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Thread: (warning:sensitive topic) Yang Guo, ze ultimate martial artist among the protagonists

  1. #81
    Senior Member MysteriouX's Avatar
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    In GL universe, Shen Lang was considered the best swordsman to have ever lived and we get to know his story, but in JY DGQB is considered the best swordsman ever and we don't get to know his story. And some people consider YG to be the best martial artist (best martial artist doesn't necessarrilly mean best swordsman) in JY universe.

    Now how would people compare

    Shen Lang vs DGQB or YG ?

    I also believe that YG could (there is a big chance) be defeated by LXH with his flying daggers, because the legend about LXH is that '...once released, his daggers never miss...'.

    In GL universe, the reason why people like SGJH, LXH, YGC, XMXC all became powerful was because they concentrated fully on one particular skill or weapon mastering them inside out instead of trying to learn as many skills and possible and becomming Jacks of All Trades.

    In JY, the common reason why people like YG, GJ, XF and others become powerful is because they studied different skills and combined them to be even more powerful.

    So I wonder, who IS (or can be considered by Wuxia fans) to be the most powerful martial artist from all Wuxia novels (including JY, GL and other writers.)

  2. #82
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    I'd say Sweeper Monk from JY is the god of both books.

    Some say Xiao Yiao Huo is the best in Gu Long's set. And I personally feel Sweeper is above Xiao Yiao Huo.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出一阳指功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的一阳指功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  3. #83
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    I'm really sick of this. YG's Sad Palms needs melancholy to function at 100%. Being super sad does not make it function at 150% or even 101%.
    When I used the term SAD, I meant to include every sad-related state of mind. Melancholy is included. The technique is translated as SAD Palms so I just said sad for general convenience reasons. I don't think we're actually disagreeing on anything.

    Being in a state of melancholy the entire 16 years meant his palms were powerful the entire time.
    Not the entire time, but at the moment when he perfected the palms. I mean he couldn't have been at the same level of power all 16 years. He must have improved gradually.

    Both ZBT and HYS (geniuses that most certainly have good judgement of a martial art) were astounded at the power and exquisiteness of Sad Palms. There is simply NO possibility that Sad Palms was performing at much below optimal at this point.
    I did say subpar which means anywhere below the highest level.

    Here is why:

    Yet when YG tried using Sad Palms against GWM, it utterly failed. It wasn't impressive at all in fact.
    OK

    This was the same palm technique that had ZBT (who easily can neutralize GWM's power although it was impossible for ZBT to inflict injury back) scrambling to defend.
    Are you sure? I think that Zhou Botong had a EASIER time with Sad Palms than Golden Wheel Monk, and the latter I'm talking about is with the subpar version of Sad Palms. Zhou Botong was almost getting the upper hand against Yang Guo, although I admit Yang Guo might not have been using Sad Palms at first. Even when Yang Guo certainly used Sad Palms against Zhou, by that time it had become a pure contest of martial arts with no danger involved. How can you say that Zhou was scrambling to defend.

    GWM had ZERO trouble with it and was inflicting wound after wound on YG.
    That's just not true. Golden Wheel Monk knew that he was going to lose eventually so that's why he resorted to trickery. So Yang Guo's subpar level of Sad Palms is still superior to Golden Wheel Monk WITH WEAPONS!

    GWM would've won and been able to get off the burning platform.
    He could have killed Guo Jing too 16 years ago.... by cheating! So what's your point?

    But a martial artist isn't someone who creates martial arts. The more normal definition of this singular expression (not just martial and not just artist, but "martial artist") is someone who practices martial arts.
    And for the 9999th time, if your definition is correct THEN WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK THAT JIN YONG SAY ZHANG SANFENG IS THE BEST MARTIAL ARTIST, WHEN THIS SAME JIN YONG CLEARLY ESTABLISHED XIAO FENG AS THE GREATEST PRACTIONER OF MARTIAL ARTS, SAYING THAT HE COULD DEFEAT PEOPLE WITH BETTER INTERNAL ENERGY AND BETTER TECHNIQUE AND ALL? I MEAN FOR GOD'S SAKE, XIAO FENG REACHED THE SAME LEVEL OR BETTER THAN ZHANG SANFENG AT 70 YEARS YOUNGER!! I HOPE YOU HAVE AN EXPLANATION.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    And for the 9999th time, if your definition is correct THEN WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK THAT JIN YONG SAY ZHANG SANFENG IS THE BEST MARTIAL ARTIST, WHEN THIS SAME JIN YONG CLEARLY ESTABLISHED XIAO FENG AS THE GREATEST PRACTIONER OF MARTIAL ARTS, SAYING THAT HE COULD DEFEAT PEOPLE WITH BETTER INTERNAL ENERGY AND BETTER TECHNIQUE AND ALL? I MEAN FOR GOD'S SAKE, XIAO FENG REACHED THE SAME LEVEL OR BETTER THAN ZHANG SANFENG AT 70 YEARS YOUNGER!! I HOPE YOU HAVE AN EXPLANATION.
    I'm not picking a side here but I've noticed that it's hard to convince someone to believe in something he/she didn't originally believe in, even if JY himeself said it specifically. For example, JY said that YG's sword skills weren't very good but tons of people still try to rationalize how YG 's sword skills are at the pinnacle of swordsmanship and beyond LHC's "rudimentary" DG9J stage. Also, did JY explain why he thought that Z3F or XF were so great? Perhaps you too just interpret his statements differently. I mean, if JY never said why Z3F or XF were so great, it's really hard to know for sure what he meant.

  5. #85
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    I would think that when JY answered the question of 'Who was the best martial artist', he was only thinking of his main characters with reasonable speaking lines. Not plot devices like Sweeper Monk or Dugu or the 9 Yang Inventor or Damo.
    Sure, that makes some sense, but here is what I really think about this Zhang Sanfeng being the best martial artist deal.

    First of all, we know that Zhang Sanfeng never learned martial arts properly. His "teacher" didn't know martial arts either, strictly speaking.

    And yet Zhang Sanfeng was able to create many sophisticated martial arts. He would observe nature and come up with a new style. Highly impressive for someone who didn't study martial arts properly. With Taiji, Jin Yong said that this art had achieved new unparalled sophistication in martial arts.

    Yayaya, we all know about the above. Now here comes the fun part.

    In the second edition, Xiao Feng didn't create anything. And that's the bit I'm sticking with.

    Guo Jing incorporated softness into Dragon Palms. What happened to this newly modified version after Guo Jing? Unusable.

    Yang Guo created Sad Palms. It was a one-off martial arts that no one ever got to use again.

    Zhang Wuji, Shi Potian, Linghu Chong, Hu Fei, Chen Jialuo, Xuzhu, Duan Yu etc didn't leave much legacy either as far as I'm concerned. Although, I'm impressed that Linghu Chong actually got a mention in DOMD alongside Dugu Qiubai as legendary swordsmen who were able to overcome swords without swords?!

    Sweeper Monk might have been the most powerful martial artist of all but he didn't leave any legacy either, as far as we know.

    BUT NOW look at Sir Zhang Sanfeng. He established a new school, created new martial arts, and hundreds of years later that school and those martial arts are still practiced and famous. The Taiji art continued into Smiling Proud Wanderer and Wudang was still the second dominant orthodox school, just like in HSDS.

    So, I think that what makes Jin Yong say that Zhang Sanfeng is the greatest martial artist in his universe, is his ability to create new martial arts, AND the long-lasting legacy that he left. In that sense Yang Guo is not so great since his art kind of died with him (we assume).

    Actually if we are to consider DGSD 3rd edition Xiao Feng actually made a big impact by co-modifying 28 palms into 18 palms. But I consider that new information a sore thumb in an otherwise perfect "savagely hardcore" Xiao Feng, which is just how I like it.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  6. #86
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi
    I'm not picking a side here but I've noticed that it's hard to convince someone to believe in something he/she didn't originally believe in, even if JY himeself said it specifically. For example, JY said that YG's sword skills weren't very good but tons of people still try to rationalize how YG 's sword skills are at the pinnacle of swordsmanship and beyond LHC's "rudimentary" DG9J stage.
    OK. Well here is my latest take on this completely different issue. Yang Guo's sword skills are not very good, I agree. Linghu Chong is a more authentic swordsman. However Yang Guo's sword technique is more powerful than Linghu Chong's. There's not much "skil" to speak of when all you need to do is swing a big sword really fast to win. The Heavy Iron Sword stage can be considered a rather crude level, but it works. At the highest level of martial arts (namely something like formlessness), you have so much internal energy that you don't need any "skills" to speak of. You just lift your sleeves and your opponents will be blown away. I think Yang Guo is closer to this ultimate level than Linghu Chong. Yang Guo has less to worry about.

    So, I think that Jin Yong is correct: Linghu Chong does have better sword "skills" but you're right, it's not as simple as that. But about Zhang Sanfeng, I tried to offer my perspective but I have not heard much rebuttle from others.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  7. #87
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Cheung 3 Fung was not the main protagonist of HSDS, however. By forcing the "protagonist" category into the topic, you're basically limiting the range of possibilities to one conclusion.
    I said: Look, if somebody started a topic called "Zhang Sanfeng: the ultimate artist among the Greats." And then proposed a definition of a good martial artist, Would you have as much problem with that?

    How many Greats are there? the original 5 Greats (E, W, N S, Central) plus Zhou Botong = 6 Greats, + Qiu Qianren = 7, + Golden Wheel Monk = 8, + Guo Jing = 9, + Yang Guo = 10, + Zhang Sanfeng = 11, + Zhang Wuji = 12. At most you have 12 Greats.

    How many protagonists are there? More than 12, since DGSD acutally contained 3 protagonists. Although, it is true that we usually limit the discussions to the 7 or 8 well-known protagonists. However it seems to me that comparing Zhang Sanfeng among the Greats is not much different than comparing Yang Guo among the protagonists.

    So let's just try to be reasonable here, please.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  8. #88
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Are you sure? I think that Zhou Botong had a EASIER time with Sad Palms than Golden Wheel Monk, and the latter I'm talking about is with the subpar version of Sad Palms. Zhou Botong was almost getting the upper hand against Yang Guo, although I admit Yang Guo might not have been using Sad Palms at first. Even when Yang Guo certainly used Sad Palms against Zhou, by that time it had become a pure contest of martial arts with no danger involved. How can you say that Zhou was scrambling to defend.
    Read the part where YG truly first used Sad Palm stances on ZBT again. One stance in particular had ZBT scrambling to leap backwards, barely parrying the simultaneous blows and then on guard for further attacks. This is with ZBT expecting an attack from YG (although ZBT did not know the nature yet).


    That's just not true. Golden Wheel Monk knew that he was going to lose eventually so that's why he resorted to trickery. So Yang Guo's subpar level of Sad Palms is still superior to Golden Wheel Monk WITH WEAPONS!
    I'll repeat myself. Read the part again. At that point GWM and YG were deadlocked (although YG had a disadvantage of no weapons, he managed to draw GWM for two hundred stances). As usual GWM had the attack of no-confidence plus he didn't really want to die along with YG and GX when the platform collapsed. I'll revise what I said to not so much saying that GWM would've won but that he was not actually losing either (except in spirit).

    Interestingly enough, this just adds more fuel to the debate about GWM doubling his power in the 16 years


    And for the 9999th time, if your definition is correct THEN WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK THAT JIN YONG SAY ZHANG SANFENG IS THE BEST MARTIAL ARTIST, WHEN THIS SAME JIN YONG CLEARLY ESTABLISHED XIAO FENG AS THE GREATEST PRACTIONER OF MARTIAL ARTS, SAYING THAT HE COULD DEFEAT PEOPLE WITH BETTER INTERNAL ENERGY AND BETTER TECHNIQUE AND ALL? I MEAN FOR GOD'S SAKE, XIAO FENG REACHED THE SAME LEVEL OR BETTER THAN ZHANG SANFENG AT 70 YEARS YOUNGER!! I HOPE YOU HAVE AN EXPLANATION.
    Resorting to shouting now eh?

    Even though Z3F may not be the greatest fighter nor does he have the most power, is not his application of theory and comprehension of the techniques that he does have greater than anyone else? You keep expounding on this but you're not willing to see that Z3F is also a great practicioner. He may not have had the fortune of acquiring incredible internal energy and his age means that he does not have great physical strength, but his knowledge of theory and application of it certainly is surpassed by none.

    Even as a young teenager, before any martial arts training, he was able to quickly comprehend and utilize great martial arts theories. One could make the argument that it would take a great martial artist to have sufficient understanding to be a great martial arts creator.



    Finally, the fighters of wulin in JY's stories are all martial artists. Yet more than 90% did not create any martial arts at all. If the definition of a martial artist is a creator, would that not disqualify them from being called a martial artist at all?

    By your definition, YG is the greatest martial artists of the protagonists because he's the ONLY ONE that's a martial artist at all.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 08-23-06 at 06:33 PM.

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    PJ
    I agree with you that YG's attack with a sword is more powerful than LHC's, but that is simply due to the fact that YG has more internal power. If LHC has the same internal power, then he would beat YG because LHC has better sword skills. I don't agree at all with your theory that YG is closer to the ultimate level in sword skills because that would mean that YG's sword skills are great and there'll be no reason why JY would said that YG's sword skils aren't very good.

    But anyway, that proves my point about how JY can say something and people can still disagree with it. It's possible that a reader can be more right than JY because maybe JY himself doesn't know what he presented in the literature is different from what he thinks in his mind. So, it's very possible that your theory about YG's sword skills are correct based on what JY described and what your interpretation of the literature is. However, in this case I would have to disagree with you. Regardless of what JY says, I don't think that YG's sword skills are very good and are not close to the "formlessness" of DGQB. What JY says just confirms my own suspicions, but anyone is welcome to disagree with it and can try to present a different conclusion that might be just as legitimate as JY's conclusions.

    With regards to the "creativity" vs "mastery", I'll like to come up with a new persective. I really think it's hard to say which one is more indicative of one's talent in martial arts because it all depends on the quality of the martial arts created or the effort required in mastering certain martial arts. For example, a person who created 1 of the Shaolin 72 great martial arts would be more impressive than one who just masterd 5 of the arts. However, a guy who mastered all 72 Shaolin arts will be more impressive than someone who created 3 or 4 arts because the effort invovled in mastering all 72 arts are more impressive than creating 3 or 4 arts. GJ is a greater martial artist to me than HYS because it takes more ability to master everything that GJ learned than to create one of HYS's arts. In terms of a real world example, it would be equivalent to saying that Whitney Houston is a greater musician than most singers who write their own songs because Houston's vocal ability is a greater talent than the combined writing+singing of most female singers. Sorry for the lame pop music example but I could't think of another analogy.

    So, in terms of YG, I would agree with your theory that he is the ultimate martial artist if the sad palms were shown to be superior to the arts of the other protaganists. However, I'm not convinced that the sad palms are superior to what the other protaganists learn. I see no reason why GJ and XF would create a new style when they still haven't perfected the XL18 palms which are probably more refined than YG's sad palms. It is all about the effort/talent/ability involved in the actions of the characters. YG's creation of the sad palms is a great feat but to me, it's no greater than ZWJ's self education, GJ's mastery of so many different types of martial arts, XF's comprehension of fighting and understanding of Xl18 palms, LHC's understanding of DG9J. I would rank YG above protaganists like XZ and DY because XZ and DY just proved to me that they're incredibly lucky. I wouldn't say that XZ and DY are talentless but I don't think they would have reached the same levels as the others we've discussed if they had to go through the same grueling steps to become martial arts greats.

  10. #90
    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi
    It's possible that a reader can be more right than JY because maybe JY himself doesn't know what he presented in the literature is different from what he thinks in his mind.
    WTH, you think too much... Jin Yong is a great writer, so there should be no doubts about his writing qualities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi
    Regardless of what JY says, I don't think that YG's sword skills are very good and are not close to the "formlessness" of DGQB. What JY says just confirms my own suspicions, but anyone is welcome to disagree with it and can try to present a different conclusion that might be just as legitimate as JY's conclusions.
    I agree with you, Linghu Chong's swordsmanship is superior to Yang Guo's.
    ..ext88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Extremer88
    WTH, you think too much... Jin Yong is a great writer, so there should be no doubts about his writing qualities.
    I"m just saying that it's possible. Many writers admit in retrospect that what was written didn't exactly reflect their original intentions. Some people believe that YG's swordsmanship is really great and they make pretty good arguments sometimes. I used to just respond that JY said otherwise about YG's sword skills. However, now I don't think it's quite fair to just ignore the evidence and logic presented and that perhaps it is possible to interpret from the literture that YG's sword skills are excellent.

  12. #92
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    So let's just try to be reasonable here, please.
    How is my position unreasonable? All that I'm pointing out is that the specific set of conditions you've set up doesn't allow any room for debate or discussion because it's too narrowly defined.

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    Senior Member JigSta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Sure. But if you understand AND create, that's even more profound, don't you think?
    GJ knew Big Dipper so well, he could use it himself. Although it wasn't as "big" as YG's feat, it's similar He got over his shortcoming (he was 1 guy), like YG got over his 1 arm. No one sees GJ as the "ultimate martial artist".

    Or here's another example. RWX created XXDF using the remnants of an older, more profound martial art (like YG piecing together his knowledge). Should we put him under the catagory of "ultimate martial artist"?
    All that's needed to say have been said, why say anything more? The man is drunk, why stay any longer?....
    Quote Originally Posted by Question
    if CarMAN Lee hair is green, then am sure carMAN #$%@ a dog to give birth to you.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JigSta

    Or here's another example. RWX created XXDF using the remnants of an older, more profound martial art (like YG piecing together his knowledge). Should we put him under the catagory of "ultimate martial artist"?
    Problem with RWX is that his 'created' martial art ultimately killed him. If he had managed to overcome the flaw, then I would say he is a true Great. Unfortunately, he died due to not being able to overcome the flaw.

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    Senior Member JigSta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    Problem with RWX is that his 'created' martial art ultimately killed him. If he had managed to overcome the flaw, then I would say he is a true Great. Unfortunately, he died due to not being able to overcome the flaw.
    Yeah, I was using him as an extreme comparison :P

    Although YG's sad palms also had a 'flaw' that it wasn't as powerful when he was not depressed.

    My argument is that just because you "created" a martial art, doesn't make you the "ultimate martial artist". A great, yes, but the ultimate?
    All that's needed to say have been said, why say anything more? The man is drunk, why stay any longer?....
    Quote Originally Posted by Question
    if CarMAN Lee hair is green, then am sure carMAN #$%@ a dog to give birth to you.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    Problem with RWX is that his 'created' martial art ultimately killed him. If he had managed to overcome the flaw, then I would say he is a true Great. Unfortunately, he died due to not being able to overcome the flaw.
    Had GWM killed YG there, and had ZBT not been there to remind YG of his own freakin' martial arts, we could've said the same thing about YG, couldn't we? I don't think YG managed to overcome that critical flaw at all. He was just lucky then.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    The answer is both : YG is the best "creator" as well as "fighter" no one match him in this area except WCY DGQB and Z3F but they are not "hero" aka main protagonist..

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