Gwok Jing, ze ultimate martial artist among the protagonists

[Wu Wudi]

Gwok Jing is commonly accepted as the dumbest of all JY's protagonists, yet he arguably became the most powerful martial artist of his time. He wasn't even smart enough to tell that his future wife was a girl! What a moron! None of the other protagnoists was saddled with such stupidity. The closest case to GJ would be XZ but XZ was given much more freebie power than GJ, so XZ doesn't count. I would argue that GJ"s stupidity is a bigger handicap than YG's loss of one arm. Since GJ is the only character to be burdened with such idiocy, he must truly be the ultimate super greatest martial artist of all time.

[Extremer88]

Hey, how many ze ultimate topics are we going to have?

[Whsie]

EVen though GJ is stupid, but he has is great at fighting.

Ok.... other than the beggining, GJ was mostly strong. In ROCH, GJ displayed good fighting ability to be able to hold on to JLFW+XXZ and NMZ. In LOCH, GJ fought OYF and QQR plenty of times and yet GJ was able to hold on for a good amount of time each time(GJ was at most 80% of a Great at end of LOCH). Being able to fight with people above his level and still hold on, is impressive. In addition, GJ does seem to have talent in martial arts when he was able to understand the concepts of combat from several instances: Just to name a few...: GJ understood Dipper Formation from looking at the sky. GJ understood and comprehended more theories from the sound battle of OYF, HYS, H7G at Peach Blossom Island. GJ understood a lot of accupoint infos from watching Yideng cure HR.

[Wu Wudi]

Whsie, I think you're taking this thread too seriously.

[patricia n]

what an interesting topic. yes, i have to say that i am more impressed by those who are diagnosed with mental retardation (not to suggest that kj is this) and graduate from college and thrive in life than someone who earns a phD since phD's are dime a dozen compared to independent and successful intellectually challenged folks (trying saying that in one breath and i'll be more impressed). that said, i entirely agree with the opening topic.

ps i still admire those who excel in any area of life (including phD's)except violence and other such negative acts. but i have a soft spot for the underdogs in society.

Hey, how many ze ultimate topics are we going to have?

just for kicks, we should have ze ultimate of ze ultimate topics thread. ok, that was not funny.

[Whsie]

hm.... is GJ really that much retarded? Why do I never had the impression that GJ was that retarded in the book. It was apparent that the 03 Adaptation of LOCH of LYP made GJ overly retarded.

Btw, patricia, your last sentence wasn't funny until you said, "Ok, that was not funny."

[Extremer88]

just for kicks, we should have ze ultimate of ze ultimate topics thread. ok, that was not funny.

Haha, how's the rpg, Patricia? Haven't chated with you like for a very long time... You' haven't been loggin to msn?

[0-0-0]

Whsie, I think you're taking this thread too seriously.

yea, but that's because we all know it will eventually become

ze ultimate martial artist amongst the protagonists, Guo Jing VS Yang Guo, ze ultimate martial artist amongst the protagonists

[Ken Cheng]

Hey, how many ze ultimate topics are we going to have?

It's like Marvel Comics: we're going to have ULTIMATE editions of all our favorite heroes.

[Bangs]

Oh man here comes another debate. Hahaha just like in the YG thread this topic is doubtful.

[PJ]

what an interesting topic. yes, i have to say that i am more impressed by those who are diagnosed with mental retardation (not to suggest that kj is this) and graduate from college and thrive in life than someone who earns a phD since phD's are dime a dozen compared to independent and successful intellectually challenged folks

That's wonderful. Except the subject is not related to who you are most impressed with. The subject is about who is the ultimate martial artist among the protagonists, simple as that. So let's do away with the personal bias shall we, and move on to more productive evidence-based discussions.

[patricia n]

That's wonderful. Except the subject is not related to who you are most impressed with. The subject is about who is the ultimate martial artist among the protagonists, simple as that. So let's do away with the personal bias shall we, and move on to more productive evidence-based discussions.

i don't understand you. this thread is obviously a joke. why must you take this so seriously?

and how can we make this or any of those "ultimate threads" an evidence-based discussion when obviously the evidences are interpretations based on our own biases...aka opinions? it's one thing to suggest that you feel a certain way but another thing to force your opinion on others, especially when you present your opinion as though it should be a known fact. that's just ridiculouosly wrong.

going back to the purpose of this thread, it just boils down to one question: should a mental handicap be considered a greater defect than a physical handicap? that's like comparing apples and oranges. in which case, why compare them? what kind of evidence-based discussion can we possibly have to prove one is superior to the other?

i'm under the impression that this thread was created in response to the tension which surfaced in your ultimate thread...and i'm glad because the atmosphere in here is much more laid back until...well...

seriously, just chill.

[PJ]

I would argue that GJ"s stupidity is a bigger handicap than YG's loss of one arm

Not when it comes to martial arts, apparently. People always argue that Guo Jing was stupid but that he had much talent for martial arts. So if you have talent for martial arts, the other factors don't matter much.

In that sense Yang Guo's loss of an arm also isn't much of a real handicap as far as martial arts is concerned. If he (anyone) is truly a genius then he will find a way to achieve greatness.

However, since some of us are talking about IMPRESSIVENESS now, I am still more impressed by Yang Guo's achievement, and here is why.

Guo Jing was handed Great-level martial arts that suited him. And he had the chance to master them fully. The two most notable are 9 Yin and Dragon Palms. If he were to learn other more intricate martial arts then he would fail, because as explained in the novel apparently, he sucks at learning fancy stuff. 9 Yin and XL18Z and Quanzheng are all straight-forward internal-based, and that's why he could master them.

It seems to me that Guo Jing was handed the perfect martial arts system to him.

Yang Guo didn't have such luxury. He had access to more martial arts but due to one reason or another he did not have the opportunity to fully master them. Toad Stances, he only learned it briefly before forced to move on the other things. Jade Maiden, he had to practice with Dragon Girl. This is the art that he thrived in the most before become a Great. Dog-beating Sticks, Hong Qigong only taught him oh so briefly. He learned some of Huang Yaoshi's tricks too apparently but I have yet to touch that part of the novel. Anyway, he learned many incompatible martial arts which are not to be practiced together. For example he could not practice the dangerous Toad Stances and then use the same internal energy to train Dog-beating Stick. He could not really concentrate on one martial art, which was not going to get him very far. So eventually he had to create his own style, which became at least as good as all of the other Great-level martial arts, including the Dragon Palms.

It seems to me that overall Guo Jing had better luck finding the martial arts that suited him, while Yang Guo spent years learning material in contradiction. In the end both reached the same level, only that Yang Guo had to create his own style from scratch.

Circumstances considered, I think Yang Guo overcame more obstacles as a martial artist.

[PJ]

i don't understand you. this thread is obviously a joke. why must you take this so seriously?

Because I have replied to your arguments in the other topic while you have ignored my replies to you. I realize that no one is obligated to reply to anything, however it's a bit frustrating when I have devoted a large amount of time coming up with evidence-based counters to your points in hopes of making some sense to you regarding my view, and you simply chose to not consider my perspective.

and how can we make this or any of those "ultimate threads" an evidence-based discussion when obviously the evidences are interpretations based on our own biases...aka opinions?

The answer should be obvious if you actually read my replies to you in the other topic. The answer is ZHANG SANFENG, the man whom Jin Yong considers to be the best martial artist in his universe. I took him as the model of the ultimate martial artist and analyzed why Yang Guo should be the protagonist with the most similar characteristics as Jin Yong's confirmed ultimate martial artist.

it's one thing to suggest that you feel a certain way but another thing to force your opinion on others, especially when you present your opinion as though it should be a known fact. that's just ridiculouosly wrong.

Please. If anything, Your bias (which, apparently, is well-known on this forum) is the one preventing you from making clear judgements regarding this topic. When you say something like "Yang Guo will never be the ultimate martial artist in our mind" without even considering what the guy has really achieved (yes, the guy that you hate, apparently).

i'm under the impression that this thread was created in response to the tension which surfaced in your ultimate thread

The tension only surfaced after you made a rather unfriendly reply.

[Whsie]

I don't know, but patriaca seems to have a grudge against guys....
She wasn't too kind to me either....

[PJ]

she seems to prefer Guo Jing, so it doesn't seem to me that she hates all guys. Just Yang Guo (and possibly others).

[Whsie]

she seems to prefer Guo Jing, so it doesn't seem to me that she hates all guys. Just Yang Guo (and possibly others).

She seems to hate any guy that is wish washy or indescisive. To my knowledge, she hates YG because of his flirteous ways DESPITE the fact that he matured later. She despises Wei Xiao Bao as you can imagine. And I think I can't leave out DY and Duang Zhen Cheng can I?

[CC]

Just a thought. Shooting of without really thinking since its the end of a long work day here.

I suppose YG is lower on the 'martial arts creator' scale compared to Z3F because his skill can't be taught? Its so much a part of him that its partly an intrinsic talent instead of a 100% orthodox skill system.

i.e. No one can use the Dragon Palms like XF can, so if XF had renamed his version at the end of the novel as 'An Ran Duan Long Zhang' and mixed it with a few stances of Demon Subduing Palm and Founder's Fist, we wouldn't really take it as a 'real orthodox' martial art system since its just his own style of fighting.

I know I know its not exactly an apples to apples analogy but its the end of a long day and I am just trying to say that Z3F gets rated higher partly due to the non-individual-intrinsicness (is there such a word?) of his martial art system.

[JigSta]

It seems to me that Guo Jing was handed the perfect martial arts system to him.

Which doesn't make it any less impressive, although it pales in comparison to what YG did. GJ didn't need to do much more, his martial arts ensured that he would be near the top if he mastered them. He did, though, understand his dragon subduing palms so well that he could modify it. Which is no mean feat as the Dragon Subduing palms were already pretty much near the peak of power.

only that Yang Guo had to create his own style from scratch.

Not from scratch. He already knew some moves from the most profound martial arts in his era (and other era's). So, although he had to pool together what he knew to make something he could work with, the "ingredients" were the best of the best. Sad Palms was an amalgamation of all he knew. If he only had Jade maiden and QZ, do you think he could have made such a powerful martial art to work with his one arm? Could the other Greats modify their martial arts if their arm was cut off? They certainly were high masters of their respective arts. I guess that's pure speculation, as YG did it right in the novel for us to see.

[Bangs]

Well on GJ and YG comparison, I would say YG surpasses GJ. Here's why...

YG created sad palms, do you honestly think that GJ is clever enough to create a set of palms when asked or given the opportunity? I really don't think so.