Warning: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is deprecated, use preg_replace_callback instead in ..../includes/class_bbcode.php on line 2958
Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart - Page 13
Page 13 of 66 FirstFirst ... 3456789101112131415161718192021222363 ... LastLast
Results 241 to 260 of 1303

Thread: Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

  1. #241
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    hell in the middle of nowhere
    Posts
    3,240

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    What is this fact? That DGQB said he was the most powerful? No proof there. That his kung fu allowed Yang Guo and LHC to become powerful? It's been established that the strength of the kung fu is not a correlation as to how powerful it's creator is.
    more proof for it than against it. i hate to sound like a certain someone, i think JY's intentions are pretty clear.

    if Jin Yong wanted you to doubt DGQB's claims and his mastery of his own art...i think he would specify so. i very highly doubt that JY's intentions were for the readers to doubt DGQB at all (or even pay this much attention to him...but that's beside the argument).

    now, i agree that there is not enough solid evidence to support that DGQB is at the same level as sweeper, but the same statistics also claims the opposite...due to the lack of solid evidence. until then everyone can believe whichevers they like. your claim that "DGQB is not Sweeper's level" holds the same weight as someone else's that "DBQB is Sweeper's level". end of story.

    however, if you place doubts on DGQB's claims, his mastery of his own arts, or simply dismiss his opponents as "lowly fighters"...then I beg to differ.
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 07-08-08 at 04:26 AM.

  2. #242
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    22,629

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    more proof for it than against it. i hate to sound like a certain someone, i think JY's intentions are pretty clear.

    if Jin Yong wanted you to doubt DGQB's claims and his mastery of his own art...i think he would specify so. i very highly doubt that JY's intentions were for the readers to doubt DGQB at all.
    I could replace "Dook Goo Kau Bai" with "Gwok Jing" in this statement, apply it to ROCH, and it could also work...but I'd catch hell for it because we didn't see Gwok Jing defeat the other Greats during ROCH.

  3. #243
    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,286

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    -snip-
    Jesus Flipping Christ.

    I've entertained you enough. I've already broken down why your argument is irrational. I've already shown that you repeat the same things ad nauseum (like a windup doll; hence not ad hominem). Though, I suppose you just want to tout the same things over and over again as if they make more sense the more times you said it.

    Here's my gift to you:



    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    So we go back to one of my original assertions. We don't know enough about DGQB to rank him at all.



    You're right. That means that the only conclusion that can be drawn is that it's inconclusive.
    NO SHIT, SHERLOCK?!

    Notice how I said this LAST POST:
    I proved he should be at least noticeably stronger than DFBB, YG, and LHC. Furthermore, I issued the true statement that his maximum is not established.
    Notice how this is NOT what you said:

    And there's no proof that DGQB was any higher than Level 80.
    This argument is wrong on several levels. As I have shown, if DFBB is level 80, DGQB should be higher. Thus, that is proof that he should be higher than 80.

    Secondly, this statement assumes that he should be ranked 80 and that he is overranked with unproven statements like this:

    Yang Guo's greatest skill was his own creation.
    The sword was DGQB's path to enlightenment. Given his unwaning ego, I'd say DGQB never reached true enlightenment.
    As idiotic as the straw man that DGQB can defeat all opponents just because he said so?
    Fact is that he isn't the only one that said so. FQY said so. It was repeated again in DOMD. There is NO scrap of evidence that he was lying. Again, when there is overwhelming proof that he wasn't lying, you must prove that he is. If he was a fraud, you don't think Jin Yong would have communicated to us that it wasn't true?

    And then you make unproven arguments like Sad Palms > HIS in an effort to diminish his abilities. When you grasp at straws like this (especially when you didn't prove it), it usually indicates you are LOSING THE ARGUMENT.

    You would rather assume that he's definitively NOT at Sweepers Level when there IS NO EVIDENCE to support it. This is a false conclusion and an abuse of the transitive property.

    As I said, make your argument. You can prove that DGQB is overranked by doing a few simple things:

    1.) Establish DGQB's limit by comparing him to a known quantity that beat him while DGQB was in his prime. Thus, you can prove that DBQB's best is inferior to the known quantity's

    2.) Establish DGQB's limit by comparing him to a known quantity that he barely beat while DGQB is in his prime. Thus you can reasonably infer that his maximum is roughly in the same neighborhood.

    3.) Establish an unbiased and fair assessment of his abilities based upon feats that he can't do but known quantities can. Thus you can infer that his abilities are inferior to the known quantity.

    4.) Establish an unbiased and fair assesment of his abilities based upon feats that he can barely do that known quantities also can do. Thus you can infer that his ability is just greater than the known quantity.

    It's amazing how I have to form an argument for you.

    Until you do one of these four, you can continue to live in your logically unsupported argument that DGQB's life was a lie and he really do anything that he claimed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chan
    Ad hominem.
    Funny that you marked these valid points "ad hominem":

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    Let's assume everything DGQB said in his tomb, everything mentioned in DOMD, and everything FQY said is completely false!
    Not ad hominem.

    This is exactly what you're doing. You are now resorting to trying to discredit DGQB by claiming everything we know about him is a lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    Which isn't proof that Sad Palms > HIS. Sorry.
    This isn't ad hominem.

    I did show that you didn't prove Sad Palms > HIS. It's not my fault that you can't prove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    Your entire argument basically boils down to "We never see DGQB so he must be crappier than Sweeps."
    Again, true. That IS your argument. It's not my fault you don't have a better one.

    Meanwhile, a statement like this definitely IS ad hominem:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen
    I'm beginning to feel like I'm arguing against a Jehovah's Witness as to whether or not God exists.
    You never showed where my logic was invalid. Thus, this statement is an uncalled for and unsubstantiated attack upon my person.

    So let's recap:

    1.) You repeat the same thing over and over again:
    you have no proof

    [...]

    you have no proof

    [...]

    there is no proof
    No really?

    There is no proof either way. There is logical reason why we should suspect that he is there, as I have said, and as Ren Wo Xing said.

    Show me one of these opponents.

    [...]

    Show me one of these opponents.


    [...]

    Show me one of these opponents.


    [...]

    Show me one of these opponents.
    You know well that there aren't opponents to show. That does not mean you have the right to assume that they were only the level of Quanzhen disciples. THAT assumption demands proof. You haven't.

    As I already said, in order for him to proclaim himself number 1 (and to have this statement corroborated in SPW and DOMD), he would reasonably have to defeat others that were considered contenders for the #1 spot. Beating #50912 doesn't prove anything.

    By repeating the same thing over and over again (ad nauseum), you are acting like a windup doll. Also Fact.

    This is not ad hominem, because I am not attacking your person, only remarking upon the curious manner you attempt to conduct an "argument."
    2.) Your reading comprehension is truly appalling.
    I say:
    You would be an idiot to claim that [Wang Chongyang] would win. The mystery opponent could be Spiderman, it could be the Hulk, it could be Galactus. The fact that DGQB's martial level is only explained in philosophical terms and is still shrouded in mystery, you would be a similar idiot to dock him points for something you don't know. Period. QED. Done.
    You say:
    By your logic, since Wang Chongyang was undefeated under all of heaven, Wang Chongyang, of course.
    O Rly? I actually believe that by my logic, I just said that it would be STUPID to say Wang Chongyang would win.

    I say:
    he is, at the very least, stronger than YG and LHC (and arguably, much stronger); and logically, should be considerably stronger than DFBB. His ambiguity and author intention (including being mentioned in DOMD just to bring up the 'he's badass' card) gives him enough room that ranking him with Sweeper Monk is not an impossibility.
    You say:
    It's not logic. It's a leap of faith. There is no proof that DGQB was on the level of Sweeper Monk. None.
    No really? I didn't say I proved he's on the level of Sweeper Monk. Again, I asked you to show me where I said that. You didn't do this, but then cried foul when I called you on poor reading comprehension.

    You then proceeded to repeat the same broken point over and over again as if that was a valid argument. Again, if I'm wrong, prove it.

    If you continually "reply" with something that shows you didn't read or comprehend what I just posted, I think I'm fair in attacking your appalling reading comprehension. This is not ad hominem. In fact, debating requires you to understand the argument the opposition is using.

    Finally, you don't understand that in the case of absence of proof, we are left to come to our own conclusions, especially when there is reason to assume that he is that good.

    These reasons are simple:

    1.) He mastered the techniques that (when incomplete/unmastered) made YG and LHC amongst the strongest in their era. There is no "footnote" like with the creator of QKDNY or Elephant Sutra, where the creators did NOT master it.

    In fact, it was said in the novel that he reached a MUCH HIGHER level of his ability than any of the guys that picked up his skills/philosophy (YG/FQY/LHC), since he reached the "no sword" level when YG never even got to the "wood sword" level.

    2.) He represented the zenith/acme of Taoist enlightenment. Just like how Sweeper represented the zenith/acme of Buddhist enlightenment.

    3.) He was regarded as the "number 1 fighter under heaven," by himself, by FQY, and again in DOMD, hundreds of years later. Out of all the #1 fighters declared through history, you think that the ONE fraud is referenced hundreds of years later in DOMD? Okay...

    It's MUCH MORE LIKELY that the guy mentioned in DOMD (hundreds of years later) is notable because he was not only the best by his era, but because he dominated his era (not even needing to defend).

    4.) In order to be regarded as the #1 guy, he would most likely have to have fought others that were considered contenders for the #1 guy. Very few people would get legitimately crowned the best by beating lackies.

    5.) JY's intention is to create an unbelievable swordsman figure. His technique has a stance to break EVERY CONCEIVABLE technique (XL18Z included). His first stance alone took FQY 3 months to understand, and SPW noted that the harder it takes to learn, the stronger the technique. When a character is introduced off-panel (with no feats), it is the author's intention that is most important.

    Because of the above (which indicate that he is well above the guys ranked near the top of the rankings), and because there is NO ARGUMENT/EVIDENCE to the contrary, it is thus not an invalid argument (aka it is okay) to believe that he is on the same par as Sweeper Monk.



    Whether or not you like it or accept it is entirely up to you. I for one am done talking to a stone wall. You can go believe whatever you want, just stop making illogical posts. Capsiche?
    Last edited by ChanceEncounter; 07-08-08 at 04:59 AM.

  4. #244
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    hell in the middle of nowhere
    Posts
    3,240

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I could replace "Dook Goo Kau Bai" with "Gwok Jing" in this statement, apply it to ROCH, and it could also work...but I'd catch hell for it because we didn't see Gwok Jing defeat the other Greats during ROCH.
    oh really? b/c portions of an art that GJ created had propelled two main characters by great levels or that GJ had left a legacy that no opponent had ever forced him to defend?

    i would love to see something equivalent for you to repleace DBQB with GJ, dear Ken

  5. #245
    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,286

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I could replace "Dook Goo Kau Bai" with "Gwok Jing" in this statement, apply it to ROCH, and it could also work...but I'd catch hell for it because we didn't see Gwok Jing defeat the other Greats during ROCH.
    Where was Guo Jing claimed as the best in ROCH?

    If there was even a passing mention at the end of ROCH, the argument that he was the best would not only be valid, it would almost certainly be sealed.

    Dennis has taken denial to a new level by claiming that what DGQB said (and what was corroborated in SPW and DOMD) is false or somehow unreliable. When there are multiple sources to the affirmative, and none to the contrary, the burden of proof to disprove is on him. This is how it works in logic, in a court of law, etc.

  6. #246
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    22,629

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    Dennis has taken denial to a new level by claiming that what DGQB said (and what was corroborated in SPW and DOMD) is false or somehow unreliable.
    Actually, all we have for certain is that Yeung Gor, Fung Ching Yeung, and Ling Wu Chung...each tested and proven genuine martial arts talents...took a good idea and ran with it, getting some pretty good results. Nobody ever said that Dook Goo Kau Bai didn't leave behind some great ideas that gifted swordsmanship learners could really benefit from.

    But that, in of itself, isn't proof that Dook Goo Kau Bai would definitely have beaten the other, known (and tested) Greats of the Jin Yong canon.

  7. #247
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    hell in the middle of nowhere
    Posts
    3,240

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Actually, all we have for certain is that Yeung Gor, Fung Ching Yeung, and Ling Wu Chung...each tested and proven genuine martial arts talents...took a good idea and ran with it, getting some pretty good results. Nobody ever said that Dook Goo Kau Bai didn't leave behind some great ideas that gifted swordsmanship learners could really benefit from..

    But that, in of itself, isn't proof that Dook Goo Kau Bai would definitely have beaten the other, known (and tested) Greats of the Jin Yong canon.
    right, b/c the guy who thought of (and practiced) something that none of these "talents" could probably ever have thought of might not be as "talented" or "skilled" as them.

    really ken...
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 07-08-08 at 05:13 AM.

  8. #248
    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,286

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Actually, all we have for certain is that Yeung Gor, Fung Ching Yeung, and Ling Wu Chung...each tested and proven genuine martial arts talents...took a good idea and ran with it, getting some pretty good results. Nobody ever said that Dook Goo Kau Bai didn't leave behind some great ideas that gifted swordsmanship learners could really benefit from.

    But that, in of itself, isn't proof that Dook Goo Kau Bai would definitely have beaten the other, known (and tested) Greats of the Jin Yong canon.
    And Ken, this is a distortion of what I said.

    I didn't say that this is proof that he could. I said that we have no proof that DGQB's statement that he was #1 is false or invalid. Thus, unless we do, we have to assume that in JY canon, it is true.

    I would say that the 5 points I brought up in the end of my second to last post is the reason why DGQB would beat other greats in Jin Yong canon. But, to make a relative comparison...:

    The fact that, if we have Yang Guo and LHC as rough barometers, since DGQB reached the wooden sword (said to be separated from the HIS by INTERNAL) and beyond, he is both more skilled and has more internal energy than Yang Guo. Since JY himself said that "Yang Guo's [swordsmanship] is not very advanced," it's logical to conclude DGQB is far better. Thus he is much better than YG in swordsmanship and considerably better (arguably much better) in internal.

    In LHC's case, we have DG9J, but he never mastered the last stance and FQY has stated that he would likely need 20 years to master to where he can beat the key figures. Since he never explicitly mastered DG9J, much less ascended to the level of internal where he could wield the HIS and beyond, it's also logical to conclude he is far inferior to DGQB. Since LHC does not even have as much internal as YG, DGQB would obviously be far superior in this category too.

    Since YG and LHC were amongst the best of their era, it is thus thirdly logical to conclude that DGQB (who was, as I shown above, logically far above either of them) would be the best.

    For DFBB, as JY said, he thinks DG9J > Sunflower/Pixie. Unless you are trying to make the argument that DFBB is more familiar/better trained in the Sunflower (the incomplete version) than DGQB himself at DG9J, I think it's fair to say that this too would end badly for DFBB. It's thus logical to conclude that DGQB would handle the unquestioned best in the XAJH book. Not to mention, DFBB has shown some of the most impressive speed in the entire JY-universe.

    This doesn't even begin to cover the argument involving JY's intention, and his similar level of enlightenment when compared to Sweeper Monk. As mentioned, it's fair to say that the two are two sides to one coin.

  9. #249
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Currently DC
    Posts
    6,553

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Actually, all we have for certain is that Yeung Gor, Fung Ching Yeung, and Ling Wu Chung...each tested and proven genuine martial arts talents...took a good idea and ran with it, getting some pretty good results. Nobody ever said that Dook Goo Kau Bai didn't leave behind some great ideas that gifted swordsmanship learners could really benefit from.

    But that, in of itself, isn't proof that Dook Goo Kau Bai would definitely have beaten the other, known (and tested) Greats of the Jin Yong canon.
    Ken, the only way that argument works is if you are also making the claim that DGQB was lying about each stage he passed through and mastered.

    Look. Yang Guo, after learning/just beginning to learn the Heavy Sword phase (which is a full TWO phases behind what DGQB claims to have reached), is already in greater awe and shows more respect for than he ever has been of any of the martial artists he's met thus far, including the Greats. He immediately thinks to himself that the Heavy Iron sword method (once again, TWO phases behind what DGQB reached) is definitely superior to the Jade Maiden swordplay, which is the penultimate martial arts of Lin Chaoying, a martial artist supposedly at the level of Wang Chongyang! After learning DGQB's Heavy Iron swordplay, he easily defeats Qiu Qianren, whom it was stated that Yideng only -might- be able to defeat with the combination of Xiantian and Yiyangzhi.

    With all this in mind, there is no way to make the claim that DGQB is weaker than the Greats, unless one also claims that DGQB lied about what he actually reached and is a fraud. But Jinyong praises him in THREE separate books, and has martial arts attributed to him push the fighters who learn it into the highest tiers of their time. Is him being a fraud really very likely?!
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

  10. #250
    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,286

    Default

    which is a full TWO phases behind what DGQB claims to have reached
    And if this follows in conventional JY 'level' system for techniques, the last few levels are always the hardest (e.g. 9 Yin, QKDNY, Elephant Sutra, DG9J) and provide the biggest gains. It's quite likely that the two levels that DGQB have on Yang Guo are the two BIGGEST differences in power.

    Not to mention, JY himself claims that Yang Guo "is not very advanced" in swordsmanship compared to DGQB himself, since he has no manuscript. If a "not very advanced" version of DGQB's swordsmanship is the best thing YG has ever encountered, how good is the REAL thing, except magnified by several levels?!

    Basically, DGQB is, for all intents and purposes, many levels above Yang Guo and the other Greats. And this cannot be argued without assuming that he's a fraud.

  11. #251
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    hell in the middle of nowhere
    Posts
    3,240

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    And if this follows in conventional JY 'level' system for techniques, the last few levels are always the hardest (e.g. 9 Yin, QKDNY, Elephant Sutra, DG9J) and provide the biggest gains. It's quite likely that the two levels that DGQB have on Yang Guo are the two BIGGEST differences in power.
    no argument on DGQB, but something i push on my own agenda
    minor pick on detail: i would like to say, "hardest levels" do not necessarily go with "biggest gains"

    it is also said that when one reaches the "peak", it becomes harder and harder to gain improvements. thus, even a small improvement can be considered significant. but "significant" does not necessarily mean "biggest"

  12. #252
    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,286

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    no argument on DGQB, but something i push on my own agenda
    minor pick on detail: i would like to say, "hardest levels" do not necessarily go with "biggest gains"

    it is also said that when one reaches the "peak", it becomes harder and harder to gain improvements. thus, even a small improvement can be considered significant. but "significant" does not necessarily mean "biggest"
    That's fair.

    Though it would depend on your interpretation of "biggest," I suppose. While generally speaking, once you get to the "peak," it is harder to gain improvements, but any little improvement that you do gain becomes more magnified in proportion as you near the asymptote.

    For example, let's set the "peak"/pinnacle of martial arts at 100%. Take someone at 99% of the theoretical "peak" compared to someone at 99.5% of the peak. That .5% basically means that he is only half as far away from the peak as the one who is at 99%. This becomes even more noticeable with say... 99% compared to 99.9%. That .9% of a gain basically means that you are 10 times closer to the peak than before.

    Let's apply this to say, Sweeper Monk. He could probably take several Xiao Fengs in combat if he really wanted to, but this does not mean that he can run several times faster or hit several times harder. The 'measurable' difference is not so vast, but the 'effective' difference is ENORMOUS.
    Last edited by ChanceEncounter; 07-08-08 at 05:56 AM.

  13. #253
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Currently DC
    Posts
    6,553

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    no argument on DGQB, but something i push on my own agenda
    minor pick on detail: i would like to say, "hardest levels" do not necessarily go with "biggest gains"

    it is also said that when one reaches the "peak", it becomes harder and harder to gain improvements. thus, even a small improvement can be considered significant. but "significant" does not necessarily mean "biggest"
    Once one has reached a 'plateau', it is indeed hard to make further improvement, but if one suddenly somehow reaches an entirely new, higher level, there is room for tremendous improvement. Yang Guo could have practiced the Heavy Iron sword for another ten years and his gains probably would have been relatively small (in fact, that is exactly what happened during the 18 year gap), but if he suddenly managed to transcend the Heavy Iron sword style and reached the wood style, that would be a total paradigm shift.

    To draw an analogy, at a certain point in time, bows and crossbows reached a point of development where it became extremely hard to squeak even a little more extra range or power out of them, because they were already so very well designed. There wasn't much room for improvement. But once we made the jump to guns, a total paradigm shift has occurred, and there is room now for tremendous improvement. I see the 'wooden sword' stage and the 'no sword' stage to be this sort of jump, based upon Jinyong's descriptions, just like how the heavy iron sword stage also was a huge, total jump from the previous stage. Here is the text. Judge for yourself.

    “Heavy sword with blunt edges, simplicity brings superiority. Before I reached the age of forty, I used it to roam the entire world under Heaven.”

    Yang Guo murmured the words “heavy sword with blunt edges, simplicity brings superiority” repeatedly. He seemed to have comprehended part of the idea, but the idea was still very vague in his head. There were many styles of sword arts in the world, but regardless of style or school, each sword art always emphasized flexibility and speed. How should this heavy sword be used? He couldn’t help imagining how the Senior Master had wielded the heavy sword and soon fell into a trance.

    [....]

    This kind of training went on for several days, and gradually, he was able to wield the heavy sword with better control. It almost felt as if the heavy sword was no longer as heavy as the time he first wielded it. In the meantime, he also came to realize that all the sword arts he had learned before were too intricate with too many fancy techniques. He kept thinking about Dugu Seeking-A-Loss’s words “heavy sword with blunt edges, simplicity brings superiority” on the slab stone. They had described a realm of sword art much more advanced compared to even the most ingenious sword techniques in the world.

    [....]

    After over months worth of sparring, with some hard effort, Yang Guo could actually take on the Divine Eagle’s mighty force head to head now. Each of his thrusts had also become so powerful that they would whistle in the air. He couldn’t help but feel very satisfied with himself. Since his skills in martial arts had advanced to a new level, the martial arts he learned before all seemed to be so insignificant. It was just like once one climbs to the top of Mount Tai, the whole world looked small and insignificant.
    Sure sounds like a paradigm shift to me!

    Incidentally, what were the martial arts he learned before? All Greats-level martial arts, from Lin Chaoying's, to Ouyang Feng's Toad Stance, to 9 Ying, to Hong Qigong's Dog-Beating Stick, and to Huang Yaoshi's Divine Snapping Fingers.

    This is why Yang Guo was in such total awe of DGQB. DGQB transcended the limits of martial arts (at least as far as swordsmanship went) and reached a completely new, different level, that was, according to Yang Guo, as far above the martial arts he had previously learned as the peak of Taishan Mountain was from the ground.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 07-08-08 at 06:03 AM.
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

  14. #254
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    3,580

    Default

    I was always frustrated that there were so many Dugu naysayers despite what I felt to be overwhelming evidence/intention, but I myself am not knowledgeable or eloquent enough to have argued for it. I'm glad you guys have taken up this enormous task!

  15. #255
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    318

    Default

    ok some disagreements and questions lol:

    its been a long time since i read XKX, is shi po tian really THAT powerful to be ranked at the top?

    is Duan yu that powerful? I thought he could not even control his 6MSJ to fire properly.

    Zhang wu ji should be as powerful, if not more powerful than xiao feng and xu zhu, JY himself said ZWJ is THE most powerful main character.

    cheng kun ranked too low IMO.

    yue bu qun after pixie should be as powerful as chong xu.

    Nimo Xing Yin Kexin Xiao Xiangzi ranked too high, especially yi kexin, he sucked.

    at least 2 guardians of ming cult are ranked way too low, xie xun made a bunch of people either dead or crazy merely by shouting at them.

    pre pixie yue bu qun is not that weak, he has purple mist divine skill after all. he made yu cang hai look like a fool by standing there calmly and not even turning to intercept yu cang hai's attacks. he should be as powerful as the likes of li mo chou.

  16. #256
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    449

    Default

    Wow, I'm impressed with this exchange regarding DGQB... but I'm not getting involved. Haha.

    As for the previous post, I think I'll leave it to the others to refute/explain the first few points. (especially zwj more powerful than xu zhu one. Everyone will kill me for it)

    cheng kun ranked too low IMO.
    Level 65 is PRETTY DAMN high already... How high you want him O_O

    yue bu qun after pixie should be as powerful as chong xu.
    Not sure about this. I would appreciate if someone can paste the fight between Yue Bu Qun and Zuo Leng Chan here for analysis. I think for the most part, ZLC was underestimating YBQ and completely taken by surprise. By the time he realized what happened, he was already blinded. So I didn't want to put YBQ that high.

    Furthermore, YBQ kind of got owned by LHC at the end. CX didnt'.

    Nimo Xing Yin Kexin Xiao Xiangzi ranked too high, especially yi kexin, he sucked. at least 2 guardians of ming cult are ranked way too low, xie xun made a bunch of people either dead or crazy merely by shouting at them.
    Kinda agree, but more info needed.

    pre pixie yue bu qun is not that weak, he has purple mist divine skill after all. he made yu cang hai look like a fool by standing there calmly and not even turning to intercept yu cang hai's attacks. he should be as powerful as the likes of li mo chou.
    He is considerably higher than Yu Cang Hai already. (42 to 36)
    Last edited by WuxiaMaster; 07-08-08 at 10:00 AM.

  17. #257
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    1,530

    Default

    I believe Jin Yong stated that Zhang Sanfeng is the single greatest martial artist to live in his canon. In which case, DGQB cannot be the greatest.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    And if this follows in conventional JY 'level' system for techniques, the last few levels are always the hardest (e.g. 9 Yin, QKDNY, Elephant Sutra, DG9J) and provide the biggest gains. It's quite likely that the two levels that DGQB have on Yang Guo are the two BIGGEST differences in power.

    Not to mention, JY himself claims that Yang Guo "is not very advanced" in swordsmanship compared to DGQB himself, since he has no manuscript. If a "not very advanced" version of DGQB's swordsmanship is the best thing YG has ever encountered, how good is the REAL thing, except magnified by several levels?!

    Basically, DGQB is, for all intents and purposes, many levels above Yang Guo and the other Greats. And this cannot be argued without assuming that he's a fraud.
    We've already established that the greatness of a kung fu does not always correlate to the actual martial arts level of it's creator. QKDNY, 9 Yang Shen Gong, etc. ZSF and Guo Xiang both had incomplete versions of 9 Yang Shen Gong. However, we know for sure that they were far above the person who created 9 Yang Shen Gong. We know for sure that ZSF was able to reach Greats level based on only 1/3rd of 9 Yang Shen Gong.

    Also, though Yang Guo's swordsmanship may not be close to DGQB's, there is no evidence that DGQB himself was "many levels" above Yang Guo. The HIS wasn't the only thing in Yang Guo's kung fu arsenal; YG may not be able to defeat DGQB with a sword, but there is inconclusive evidence to assume that DGQB's swordsmanship could defeat Yang Guo's Sad Palms.
    Last edited by Dennis Chen; 07-08-08 at 10:47 AM.

  18. #258
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,376

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by the.raven View Post
    Zhang wu ji should be as powerful, if not more powerful than xiao feng and xu zhu, JY himself said ZWJ is THE most powerful main character.
    Where did Jin Yong say that?
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  19. #259
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    2,858

    Default

    Seems pretty out of left-field to me too. Maybe (big maybe) in trained internal energy I guess.

    Besides, aren't XZ and DY technical main characters too?

  20. #260
    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,286

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    I believe Jin Yong stated that Zhang Sanfeng is the single greatest martial artist to live in his canon. In which case, DGQB cannot be the greatest.
    Quote please. In this case, Sweeper Monk can't be the greatest either.

    Of course, it's also possible he meant martial artist by having the biggest effect on the martial world, and not the most powerful of all his characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    We've already established that the greatness of a kung fu does not always correlate to the actual martial arts level of it's creator. QKDNY, 9 Yang Shen Gong, etc. ZSF and Guo Xiang both had incomplete versions of 9 Yang Shen Gong. However, we know for sure that they were far above the person who created 9 Yang Shen Gong. We know for sure that ZSF was able to reach Greats level based on only 1/3rd of 9 Yang Shen Gong.

    Also, though Yang Guo's swordsmanship may not be close to DGQB's, there is no evidence that DGQB himself was "many levels" above Yang Guo. The HIS wasn't the only thing in Yang Guo's kung fu arsenal; YG may not be able to defeat DGQB with a sword, but there is inconclusive evidence to assume that DGQB's swordsmanship could defeat Yang Guo's Sad Palms.
    Again, you are ignoring the objects in canon that disagree with you.

    Yang Guo's sad palm may be on the same tier as HIS, but he clearly regretted not bringing his HIS with him when fighting JLGS. This indicates two things: 1.) He did not reach the wooden sword, which would make the HIS obsolete. 2.) The HIS is at least on the same level as his sad palms, otherwise it would be stupid to regret not bringing something weaker than what you already have there (sad palms).

    Until you refute the above, I'm going to have to assume that you're just repeatedly denying it for no reason other than you hate DGQB.

    Furthermore, as for the greatness of the creator and the level of martial arts, this is not the case here. The "greatness" of the creator was stressed by THREE BOOKS throughout the JY canon, and there are no inconsistencies. Each time it was high praise (he took on the martial world, had no equal, did not even need to defend, couldn't find a match, etc). Furthermore, it is canonically stated that he reached a level of martial arts that NONE of the guys that learned his abilities ever did.

    This is NOT the same as QKDNY (who was explicitly stated that the creator did not master the later levels, or Elephant Sutra, where it was also explicitly stated that the creator went insane before mastering the last few levels). If DGQB did not master his own art, why did JY bring it upon us to mention that he did, and then tack a few extra tiers above what any of his protagonists did?

    In other words, your argument makes no logical sense. Ergo, proof by contradiction; he must be stronger than YG/LHC/FQY, and significantly too.

Similar Threads

  1. Your most disliked main character in Jinyong
    By aniking_8 in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 11-11-18, 01:24 AM
  2. Which female Character is the strongest in Jinyong?
    By aniking_8 in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 11-02-18, 09:00 AM
  3. Jinyong main character best!
    By aniking_8 in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: 01-17-17, 10:02 PM
  4. Replies: 27
    Last Post: 09-12-09, 08:43 AM
  5. Ranking of DGSD heroes below 4th level
    By PJ in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 04-05-06, 09:08 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •