Originally Posted by
Dennis Chen
-snip-
Jesus Flipping Christ.
I've entertained you enough. I've already broken down why your argument is irrational. I've already shown that you repeat the same things ad nauseum (like a windup doll; hence not ad hominem). Though, I suppose you just want to tout the same things over and over again as if they make more sense the more times you said it.
Here's my gift to you:
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Originally Posted by
Dennis Chen
So we go back to one of my original assertions. We don't know enough about DGQB to rank him at all.
You're right. That means that the only conclusion that can be drawn is that it's inconclusive.
NO SHIT, SHERLOCK?!
Notice how I said this LAST POST:
I proved he should be at least noticeably stronger than DFBB, YG, and LHC. Furthermore, I issued the
true statement that his maximum is not established.
Notice how this is NOT what you said:
And there's no proof that DGQB was any higher than Level 80.
This argument is wrong on several levels. As I have shown, if DFBB is level 80, DGQB should be higher. Thus, that is proof that he should be higher than 80.
Secondly, this statement assumes that he should be ranked 80 and that he is overranked with unproven statements like this:
Yang Guo's greatest skill was his own creation.
The sword was DGQB's path to enlightenment. Given his unwaning ego, I'd say DGQB never reached true enlightenment.
As idiotic as the straw man that DGQB can defeat all opponents just because he said so?
Fact is that he isn't the only one that said so. FQY said so. It was repeated again in DOMD. There is NO scrap of evidence that he was lying. Again, when there is overwhelming proof that he wasn't lying, you must prove that he is. If he was a fraud, you don't think Jin Yong would have communicated to us that it wasn't true?
And then you make unproven arguments like Sad Palms > HIS in an effort to diminish his abilities. When you grasp at straws like this (especially when you didn't prove it), it usually indicates you are LOSING THE ARGUMENT.
You would rather assume that he's definitively NOT at Sweepers Level when there IS NO EVIDENCE to support it. This is a false conclusion and an abuse of the transitive property.
As I said, make your argument. You can prove that DGQB is overranked by doing a few simple things:
1.) Establish DGQB's limit by comparing him to a known quantity that beat him while DGQB was in his prime. Thus, you can prove that DBQB's best is inferior to the known quantity's
2.) Establish DGQB's limit by comparing him to a known quantity that he barely beat while DGQB is in his prime. Thus you can reasonably infer that his maximum is roughly in the same neighborhood.
3.) Establish an unbiased and fair assessment of his abilities based upon feats that he can't do but known quantities can. Thus you can infer that his abilities are inferior to the known quantity.
4.) Establish an unbiased and fair assesment of his abilities based upon feats that he can barely do that known quantities also can do. Thus you can infer that his ability is just greater than the known quantity.
It's amazing how I have to form an argument for you.
Until you do one of these four, you can continue to live in your logically unsupported argument that DGQB's life was a lie and he really do anything that he claimed.
Originally Posted by
Dennis Chan
Ad hominem.
Funny that you marked these valid points "ad hominem":
Originally Posted by
Me
Let's assume everything DGQB said in his tomb, everything mentioned in DOMD, and everything FQY said is completely false!
Not ad hominem.
This is exactly what you're doing. You are now resorting to trying to discredit DGQB by claiming everything we know about him is a lie.
Originally Posted by
Me
Which isn't proof that Sad Palms > HIS. Sorry.
This isn't ad hominem.
I did show that you didn't prove Sad Palms > HIS. It's not my fault that you can't prove it.
Originally Posted by
Me
Your entire argument basically boils down to "We never see DGQB so he must be crappier than Sweeps."
Again, true. That IS your argument. It's not my fault you don't have a better one.
Meanwhile, a statement like this definitely IS ad hominem:
Originally Posted by
Dennis Chen
I'm beginning to feel like I'm arguing against a Jehovah's Witness as to whether or not God exists.
You never showed where my logic was invalid. Thus, this statement is an uncalled for and unsubstantiated attack upon my person.
So let's recap:
1.) You repeat the same thing over and over again:
you have no proof
[...]
you have no proof
[...]
there is no proof
No really?
There is no proof either way. There is logical reason why we should suspect that he is there, as I have said, and as Ren Wo Xing said.
Show me one of these opponents.
[...]
Show me one of these opponents.
[...]
Show me one of these opponents.
[...]
Show me one of these opponents.
You know well that there aren't opponents to show. That
does not mean you have the right to assume that they were only the level of Quanzhen disciples. THAT assumption demands proof. You haven't.
As I already said, in order for him to proclaim himself number 1 (and to have this statement corroborated in SPW and DOMD), he would reasonably
have to defeat others that were considered contenders for the #1 spot. Beating #50912 doesn't prove anything.
By repeating the same thing over and over again (ad nauseum), you are acting like a windup doll. Also Fact.
This is not ad hominem, because I am not attacking your person, only remarking upon the curious manner you attempt to conduct an "argument."
2.) Your reading comprehension is truly appalling.I say:You would be an idiot to claim that [Wang Chongyang] would win. The mystery opponent could be Spiderman, it could be the Hulk, it could be Galactus. The fact that DGQB's martial level is only explained in philosophical terms and is still shrouded in mystery, you would be a similar idiot to dock him points for something you don't know. Period. QED. Done.
You say:By your logic, since Wang Chongyang was undefeated under all of heaven, Wang Chongyang, of course.
O Rly? I actually believe that
by my logic, I just said that it would be STUPID to say Wang Chongyang would win.
I say:he is, at the very least, stronger than YG and LHC (and arguably, much stronger); and logically, should be considerably stronger than DFBB. His ambiguity and author intention (including being mentioned in DOMD just to bring up the 'he's badass' card) gives him enough room that ranking him with Sweeper Monk is not an impossibility.
You say:It's not logic. It's a leap of faith. There is no proof that DGQB was on the level of Sweeper Monk. None.
No really? I didn't say I proved he's on the level of Sweeper Monk. Again, I asked you to show me where I said that. You didn't do this, but then cried foul when I called you on poor reading comprehension.
You then proceeded to repeat the same broken point over and over again as if that was a valid argument. Again, if I'm wrong,
prove it.
If you continually "reply" with something that shows you didn't read or comprehend what I just posted, I think I'm fair in attacking your appalling reading comprehension. This is not ad hominem. In fact, debating
requires you to understand the argument the opposition is using.
Finally, you don't understand that in the case of absence of proof, we are left to come to our own conclusions, especially when there is reason to assume that he is that good.
These reasons are simple:
1.) He mastered the techniques that (when incomplete/unmastered) made YG and LHC amongst the strongest in their era. There is no "footnote" like with the creator of QKDNY or Elephant Sutra, where the creators did NOT master it.
In fact, it was said in the novel that he reached a MUCH HIGHER level of his ability than any of the guys that picked up his skills/philosophy (YG/FQY/LHC), since he reached the "no sword" level when YG never even got to the "wood sword" level.
2.) He represented the zenith/acme of Taoist enlightenment. Just like how Sweeper represented the zenith/acme of Buddhist enlightenment.
3.) He was regarded as the "number 1 fighter under heaven," by himself, by FQY, and again in DOMD, hundreds of years later. Out of all the #1 fighters declared through history, you think that the ONE fraud is referenced hundreds of years later in DOMD? Okay...
It's MUCH MORE LIKELY that the guy mentioned in DOMD (hundreds of years later) is notable because he was not only the best by his era, but because he dominated his era (not even needing to defend).
4.) In order to be regarded as the #1 guy, he would most likely have to have fought others that were considered contenders for the #1 guy. Very few people would get legitimately crowned the best by beating lackies.
5.) JY's intention is to create an unbelievable swordsman figure. His technique has a stance to break EVERY CONCEIVABLE technique (XL18Z included). His first stance alone took FQY 3 months to understand, and SPW noted that the harder it takes to learn, the stronger the technique. When a character is introduced off-panel (with no feats), it is the author's intention that is most important.
Because of the above (which indicate that he is well above the guys ranked near the top of the rankings), and because there is NO ARGUMENT/EVIDENCE to the contrary, it is thus not an invalid argument (aka it is okay) to believe that he is on the same par as Sweeper Monk.
Whether or not you like it or accept it is entirely up to you. I for one am done talking to a stone wall. You can go believe whatever you want, just stop making illogical posts. Capsiche?