Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

[ChronoReverse]

If you're a typical forum warrior here, you've proven my point far better than any copious amount of text could.

Thank you.

Okay, that is ENOUGH.


You insist that what you're saying is correct, demand that we "Read the novels" we many of us have done that. Ignored points not in your favor and have kept on asserting things despite volleys of counterpoints made.

That alone is fine, we have plenty of that.



But you have also been insulting, dismissive and full of personal attacks. That is not acceptable behavior and you will cease that.

[HuntingX]

"unproven pressumptions. why would the DOMD & FF martial artists be considered "low level" if they can perform feats that high level martial artists of other novels can perform?"

I read that and stopped.

How do I argue that?

Does anyone who's read the novels agree with that?

What's the counter to something like that?

Speaking of personal attacks, you must have a very very thin skin. I haven't attacked anyone personally. If you correct something I wrote with an incorrect statement that's directly contradicted by the text, then I'm going to call you a newb. Wow. I called you a newb. I'm sure that qualifies as "personal attack" in most forums.

[Ren Ying Ying]

"unproven pressumptions. why would the DOMD & FF martial artists be considered "low level" if they can perform feats that high level martial artists of other novels can perform?"

I read that and stopped.

How do I argue that?

Does anyone who's read the novels agree with that?

What's the counter to something like that?

is it really that difficult to show instances on why you would believe so? as with anything, here's how to do it

1) show that DOMD/FF martial artists were not able to perform the same feats that high leveled martial artists of other novels were able to do

or

2) if they were able to perform the same feats, explain why they would still be considered as "lower"

or

3) anything that JY or the text specifically state, therefore allowing you to arrive at the conclusion.

i don't know how to put it in simpler terms. i think any other forum member can understand these terms.

[HuntingX]

I was uh, being somewhat sarcastic. I wasn't genuinely asking.

Basically, there have been debates going on about Miao, the #1 guy in FF vs Guo Fu. Most lists will put Au Bai, the #1 guy in DOMD, at a level comparable to the 7 freaks of Jiangnan.

So my statement that even the best of DOMD and FF are described in glowing terms has little or no bearing on their absolute scale compared to their relative scale.

In conclusion, your statement was so wrong, that it was pointless to argue.

[Ren Ying Ying]

I was uh, being somewhat sarcastic. I wasn't genuinely asking.

In conclusion, your statement was so wrong, that it was pointless to argue.

yes...i am SO WRONG. please SHOW me why i'm wrong. sarcasm or guinuine, i don't care.

if you're still confused on how to "show"...then please refer to the 3 criterions above. if you have your own critierion, that's fine too. but...please show us. otherwise, your claims are as valid as my claim that Yang lianting is a descendant of Yang Guo.

Basically, there have been debates going on about Miao, the #1 guy in FF vs Guo Fu. Most lists will put Au Bai, the #1 guy in DOMD, at a level comparable to the 7 freaks of Jiangnan.

basically, if i start a discussion on Sweeper monk vs. guo fu, does that mean sweeper is on the same tier as guo fu?

and what exactly are the lists? JY wrote them himself?

So my statement that even the best of DOMD and FF are described in glowing terms has little or no bearing on their absolute scale compared to their relative scale.

how do you know it's not the other way around? perhaps sweeper, xiao feng, etc only seemed powerful compared to the DGSD cannon, but in fact, they are all crap compared to the peps in FF & DOMD? where does you basis lie?

[ChanceEncounter]

Basically, there have been debates going on about Miao, the #1 guy in FF vs Guo Fu.

Forum speculation; not canon.

Most lists will put Au Bai, the #1 guy in DOMD, at a level comparable to the 7 freaks of Jiangnan.

Non-canon lists.

So my statement that even the best of DOMD and FF are described in glowing terms has little or no bearing on their absolute scale compared to their relative scale.

In conclusion, your statement was so wrong, that it was pointless to argue.

What you need to do is go through LDJ and XSFH, look at the feats, and then do a relative comparison.

There is a widely circulated fan theory that the martial level of the characters seem to diminish from TLBB all the way to the present, with LCJ being the weakest (since it is last).

That said, these theories are based in speculation that may or may not be true. I also don't find it a coincident that the "most powerful" (according to people here) characters seem to come from TLBB and the Condor trilogy, perhaps uncoincidentally the most popular JY novels. SPT is there because it was explicitly stated that there were few in martial history that could match him.

I guess powerful martial artists can only come from JY's most widely read books.

[HuntingX]

If you want to seriously play devil's advocate, I'll play along.

There's a couple easy measures of overall dominance.

Take, for instance, the comparison of a non-practitioner (read SOLDIER) vs martial arts master.

We will now see the decline in motion.

First age: Song vs Liao

Take XF, who is strong, but not nearly at the highest echelon of DGSD.

He went through TWO armies, and took their kings hostage. Not killing them, took them hostage through 2 massive armies. This means closing into melee range. That part is important.

Second age: Song vs Yuan

Moving on to the Condor trilogy. It was stated repeatedly in the novel that no matter how high GJ's martial arts are, he cannot fight an army. That's why it was so bad for him to get surrounded in the battle for Xiangyang. So, GJ is not as dominant as XF.

Third age: Ming

This gets into the XAJH argument, and there's very few army battles here. So my criteria of basepoint comparison doesn't apply. If someone has a suitable battle, that would help.

Fourth age: Ming/Qing transition

DOMD. Even the absolute top martial artists (Au Bai, Chen Jinnan, etc.) cannot stop armies. What does this mean? They fear opposing the armies of the government. If it was back in Song days, they'd just crush the army, depose the emperor straight away. So they are clearly weaker than the DGSD days.

Compared to the YG/GJ days, they are also weaker. Why? YG can assassinate kings from long distance with his divine finger flick. GJ, even when surrounded, can fight off large armies without giving way. Now, he's no XF where he can PLOW THROUGH armies to get to their leader. But Chen Jinnan spends most of his time running away from government troops.

5th age: Qing (Qianlong)

B/S. The teams of heroes now have trouble dealing even with groups of government troops. No longer can 1 pam blast down tens of soldiers. Each fight is somewhat prolonged, and it is clear that the gap between top martial artist and 0 is no longer as profound.

The difference here is that even TEAMS of heroes cannot fight armies.

So this was my criteria for judging, and as I said repeatedly, I have a LOT of trouble judging the abilities of people in XAJH, because they rarely fight people at the baseline level.

[ChronoReverse]

Not much of a judgment then when you compare what the armies had available between the eras. With guns that JY stated that nobody could withstand, there's only so much you can do.


For instance, GJ was facing up the Mongolians. The Mongolians were one of the three finest archers the world has ever seen. While GJ was able to go through the soldiers like a wolf among sheep, once the spear formations and archers were in position, even he can no longer do much.

There's also the case where GJ faced up just under 100 Taoists in a formation intended to multiple their power. Not only can GJ handle them with ease, he actually went easy on them. Considering those Taoists were pugilists training QZ martial arts, they're all far stronger than a single soldier. With the reflection that 7 QZ elders were like children for a Great, but with the formation, were able to even match a Great, GJ certainly had great ability to fight a group.

Finally you add in how it was stated that much weaker fighters like YKZ couldn't be taken down by even 400 Mongolian warriors but they were juggled like balls by HYS and YG, and you have to wonder a bit how powerful these fighters really were.


Incidentally, I recall XZ and DY plowing through an army but I only recall XF smashing an elite guard. In XZ's case it's excusable since he has stupid levels of internal energy and for DY, he had LBWB to evade everything.

[ChanceEncounter]

And are you sure that technology had nothing to do with the improvement of armies?

After generation of generation of armies conquering one another, it makes sense that the last link in the chain in the strongest if it can beat the previous ones, right? It's also not quite a fair comparison considering most of the strongest characters never had situations where they could go through an army to get to the king.

[HuntingX]

Ancient technology was more or less stagnant. The Chinese armies never got the huge tech jumps that Western armies eventually developed. To see this, note that Mongolians had basically no tech but some bows and horses, yet conquered half the planet.

As far as vs soldiers go

XF stated (and various experts agreed) he could fight over TEN THOUSAND soldiers without trouble. Ok, so the snake whip guy can fight 400. 10,000 >>>>> 400.

When I say experts agreed, I don't mean that forum goers agreed. I meant that the wulin experts agreed he could fight an ARMY by himself.

Can GJ deal with 250 snake whip dudes? no. He could barely deal with the equivalent of 5 (count JLFW as 2, deduct the fact they were basically competing thus he survived).

[Ren Ying Ying]

Ancient technology was more or less stagnant. The Chinese armies never got the huge tech jumps that Western armies eventually developed. To see this, note that Mongolians had basically no tech but some bows and horses, yet conquered half the planet.

technology doesn't only equate to weaponry, but also battle tactics.

[ChronoReverse]

When I say experts agreed, I don't mean that forum goers agreed. I meant that the wulin experts agreed he could fight an ARMY by himself.

Show me your experts.

There's a difference between plowing through an army and fighting one

Can GJ deal with 250 snake whip dudes? no. He could barely deal with the equivalent of 5 (count JLFW as 2, deduct the fact they were basically competing thus he survived).

If you look at that fight, GJ was never losing and was in fact getting more and more vigorous despite the Mongolian warriors waiting for GJ to tire himself out. Without YG's interference getting GJ to self-sacrifice himself, who's to say GJ would've even gotten hit?

And that's quite a dismissal of GWM there. Considering he was stated to be GJ's equal, holding GWM off plus more fighters is quite a feat.

Even XF, fighting a far weaker MRF and a YTZ that had no good technique (he was mostly a damage soak for MRF), would have eventually tired and lost.

Ancient technology was more or less stagnant. The Chinese armies never got the huge tech jumps that Western armies eventually developed. To see this, note that Mongolians had basically no tech but some bows and horses, yet conquered half the planet.

I like how you completely dismiss the Mongolians when they had tremendous discipline and tactics. Plus the Mongolian Composite Bow was rather a marvelous bow. To say "just bows" with that is like looking at a AK-47 rifle and dismissing it as "just a blunderbuss".

[HuntingX]

From CC
"Yes.

BUT,

In Xiao Feng's case, when he proclaimed that he had the ability to traverse an army of 10,000+ people, there were hundreds of members of the Beggar's Union--and several other third party experts--present, who knew of Xiao Feng's prowess. They all agreed that Xiao Feng was not exaggerating.
__________________"

There's that

Moving on

the fight with the enemies? Again, this is why you need quotations.

You're 100% wrong

After a few more stances, the power in Fawang’s wheel gradually increased. The force of the
attacks from Nimoxing’s iron snake was increasing as well.
Guo Jing was getting anxious and thought, “If this continues, I won’t be able to hold them off.
Guo’er is over fighting with that giant. That giant’s martial arts are just average, Guo’er will be able
to manage. I need to get over to him as soon as possible and think of a way to get out of this place.”
The four were putting all their concentration into their battle and did not dare to even blink; they did
not notice Yang Guo and Ma Guangzuo were just watching their battle.

Finally the composite bow:
Composite bows were soon adopted and adapted by civilizations, such as the Chinese, Assyrian, Indian, and Egyptian, who came into contact with nomads. Several composite bows were found in the tomb of Tutankhamun, who died in 1324 BCE.[8] Composite bows are known in China from at least the Warring States Period.[9] The military of the Han Dynasty (220 BCE-206 CE) utilized composite crossbows, often in infantry square formations, in their many engagements against the Xiongnu. Horse archers such as the Scythians, Parthians, Huns, Bulgars, Seljuk Turks, and Mongols often used skirmishing tactics where they would approach, shoot, and retreat.[10] The term Parthian shot refers to the widespread horse-archer tactic of shooting backwards over the rear of their horses as they retreated.

So you're again wrong on all counts because you don't bother to look up evidence.

The composite bow (Mongolian version) had been around for thousands of years (2k to be exact) before they conquered everything.

Further, you just compared a Composite bow to an AK-47. WTF?

[Ren Ying Ying]

The composite bow (Mongolian version) had been around for thousands of years (2k to be exact) before they conquered everything.

Further, you just compared a Composite bow to an AK-47. WTF?

and gunpowder has been around for at least a millenium, guns have been around for a couple century. certainly you wont' compare the AK47 to a rifle from the 17th century, would you? compare the machine guns in WWI and WWII and you still see a significant improvement.

you still have not addressed tactics--it can break or make an army.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Your response post contained a great deal of arrogance and accusations, and very little actual meaning; your attempt to explain away feats, such as the writing on wood (really soft wood? LOL!), is exactly what I referred to when I talked about people trying to ignore things which do not fit their set biases. All you have offered is subjective strawman arguments, such as bringing up Xu Zhu or comparing 6MSJ to KHBD in response to my pointing out that it is very likely that the people who RWX drained are of a higher martial arts level than the people whom Duan Yu drained (prior to Jiu Mozhi). Strawman arguments, and a great deal of vitriol; can't handle criticism well?

"[...] is just ignorant"
"I really don't know where you come up with this stuff."
"To compare something as ridiculously OP as 6MSJ with the sunflower manual is insane"
"It might be fun to twist the author's intentions to whatever you want. Feel free to do that."
"Just because there's some fad about how "great and awesome" the XAJH characters are, you duly follow suit."
"Whether or not you believe it is irrelevant."

So I am 'ignorant', pull stuff out of my ***, insane, twist the author's intention, am a sheep who follows fads, and my opinion is irrelevant. Welcome to the forum, HunterX. Swell guy.

Now let's review your actual claims.

But to say that DY is inferior in internal energy is anyone in XAJH is just ignorant.

Duan Yu's internal energy came from draining a number of extremely low level students (and part of the 3 Evils); Ren Woxing drained the energy of elite martial arts masters. Why is it ignorant to suggest that Ren Woxing's internal energy is very likely on par with that of Duan Yu?

The ONLY feat that I have a hard time figuring out is the writing one. Maybe the walls are really soft or they cheated with something.

That's a good one.

And the YJJ in XAJH is CLEARLY not the same as the one in DGSD. I really don't know where you come up with this stuff.

Clearly how? No one practiced the YJJ of DGSD (You Tanzhi studied Yoga from the YJJ Sanskrit manual), and it was stated that when Ah Zhu stole the Sanskrit YJJ from Shaolin, they weren't too concerned because they had the Chinese copies. Remind me again how they are clearly different?

You're just ignoring the author's intentions.

This comes up repeatedly in your post. Are you the author? If not, claiming 'author intention' is a cop-out; all it means when you refer to author intention is how 'you feel' when you read the book. Unfortunately, how you feel is not emblematic of how everyone else feels, or how the author necessarily feels. As someone pointed out, a lot of people 'feel' that SPT is an idiot because he seems to be written that way, but JY himself feels that SPT is highly intelligent. Zomg! Is JY himself perverting author intention?!

Maybe I'm wrong, but your "examples" are well known and vague at best. They "prove" nothing.

At this point, I wonder if it even matters, since the examples that you can't completely ignore (writing on wood), you just say don't matter.

The fact that a leaking LHc was able to beat every single fighter below the second tier says a lot about the level of internal energy.

No, it says a lot about the level of his swordsmanship.

But just because this forum comes to some "consensus" doesn't mean it's the "truth."[...]The problem with a forum argument that drags on and on is a few people who have some bizarre agenda start some massive campaign to change public opinion on a book.

Self-contradictory. Either this forum has reached a consensus on XAJH and I am a sheep, or I am waging a lonely campagin with a bizarre agenda to change the public consensus. You can't even be stable on your insults and innuendo.

Just because there's some fad about how "great and awesome" the XAJH characters are, you duly follow suit.

Completely erroneous. I have always been highly supportive of the quality of XAJH martial artists (who are generally rated even higher on the Chinese language forums, the community size of which is far greater this one). It is arguable that I am one of the people who helped start and perpetuate this 'fad'. This is not only a personal attack, but completely false.

Furthermore, I find it completely astonishing that in a later post, you state that "I have a LOT of trouble judging the abilities of people in XAJH", and yet you seem so definite and certain that they are crappy and have no internal energy. So you can't judge their abilities, but you are sure that they are crap nonetheless, and those who argue with you are 'ignorant', 'insane', make stuff up, and pervert author intention? Careful. You just might get the 'troll' label.

[ChronoReverse]

You know nothing about the Mongolian Composite Bow. How can you even compare them to other composite bows when they're clearly not the same except that they're composite bows?

I have the skill to make a bow out of balsa wood and paraffin. By definition it would be a composite bow. Surely it wouldn't compare to a modern composite bow with stabilizers would it?

And did you seriously think weaponry doesn't improve over time? Do you also think that a musket can compare to a modern rifle?

Furthermore, as usual, you're only able to take in one thing at a time, unable to think flexibly. The bow was extraordinary, but it was the skillful usage of the bows that the Mongolians were able to take it to the next level and dominate on the battle field.


And I like how you piece together things while leaving other chunks out.

Guo Jing was using the great Wulin skill the “Eighteen Dragon Subduing Palms”. Fawang and the others kept tight on him thinking that even if his internal energy was more profound, he would not be able to keep up so powerful a palm technique for much longer. But Guo Jing had been practicing the “Nine Yin Manual” diligently for the last twenty years; at first his real power did not show but tens of stances later, the “Eighteen Dragon Subduing Palms” suddenly became powerful and then suddenly gentle, from great hardness came softness. This was something that Hong Qigong did not manage to grasp all those years ago. By using this kind of palm technique to fend off these three fighters, not only did he remain on an even level with them, he was able to counterattack when he had the chance and he was getting more and more fluent as he went on.

Of course, we already know that GWM was equal to GJ before this so all your attempts to sidetrack and make noise are pointless since GJ was fighting a force that was stronger than him.

But he still didn't lose out in ACTION.



And finally your expert. Didn't you say WULIN EXPERT and explicitly not FORUM EXPERT? Why are you calling on CC now? You don't get to pick and choose. If all you do is cite those you agree with only, you have no footing.

[HuntingX]

Read CC's Quote more carefully man. Read. It. Carefully. I can't be more clear than that. He's summarizing the passage, NOT giving his own opinion.

Find me ONE source that says the Mongolian composite bow was VASTLY better than comparable composite bows. They are all basically the same.

I have no idea what you're talking about regarding GJ, since you specifically said he was winning.

DY drained JMZ, so he's at least as strong as XF. How could you forget that?

To RWX

I have a LOT of trouble judging their level IF my assumption was correct.

The assumption is that in EVERY SINGLE NOVEL INTERNAL ENERGY MATTERS.

Ok? Why was ZWJ so good? Internal energy.

So magically, in XAJH, internal energy DOESN'T MATTER? Is THAT your contention? Or is it that their levels are low? I gave BOTH possibilities, and you don't like either. Then your take is?

You haven't contradicted a single point I've made.

[ChronoReverse]

In the LATTER of DGSD, DY drained KMZ, but before that he already surpassed XF.



As for the Mongolian Composite Bow, the VERY FIRST ITEM IN GOOGLE SEARCH yields an article with this:

The Mongol bow is not as large and long as the English one, but it is vastly more powerful. The draw weight of an English longbow averages around 70-80 pounds, whereas the Old Mongol bow had a pull that, according to George Vernadsky, averaged at around 166 pounds. Chambers states that the pull varied from 100 to 160 pounds. This seeming discrepancy certainly reflects the fact that draw weight varied with the strength of the user, and with what use the bow had been made for. As could be expected, there was a considerable difference in shooting range. Whereas the English longbow could shoot at distances up to 250 yards or around 228 meters, the Mongol counterpart can hit its target at 350 yards or 320 meters and, if the archer is well trained for the task, even beyond that.

Now, remember when I mentioned "One of the three greatest archers"? The English Longbowmen were one of the three. The English Longbowmen absolutely destroyed the armoured knights of France.

Of course, we already know what the Horseback Archers of Mongolia did.

So magically, in XAJH, internal energy DOESN'T MATTER? Is THAT your contention? Or is it that their levels are low? I gave BOTH possibilities, and you don't like either. Then your take is?

Yet another example of you simply ignoring what you're told whenever it doesn't agree with you. Didn't RWX say that XAJH was full of people with extraordinary internal energy?


I'll also add this: Sure there's ONE person going around beating a lot of people with no OFFENSIVE internal energy, but LHC had a lot of DEFENSIVE internal energy plus he was unable to defeat anyone who was top tiered before he recovered and gained strong internal energy.

If anything, XAJH shows the crux of what YBQ said: With technique, you have great progress early on but eventually internal energy catches up and dominates.

[Ren Wo Xing]

To RWX

I have a LOT of trouble judging their level IF my assumption was correct.

The assumption is that in EVERY SINGLE NOVEL INTERNAL ENERGY MATTERS.

Ok? Why was ZWJ so good? Internal energy.

So magically, in XAJH, internal energy DOESN'T MATTER? Is THAT your contention? Or is it that their levels are low? I gave BOTH possibilities, and you don't like either. Then your take is?

You haven't contradicted a single point I've made.

I've contradicted every point you made. You just ignore them while spewing vitriol. Or is your idea that me not specifically responding to, for example, your assertion that "XAJH people could write on wood only because the wood was soft" considered to be a lack of contradiction?

To answer this specific point, internal energy DOES matter in XAJH, just like technique DOES matter in YTTLJ. However, Linghu Chong's technique is SO FAR BEYOND that of nearly everyone else's, that he is able to compensate for his inferior internal energy, just like how Zhang Wuji's internal energy is SO FAR BEYOND that of nearly everyone else's, that he is able to compensate for his inferior battle experience and inferior technique.

[HuntingX]

Where's the vitriol in my post? I don't see any. Are you just slinging around big words now?

How long did LHC practice DG9J? 1 month? That magically makes him SO FAR SUPERIOR to swordsman practicing for decades? Does that sound reasonable to you? FQY practiced it for what, 40 years? If the technique is so incredibly amazing, why didn't he just quell the problems in Wulin? Why hide in a little cave?

As far as his internal energy goes, he did NOT have "defensive" internal energy. The slightest touch caused him to vomit blood and go crazy. There was one instance where the energy saved his life, but he was incapacitated as a result. So his internal energy was definitely negative.

To Chrono

OK dude, you seriously need to read better. Yes it's better than the English Longbow. Where does it say it's better than COMPARABLE COMPOSITE BOWS. See the issue here? Western bows SUCK. All Western bows. Including Longbows. This is a well known fact. So saying that Mongol bows >> Longbows means nothing. Obviously, I checked google first. That site gives us no useful information. If you had checked more websites, you would have realized that Turkish/Hungarian/Chinese/Mongolian bows are all virtually identical with only superficial differences, with Hungarian being the worst and Mongolian being marginally superior (only due to their modification for horse combat).

YBQ was a moron right? His theories are wrong, his martial arts are ordinary. Don't use him as an authority on Martial arts.

Finally, if DY > XF before JMZ, then DY >>>> XF after JMZ, right?

So why did someone argue that LHC > DY? I fail to see the logical connection.

You realize today there's pamphlets in Shaolin for the 18 dragon palms. It's the same temple. I wonder if the martial arts is the same.