That makes him a great STUDENT. Wuji was like a PhD student who has yet to write a dissertation/thesis. And, like I've stated twice in the past, the definition of an artist or a scientist is heavily associated with the ability to CREATE. Wuji didn't create anything yet so I do not consider him a great martial artist yet.

    Again, Zhang Sanfeng is considered the best martial artist by JIN YONG himself, chiefly because, I think, of his ability to create awesome new martial arts.

    GJ and XF should also be strongly considered as they were able to modify a martial arts that was nearly perfect.
    I do give Guo Jing a lot of credit for incorporating softness into Dragon Palms. He is probably the next great martial artist after Yang Guo, IMO. However, the part about Xiao Feng modifying Dragon Palms is in edition 3 and I am trying to concentrate all the facts based on edition 2. But even if we consider the fact that Xiao Feng modified DP from 28 palms to 18 palms, first of all he did it with the help of another person. Secondly, did it really help the art that much? The art became more efficient to learn, I suppose. But that is hardly as impressive as coming up with an altogether new art like the Sad Palms.

    Keep in mind that XL18 palms were already well known for several hundred years to be the most powerful palms in Wulin, and there was really no need for XF and GJ to create something new.
    OK. For Guo Jing, it wasn't really a choice. It was a logical progression after having practiced 9 Yin, which is a soft skill (I think). All that he did is apply 9 Yin's power to Dragon Palms. He would have applied 9 Yin the same way to any art that he might have otherwise learned. As for Xiao Feng, I haven't read the third edition so I don't know.

    YG was handicapped and very likely his previous martial arts were no longer fully compatible for him and therefore had a greater need to get a style which fits him.
    The important factor is that Yang Guo proved that he can invent something new when faced with this delimma. Guo Jing/Xiao Feng/Zhang Wuji didn't, yet.

    As great as YG's sad palms are, I would think they are still inferior to XL18 palms because so many great martial artists contributed to XL18 and XL18 has a long reputation for being very dominant.
    Dragon Palms could have deterioated between DGSD to LOCH. We didn't quite see the Xiao Feng-esque fierocity displayed in LOCH. I don't see any evidence to suggest that Sad Palms < L/ROCH Dragon Palms.

    The sadness requirement of the sad palms is one example of a weakness in the sad palms compared to XL18.
    Not really. Sad Palm at its subpar level is already at least equal to the Greats (except maybe Guo Jing), as proven by Yang Guo's encounters with Huang Yaoshi, Zhou Botong, and Golden Wheel Monk. So you can't say that Sad Palm is weak without the ultimate sadness. At its highest level, Sad Palm > the Greats (again, except Guo Jing since it's so damn hard to gauge his actual level).

    I liken the accomplisments of GJ/XF to a musician who is able to somehow improve a Symphony of Beethoven. Improving something classical that is almost nearly perfect has to be close in difficulty to creating something new that might not be nearly as good as the classic.
    OK, but it's not the case that Sad Palm is inferior to any other Great-level martial art , at least not in the power released. In fact most evidences suggest Sad Palms > other Great-level martial arts.

    EDIT:

    After some pondering, I think that your post has provided a good alternative perspective, which got me thinking some more.

    Just because GJ and XF "only" modified their martial arts and didn't create their own martial arts, it doesn't mean that they're any less talented than YG.
    I'm not saying that they are less talented than Yang Guo OVERALL. Xiao Feng is a more talented fighter than the other 2. However as a martial artist, I think he is below Yang Guo, according to the second edition.

    One thing I admit is that I take Zhang Sanfeng as the ultimate figure of a martial artist. What was he like and what did he do? He learned incomplete martial arts and was able to create brand new martial arts from scratch. Well, Yang Guo's case is more similar to Zhang Sanfeng's than Xiao Feng or Guo Jing. Yang Guo learned bits and pieces of many martial arts but he never mastered any of them. Whereas Guo Jing and Yang Guo actually mastered some Great-level martial arts. Yang Guo then created his own martial art, just like Zhang Sanfeng did, whereas Guo Jing and Yang Guo didn't. Since Yang Guo resembles the ultimate martial artist Zhang Sanfeng in many ways, it is easy to think of Yang Guo as fitting the definition of a better martial artist according to (my interpretation of ) Jin Yong's intentions.
    Last edited by PJ; 08-23-06 at 12:45 AM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  19. #59
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    In fact most evidences suggest Sad Palms > other Great-level martial arts.
    Not really. The only "Great" that the Sad Palms ever outright defeated was the hapless Golden Wheel Monk, and we all know about his issues.

    I'm not sure that I agree with the basic premise of this entire question. It's basically set up in a manner that the conclusion is foregone. If you define "ultimate martial artist" only as one who invents a brand, spanking-new martial art with a new name, and then further limit the parameters to protagonist, then who could it be other than Yeung Gor? Is there anything even worth debating or discussing? It would be kind of like starting a thread, "Who among the Jin Yong protagonists is the best Mongolian wrestler and archer?" or "Who among the Jin Yong protagonists had the greatest fight at Tsui Yin Manor?" The parameters of the discussion themselves limit discussion possibilities because it forces debaters into a pre-determined conclusion.

    We once had a thread: "Who's more handsome - Yeung Gor or Gwok Jing?" Well, DUH.

    I'm just don't see the point in topics wherein the conclusion is already foregone in the question setup.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Not really. The only "Great" that the Sad Palms ever outright defeated was the hapless Golden Wheel Monk, and we all know about his issues.
    Not true.

    It was stated during the fight with Golden Wheel Monk that Yang Guo was not previously able to release the maximum power of Sad Palm. So, when he fought Huang Yaoshi, Zhou Botong and Golden Wheel Monk at first, he was only using a SUBPAR version of Sad Palm. And this subpar version already got Golden Wheel Monk scared. Needless to mention again, the maximum version crushed Golden Wheel Monk. It's only logical that the maximum level of Sad Palm would exceed the limits of Zhou Botong, Huang Yaoshi, Yideng, etc.

    I'm not sure that I agree with the basic premise of this entire question.
    That's because you hate Yang Guo (which you admit outright, so I don't think there's any need to not bring up), so you hesitate/refuse to acknowledge his accomplishment.

    It's basically set up in a manner that the conclusion is foregone.
    But I wasn't really asking a question. I admit that I was trying to express an opinion. And Now we are having discussions on exactly what constitute a good martial artist.

    If you define "ultimate martial artist" only as one who invents a brand, spanking-new martial art with a new name, and then further limit the parameters to protagonist, then who could it be other than Yeung Gor? Is there anything even worth debating or discussing?
    Apparently it is worth discussing, since there have been plenty of discussions and many disagreements already.

    It would be kind of like starting a thread, "Who among the Jin Yong protagonists is the best Mongolian wrestler and archer?"
    First of all, EVERY PROTAGONIST in the Jin Yong universe is a martial artist. Only one protagonist in the Jin Yong universe (out of the major novels that I know of anyway) is Mongolian. It's not ricidulous to point out that Yang Guo has achieved something unique. And there are other candidates worth considering, like Guo Jing and maybe even Shi Potian. On the other hand your proposed topic would only have one candidate to begin with.

    or "Who among the Jin Yong protagonists had the greatest fight at Tsui Yin Manor?"
    Come on now.

    The parameters of the discussion themselves limit discussion possibilities because it forces debaters into a pre-determined conclusion.
    Look, if somebody started a topic called "Zhang Sanfeng: the ultimate artist among the Greats." And then proposed a definition of a good martial artist, Would you have as much problem with that?
    Last edited by PJ; 08-23-06 at 12:58 AM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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