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Thread: Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

  1. #201
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Wait, you seriously think that the English Longbow sucks? And you don't think that the Mongolians didn't have something extraordinary? Did you even study history at all?


    And I didn't use YBQ as an authority. I used his quote as an example of where he happened to be (mostly) correct: Internal Energy is all-important.

  2. #202
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    On the Mongol bow specifically

    The principal difference between the Mongol bow and the Hungarian bow is the presence of a "string run" (or "string bridge") - an attachment of horn or wood used to hold the string a little further apart from the bow's limbs. This attachment aids the archer by increasing the draw weight in the early stages of the draw, thus slightly increasing the total energy stored by the draw and available to the arrow. String bridges are not attested at the time of the Mongol empire, appearing in Chinese art during the later Manchu Qing dynasty.[3] The armies of Genghis Khan would have used the composite bows typical of their various nationalities at the time.

    Dispelling the myths of the English Longbow:
    Bodkin arrows were much less effective against plate armour. The latest research is that even very heavy draw longbows armed with bodkin arrows have trouble penetrating well made, tough steel plate armour

    Done.

    Stop arguing.

  3. #203
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntingX View Post
    Where's the vitriol in my post? I don't see any. Are you just slinging around big words now?
    //"[...] is just ignorant"
    "I really don't know where you come up with this stuff."
    "To compare something as ridiculously OP as 6MSJ with the sunflower manual is insane"
    "It might be fun to twist the author's intentions to whatever you want. Feel free to do that."
    "Just because there's some fad about how "great and awesome" the XAJH characters are, you duly follow suit."
    "Whether or not you believe it is irrelevant."//

    You consider vitriol to big a big word? No wonder your understanding of Wuxia is deficient.

    How long did LHC practice DG9J? 1 month? That magically makes him SO FAR SUPERIOR to swordsman practicing for decades? Does that sound reasonable to you? FQY practiced it for what, 40 years? If the technique is so incredibly amazing, why didn't he just quell the problems in Wulin? Why hide in a little cave?
    Did you read the actual novel? FQY retreated from the Jianghu because of the Huashan sect's fratricide. This is CANON. In addition, he specifically stated that LHC would have to practice for many years before he would be able to compete with the true elites, which, if we take to be the likes of RWX, Fang Zheng, and DFBB and their like, is roughly right. The reason LHC progressed relatively quickly is because he had many fortuitous experiences which were incredibly dangerous, but did not result in his death, which gave him tremendous experience. Again, this is CANON and stated specifically in the book. Also, one of the reasons why LHC was able to learn DG9J so quickly at all was because he was naturally suited for it, and because he was supremely intelligent; Feng Qingyang himself took more than three months to learn just one stance of DG9J. Again, CANON. I can pull quotes if you want.

    As far as his internal energy goes, he did NOT have "defensive" internal energy. The slightest touch caused him to vomit blood and go crazy. There was one instance where the energy saved his life, but he was incapacitated as a result. So his internal energy was definitely negative.
    Bzzt. WRONG! It was only when he tried to exert his own internal energy that he had problems; not to mention, in the passage you refer to (where he fought Yue Hou), was as follows:

    "When the two energy forces, one Yin and one Yang, struck his body, the inner energy streams inside him naturally reacted by creating energy shields around his internal organs and his vital channels, preventing any injuries. But the strike still gave a tremendous shake to his entire body and he felt indescribable suffering. Afraid that Yue Hou would strike him again with energy forces, he dashed out of the pavilion and thrust his sword out rapidly."

    He not only wasn't incapacitated, he was able to immediately go on the counter attack! Following that, Yue Hou wanted to launch another attack, but by then, LHC had already subdued him. Incapacitated? Please! Again, have you even read the novel?

    On the Duan Yu subject, I'll repeat. After absorbing the energy of a few scrubs and some of the energy of the weaker three Evils, his internal energy was already above that of Xiao Feng. Do you have ANY evidence suggesting the energy of those he absorbed was better than that of the elite masters which RWX absorbed?
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 07-05-08 at 11:41 PM.
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  4. #204
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    *sigh

    If you looked a little deeper, you would have realized that the Englishmen didn't have to punch through plate armor with arrows. Not even the Mongolian Composite bow can do that. They killed the horses under the Knights instead in a display of discipline. Thus defeating a larger army.

    And this is the crux of it. The Mongolians were extraordinary because they were excellent horseback archers. They had an excellent bow and combined with tactics they are one of the best archers of history. They too defeated many opponents that they were out-numbered by.




    And your extremely superficial look at the bows betrays your shallow understanding. The pull of a bow is only one point of a bow. The durability, size and usage design are all important factors. The English Longbow was well suited for foot archers but unusable for the Mongolian tactics. Even the same bow isn't the same bow if used differently. A sword in one master's hand is like a precious blade, in another's hand, it might as well be a broken rod.



    Stop arguing.
    What? Can't argue properly so you're resorting to that?

    What do you think you're achieving? Do you seriously think you're convincing with name-calling, pert answers, ignoring refutations and incomplete quotes engineered to prove only your point?
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 07-05-08 at 11:44 PM.

  5. #205
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    You can't compare XXDF and BMSG. BMSG >> XXDF since the energy given is "pure." I'm pretty sure this has been discussed to death. RWX has to forcibly convert the drained energy, and I'm sure there's a considerable amount of inefficiency. Not the mention the process almost killed him.

    The fact of the matter is, LHC didn't practice for many years to compete. I already quoted that before as well. Even BEFORE practicing, he was already brushing elbows with the best. Yes, FQY retreated after the killings. But he was ALREADY well known before then. He was only "on par" with RWX and not completely dominant, despite his "godlike" sword skills. LHC practiced for ONE MONTH. That's the fastest learning of a primary skill in any novel.

    And you did catch me on a mistake. I misremembered the passage on the internal energy hit.

    But in almost every other circumstance, the conflicting energy streams proved a hindrance rather than a benefit. He has very limited staying power as a result of those streams.

    Finally:

    Chrono

    Here's what you said:
    "You know nothing about the Mongolian Composite Bow. How can you even compare them to other composite bows when they're clearly not the same except that they're composite bows?"

    The English lived 4000 miles away. They fought against Chinese composite bows, which is EXPLICITLY stated to be identical to mongol bows.

    Let me repeat. You said they are incomparably different. I have the concrete historical fact that not only are the comparable, but that they are IDENTICAL.

    So where was this tech advantage?

  6. #206
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Eh? So XF was fighting the Liao with a Chinese Bow? I could have sworn he was using something else. And gee whiz, I'm pretty sure GJ didn't fight the entire army with a bow either.

    I also like how you compared the Hungarian bow to the Mongolian one and then turn around and said that Chinese one was just as good.



    But that's not even the point. The point was that the Mongolians had an excellent bow (which even you conceded) and I asserted that was one of the factors against GJ.

    Mind you, he was able to hold all the a "hail of arrows" by himself, but while he was dealing with that and all the foot soldiers around him, the walls of organized spearmen could surround him and slowly smother him. Remember how I said the archers and spearmen surrounding him? Clearly indicating the organization against GJ.

    GJ was able to go here and there among the Mongolian army and none could stop him. This was after a long period of extended fighting already. This shows both GJ's incredible power and his endurance.



    But seriously, one can only fight so many soldiers when the numbers gets into the thousands. When fighters will slowly get tired after simply fighting a couple hours, how could one fight tens of thousands of soldiers? Even if you could keep up an average rate of one kill per second for extended periods of time, it would still take over two and half hours to kill 10,000 soldiers. With that many, you can't even let them come at you since after a hundred there'd a wall of bodies around you higher than a person. Then they could just set all that on fire and burn you out.

    The point is that charging through 10,000 soldiers is fine and dandy, but let's not confuse that with being able to kill 10,000 organized soldiers.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 07-06-08 at 12:01 AM.

  7. #207
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntingX View Post
    You can't compare XXDF and BMSG. BMSG >> XXDF since the energy given is "pure." I'm pretty sure this has been discussed to death. RWX has to forcibly convert the drained energy, and I'm sure there's a considerable amount of inefficiency. Not the mention the process almost killed him.
    You are 'sure' there is inefficiency. Is there any proof whatsoever? Or is this more of your personal views of 'author intention'? BMSG definitely is >> XXDF in a number of ways, but do you have any proof at all that the absorption is one of the ways? XXDF was able to draw energy through inanimate objects. BMSG NEVER showed this capability.

    Oh, and RWX (and LHC) did not have to 'forcibly convert' the drained energy. What he had to do was be able to suppress the drained energy when they tried to flare up against his own. The issue of conversion, much less conversion inefficiencies, NEVER came up. Which, incidentally, means that his own natural internal energy was enough to suppress that of the 8+ (at minimum) martial arts masters he drained. Again, please stop making stuff up/distorting the novel.

    The fact of the matter is, LHC didn't practice for many years to compete. I already quoted that before as well. Even BEFORE practicing, he was already brushing elbows with the best. Yes, FQY retreated after the killings. But he was ALREADY well known before then. He was only "on par" with RWX and not completely dominant, despite his "godlike" sword skills. LHC practiced for ONE MONTH. That's the fastest learning of a primary skill in any novel.
    His fights with Ren Woxing were BEFORE he learned DG9J. Again, CANON. RWX did not recognize DG9J as practiced by LHC. Oh, and the 'best' in XAJH were the likes of Fang Zheng, Ren Woxing, DFBB, et. al. He was NOT brushing elbows with 'the best'. Not to mention, RWX knocked him out just by LAUGHING a few times. During his duel, it was clear that his swordsmanship was superior to RWX, but RWX's internal energy was so profound that it knocked him and all four Jiangnan Playmates out.

    And you did catch me on a mistake. I misremembered the passage on the internal energy hit.

    But in almost every other circumstance, the conflicting energy streams proved a hindrance rather than a benefit. He has very limited staying power as a result of those streams.
    No disagreement, insofar as the energy streams prevented him from using his own (meagre) internal energy. I primarily contradicted you because it was yet another example of you making stuff up (while telling others to 'read the novels'; go figure).

    Oh, btw. I don't expect a person like you to tender an apology for all of your personal attacks and snide remarks, but don't expect to be able to pretend you didn't make them either by ignoring them when people call you out on them.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 07-05-08 at 11:58 PM.
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  8. #208
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntingX View Post
    You realize today there's pamphlets in Shaolin for the 18 dragon palms. It's the same temple. I wonder if the martial arts is the same.
    You realize Jin Yong writes FICTION, right?

    I hate to break your bubble, but no such Xiao Feng existed, Mongke was not killed by a one armed man on a condor, the pre-Ming Dynasty groupies were not led by a guy named Zhang Wuji, and Kang Xi did not have a friend named Wei Xiaobao.

    So what if there's a pamphlet for 18 Dragon Palms in modern day Shaolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntingX View Post
    From CC
    "Yes.

    BUT,

    In Xiao Feng's case, when he proclaimed that he had the ability to traverse an army of 10,000+ people, there were hundreds of members of the Beggar's Union--and several other third party experts--present, who knew of Xiao Feng's prowess. They all agreed that Xiao Feng was not exaggerating.
    if traversing 10,000+ is the "feat" then there is no reason why you claim GJ cannot do the same.
    here is what you said below:

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntingX on GJ & Army
    Moving on to the Condor trilogy. It was stated repeatedly in the novel that no matter how high GJ's martial arts are, he cannot fight an army. That's why it was so bad for him to get surrounded in the battle for Xiangyang. So, GJ is not as dominant as XF.
    there were more than 100,000+ mongol soldiers invading Xiang Yang.

    in chapter 49 ROCH ed2: 忽听得城下蒙古兵齐呼:“万岁,万岁,万万岁!”呼声自远而近,如
    潮水涌近,到后来十余万人齐声高呼,真如天崩地裂一般

    while it was said that the last invasion was the largest in numbers...the difference should not be as vast as 10,000 vs. 100,000+ soldiers. thus, even if GJ could "travel between 10,000 soldier", there is no reason why he shouldn't be afraid of being surrounded.
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 07-06-08 at 12:12 AM.

  9. #209
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    HuntingX:

    Technically, you haven't broken any rules, but a little tact and diplomacy would be helpful. We generally don't conduct discussions here like tournaments.

  10. #210
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    RE RYY: Not to mention, there were NO elite martial artists in the Liao camp. Not one. Whereas there were many in Khubilai Khan's army. That played a huge difference as well. And in addition, we know that, despite everything, Guo Jing DID break through the army.
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  11. #211
    Senior Member HuangYushi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntingX View Post
    <snip> ... I think the textual evidence is overwhelming. <snip>
    Let's see some of these textual evidence in your subsequent posts, regardless of which points and whose views you are referring to (including your own). It doesn't matter if the text quoted is in Chinese or translated into English (I'd welcome even Vietnamese and Indonesian translations, since there are many forum members here who read these languages fluently), but they should all come with proper chapter references, so that we can all agree unanimously with your views.

    HYS
    Last edited by HuangYushi; 07-06-08 at 06:17 AM. Reason: Typo.
    Jin Yong's Ode to Gallantry [侠客行].
    Quote Originally Posted by atlantean0208
    what about SPT, I need my SPT fix ASAP, pretty pleaseeeee...
    Soon ... SOON!

  12. #212
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Incidentally, after rereading some of the relevant chapters in ROCH, I'd like to propose the Spear as the Anti-Arrow weapon of choice.

    When HR and the Greats were traversing the Mongolian camps, they used spears to guard themselves from arrows and were successful. It was only until ZBT dropped his spear, grabbed two torches and started to burn things that he got three arrows in his back.

    Likewise, GJ dual-wielded spears and was untouchable by a hailstorm of arrows until his horse was finally shot out from under him.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    at least above the greats. was there a disagreement about that?
    I just think it's interesting. 5+ years ago, it was generally accepted that DGQB and Huang Shang were probably roughly equal. It seems that DGQB's ranking goes up a bit every year as people here at SPCNET continues to lavish hero-worship praise on DGQB, even though there's very little to no evidence to support much of what is said about him. For DGQB to be on the same level as Sweeper Monk, DGQB would have to be able to take a full force hit from Xiao Feng and be able to "kill" Murong Bo and Xiao Yuanshan with a tap. Even if we were to assume that DGQB was better than Yang Guo or Linghu Chong, there is no evidence whatsoever that DGQB could accomplish what Sweeper Monk very clearly did. This is all hero-worship. I predict in a couple more years, DGQB will regularly be ranked higher than Sweeper Monk.

  14. #214
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Huh, if anything I'd say DGQB's credit has been dropping precipitously.

    Few people ever seriously thought DGQB was as powerful as Sweeps even if many believed he was stronger than the Greats.


    It seems to be the case that DGQB is often downplayed to even below the WCY or the ROCH Greats occasionally nowadays on the account that "he had no good opponents" or "he retired early" or "he's just a crazy guy with wild claims".

    The very fact you said "if we assume he was better than YG or LHC" shows this trend. I highly doubt DGQB would be much above HS if at all, but surely there's no doubt he was above YG and LHC?
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 07-07-08 at 12:26 PM.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    Incidentally, after rereading some of the relevant chapters in ROCH, I'd like to propose the Spear as the Anti-Arrow weapon of choice.

    When HR and the Greats were traversing the Mongolian camps, they used spears to guard themselves from arrows and were successful. It was only until ZBT dropped his spear, grabbed two torches and started to burn things that he got three arrows in his back.

    Likewise, GJ dual-wielded spears and was untouchable by a hailstorm of arrows until his horse was finally shot out from under him.
    Presumably if the spear is rotated quickly enough, it can present enough of a barrier either by cutting the arrow's path entirely, or deflecting it enough so it doesn't do much damage. There are some historical accounts of eastern warriors (Japanese or Chinese, I can't remember which) cutting arrows from the air, aided by a sturdy suit of armour. The Macedonian phalanx's arrow protection also works on roughly the same basis, by presenting a thicket of pikes which any falling arrow is likely to deflect off.

  16. #216
    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    I just think it's interesting. 5+ years ago, it was generally accepted that DGQB and Huang Shang were probably roughly equal. It seems that DGQB's ranking goes up a bit every year as people here at SPCNET continues to lavish hero-worship praise on DGQB, even though there's very little to no evidence to support much of what is said about him. For DGQB to be on the same level as Sweeper Monk, DGQB would have to be able to take a full force hit from Xiao Feng and be able to "kill" Murong Bo and Xiao Yuanshan with a tap. Even if we were to assume that DGQB was better than Yang Guo or Linghu Chong, there is no evidence whatsoever that DGQB could accomplish what Sweeper Monk very clearly did. This is all hero-worship. I predict in a couple more years, DGQB will regularly be ranked higher than Sweeper Monk.
    He doesn't need to kill MRB or XYS with a tap to be on the same level. He just needs to beat them rather easily and/or stand up to Sweeps in direct combat. The result of it isn't the exact same moves or stances, but the end result (and the only thing that matters) is the result of combat. If he can beat people a level below Sweeps, then he would naturally be at Sweeps level.

    On why DGQB is ranked higher than Huang Shang, it's because FQY said that he took on the martial world and no one so much as made him defend. Considering HS and DGQB were likely contemporaries (DGQB is also a likely contemporary of people like Duan Yu and Xu Zhu), it would only make sense to rank him there.

    It's not 'hero-worship.' It's logically (as I have already proven) given him credence for his obvious ability, and giving him some room for error given the vagueness of his actual level. As RYY said, I've already shown this, if you chose not to accept it, it's your state of denial, not anyone else's hero-worship.

  17. #217
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post

    It's not 'hero-worship.' It's logically (as I have already proven) given him credence for his obvious ability, and giving him some room for error given the vagueness of his actual level. As RYY said, I've already shown this, if you chose not to accept it, it's your state of denial, not anyone else's hero-worship.
    although i do question the DGQB & Huang Shang being contempoaries part...still that's aside from the debate.
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 07-07-08 at 04:39 PM.

  18. #218
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    The were time contemporaries but I have my doubts as to whether they met up. HS secluded himself to create 9 Yin and DGQB secluded himself early on too.


    As another sidenote, I've reread the GJ versus the Mongolian Warriors passage again and it's interesting to note that GJ had successfully gotten away from the warriors and would've had a clean getaway if not for YG (robably not one of the moments YG would've looked back at and be proud of). This was after the stint with YG's fake internal injury and the wall-climbing incident so it's not like GJ was completely fresh.

  19. #219
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    I just think it's interesting. 5+ years ago, it was generally accepted that DGQB and Huang Shang were probably roughly equal. It seems that DGQB's ranking goes up a bit every year as people here at SPCNET continues to lavish hero-worship praise on DGQB, even though there's very little to no evidence to support much of what is said about him. For DGQB to be on the same level as Sweeper Monk, DGQB would have to be able to take a full force hit from Xiao Feng and be able to "kill" Murong Bo and Xiao Yuanshan with a tap. Even if we were to assume that DGQB was better than Yang Guo or Linghu Chong, there is no evidence whatsoever that DGQB could accomplish what Sweeper Monk very clearly did. This is all hero-worship. I predict in a couple more years, DGQB will regularly be ranked higher than Sweeper Monk.
    whatevers was "generally accepted 5+ years ago" does not necessarily make it "correct". the character DGQB has not changed since JY wrote about him in the 50s. if it were "hero worship" for DGQB, it would make sense for him to be worshiped 5 years ago, also. don't you think you?

    although here is the reason why DGQB's claims are generally accepted true...because I believe (and I think most people believe) that is JY's intentions. If JY wanted you to believe otherwise, he would most likely SPECIFICALLY state otherwise (ie. the creator of Qian Kun Da Nuo Yi). I have high doubts that JY meant for his readers to imagine on their own that DGQB is a similar case to QKDNY's creator.

    As another sidenote, I've reread the GJ versus the Mongolian Warriors passage again and it's interesting to note that GJ had successfully gotten away from the warriors and would've had a clean getaway if not for YG (robably not one of the moments YG would've looked back at and be proud of). This was after the stint with YG's fake internal injury and the wall-climbing incident so it's not like GJ was completely fresh.
    i suppose if he can hold them off for such a long time, running away shouldn't be a difficult task.
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 07-07-08 at 04:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    He doesn't need to kill MRB or XYS with a tap to be on the same level. He just needs to beat them rather easily and/or stand up to Sweeps in direct combat. The result of it isn't the exact same moves or stances, but the end result (and the only thing that matters) is the result of combat. If he can beat people a level below Sweeps, then he would naturally be at Sweeps level.
    What was the caliber of DGQB's opponents? Show me someone he fought that proves your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    On why DGQB is ranked higher than Huang Shang, it's because FQY said that he took on the martial world and no one so much as made him defend. Considering HS and DGQB were likely contemporaries (DGQB is also a likely contemporary of people like Duan Yu and Xu Zhu), it would only make sense to rank him there.
    Wang Chongyang also took on the martial world and no one under heaven ever defeated him. By your logic, we should rank Wang Chongyang and Dugu Qiubai more closely. They were also, likely, near contempories.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    It's not 'hero-worship.' It's logically (as I have already proven) given him credence for his obvious ability, and giving him some room for error given the vagueness of his actual level. As RYY said, I've already shown this, if you chose not to accept it, it's your state of denial, not anyone else's hero-worship.
    It's certainly logical to rank him high, at least on the level of Yang Guo and the other Greats. But to rank him with Sweeper Monk, without proof, is a leap of faith.

    You haven't proven anything. Because, you've based your argument on unproven assumptions and using them as statements of fact.
    Last edited by Dennis Chen; 07-07-08 at 05:35 PM.

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