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Thread: Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

  1. #261
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Once one has reached a 'plateau', it is indeed hard to make further improvement, but if one suddenly somehow reaches an entirely new, higher level, there is room for tremendous improvement. Yang Guo could have practiced the Heavy Iron sword for another ten years and his gains probably would have been relatively small (in fact, that is exactly what happened during the 18 year gap), but if he suddenly managed to transcend the Heavy Iron sword style and reached the wood style, that would be a total paradigm shift.
    i was not actually refering to the whole DGQB phenomenon specifically. just wanted to correlations to be generalized

    but either way, extra explainations are fine with me

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen
    I believe Jin Yong stated that Zhang Sanfeng is the single greatest martial artist to live in his canon. In which case, DGQB cannot be the greatest.
    No one said DGQB is the greatest. i personally think Zhang Sanfeng is underrated often times. JY also said somewhere that Sweeper was the most powerful in his novels.

    now, everyone knows that JY loves to contradict himself. however, these contradictions usually lie in the minor details. JY probably didn't give a crap about who is the "best" martial artist. He probably doesn't care which of the "greats" are the most powerful.

    but, if JY wanted you to beleive that DGQB lived a lie...i think that's pretty important and he won't forget to mention it somewhere in 3 novels.

  2. #262
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    It could be said inductively that Dugu Qiubai was superior than Yang Guo. But that argument cannot be supported deductively. I'm asking for the latter, but I keep getting the former.
    Last edited by Dennis Chen; 07-08-08 at 06:24 PM.

  3. #263
    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    It could be said inductively that Dugu Qiubai was superior than Yang Guo. But that argument cannot be supported deductively. I'm asking for the latter, but I keep getting the former.
    The issue is that in Jin Yong's world, Jin Yong's rules must be applied. So unless you are saying that DGQB is the ONLY case where superior techniqe AND superior internal does not lead to a superior fighter [via deduction], then you're right, I'm only giving you an inductive proof. Except, you seem not to understand deductive reasoning at all. If all A is part of B, and all B is part of C (such as ALL fighters with better technique and internal are better overall), by deduction, A is part of C.

    But if this "debate" has proven anything, it's that I can place the evidence and argument in front of you, and you'll still manage to try to ignore it (e.g. Dugu Qiubai is a fraud, Sad Palms > HIS, higher levels of mastery do not equate to higher martial arts, etcetera). The fact that you are using illogical and unsupported fanfiction to try to 'justify' your argument indicates just how weak your position is.

  4. #264
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    On Sad Palms being better than the Heavy Iron Sword Technique...

    I think there might be something to do this, because there isn't any good reason for Yeung Gor to trade down. At the beginning of the sixteen year interlude, the best martial art that Yeung Gor had was the Heavy Iron Sword Technique, but after the interlude, he was not seen using this skill again. His new default technique was his self-devised Sad Palms, and it was with the Sad Palms that he really, truly began to fight on equal terms with the other Greats (he had some lucky, circumstantial wins back in the Heavy Iron Sword days). As Yeung Gor's reputation as a martial artist had grown during the interlude, it makes little sense for him to "trade down" to a "weaker" Sad Palms from a "stronger" Heavy Iron Sword Technique.

  5. #265
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Perhaps, but all the Greats had a weapon technique as well as a bare-handed technique. It was clear in LOCH that the weapon technique made a Great even more dangerous from the fight between H7G and OYF. YG still had the HIS around up to the point he rejoined with XLN. This is inferred from the text saying that he traded his HIS for a normal sword so he could perform Jade Maiden.


    This also bring me to something I think may have been misinterpreted. JY stated that between fighters of very high caliber, it does not require weapons to determine who was better.

    It seems usually taken as to mean that a Great wouldn't be much stronger with a weapon compared to without.

    I'd argue that it means that between Greats, if they're equal as fighters, then their bare-handed and weapon technique would naturally be near each others'


    What this means is that OYF, if he prevailed convincingly over H7G in a bare-handed contest, would not need to compete again with their weapons to determine an "overall" winner. Rather, it would be given that he'd win again. It does not mean that OYF could fight (evenly) H7G using a weapon (H7G) without using a weapon himself (OYF).


    Of course, this isn't an exact measure so even at Great level, one might have somewhat stronger weaponry compared to bare-handed. The point is that the levels should converge as the overall ability increases.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 07-08-08 at 07:14 PM.

  6. #266
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    On Sad Palms being better than the Heavy Iron Sword Technique...

    I think there might be something to do this, because there isn't any good reason for Yeung Gor to trade down. At the beginning of the sixteen year interlude, the best martial art that Yeung Gor had was the Heavy Iron Sword Technique, but after the interlude, he was not seen using this skill again. His new default technique was his self-devised Sad Palms, and it was with the Sad Palms that he really, truly began to fight on equal terms with the other Greats (he had some lucky, circumstantial wins back in the Heavy Iron Sword days). As Yeung Gor's reputation as a martial artist had grown during the interlude, it makes little sense for him to "trade down" to a "weaker" Sad Palms from a "stronger" Heavy Iron Sword Technique.
    Not really. It's generally accepted that martial artists, even elite ones, are stronger with weapons than without; this was showed to be true for Greats level martial artists as well. Ouyang Feng, for example, was said to be more dangerous with his special serpent staff than without it. Yang Guo's bare-handed martial arts skills were relatively lacking before he developed his Sad Palms; this compensated for it somewhat. ChronoReverse explained it more in detail than I did.

    With regards to his two battles with Great-level fighters (QQR and JLGS), neither luck nor circumstance had anything to do with his victory over Qiu Qianren. It was a completely clean win, and fully demonstrated Yang Guo's superiority over him; there were no tricks, no advantages/disadvantages, nothing.

    In his battle with JLGS (where he had XLN on his back), Yang Guo again fully demonstrated superiority over JLGS. Yang Guo did not actually want to fight; it was JLGS who wanted to seize the opportunity to kill them. At this time, Yang Guo was totally immobile, because with XLN on his back, he was afraid that if he moved around, he would worsen her injuries. But even with such a huge advantage for JLGS, he was not only unable to penetrate Yang Guo's defense, but Yang Guo even shattered three out of his five wheels. It wasn't until JLGS started to strike at XLN that Yang Guo was forced into an internal energy competition with him.

    So after he learned the Heavy Iron sword combat method, Yang Guo definitely was already superior to the Greats-calibre fighters of the time.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 07-08-08 at 07:18 PM.
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    I can agree with that.


    It can also be said that YG just might prefer his own style.
    I mean he abandoned HIS for Wooden Sword, and after he got hella good at that he went on to his Emo Palm.

    Now is Emo Palm really is better than Wooden Sword..perhaps it goes a long way to saying the DGQB really isn't all he's craked up to be and a lot of it is legend and exageration..which isn't unreasonable.

    On the other hand, one is a weapon technique and the other is a palm technique...

    At the very end however I'm just gonna run with most of DGQB techniques were just crush opponent with internal power. With this YG built up his internal power to Great level in those 16 years...and then that too wa sincorporated into his Emo Palm just like the rest of the martial arts he knew.

    God knows where the I must be a quivering baby in order to use it effectively came from.

  8. #268
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    To be fair, a precious-type weapon like the HIS does skew things a lot.

    The weapon was unbreakable and unbelievably heavy. The advantage it brings is just as important as the strong internal energy YG also wielded (which was clearly inferior to GWM and probably even QQR's).

    This is just emphasized how much a weapon can help (and should help!).



    Incidentally, I think that DGQB's latter swords were more than simply crushing with internal power. I see no reason to not believe (and in fact have every reason to believe) that DGQB's Wooden Sword stage involved both great technique coupled with great internal power. YG's comprehension wasn't great enough to recreate such alleged techniques (self-admitted) so he tried to focus on internal energy. This didn't even come close to working since he wasn't even able to cut a tree all the way with the Wooden Sword.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 07-08-08 at 07:23 PM.

  9. #269
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    I believe in the final fight in the 2nd edition, Jinlun Fawang attacked Yang Guo with one of his wheels. Which is probably why Yang Guo regretted not having his own weapon. Ultimately, he didn't need it and defeated JLFW anyways.

  10. #270
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    He regretted with the earlier clash when his normal sword broke against GWM's wheels (although he disarmed GWM).

  11. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    He regretted with the earlier clash when his normal sword broke against GWM's wheels (although he disarmed GWM).
    With Sad Palms?

  12. #272
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    I think during the time of their battles QQR had fallen from great level.

    He probably hadn't fought for quite a while, hadn't been cultivating energy and all that.
    Plus he wasn't quite in his right mind and had expended a lot of energy attacking Yideng already. And as been said.,..YG was armed.

    As for against GWM...YG probably wasn't as handicapped as you make it, and in the end it was XNL needles that ultimately won it for them anyway.

  13. #273
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    I don't think Yeung Gor necessarily *wanted* to go into combat against the Golden Wheel Monk with an ordinary sword, but that's all he had at hand. He hadn't brought the Heavy Iron Sword with him (he didn't start the day expecting to go into combat against the Golden Wheel Monk), and all he had at hand was a garden-variety sword that Gwok Jing had shot to him with a bow.

  14. #274
    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I don't think Yeung Gor necessarily *wanted* to go into combat against the Golden Wheel Monk with an ordinary sword, but that's all he had at hand. He hadn't brought the Heavy Iron Sword with him (he didn't start the day expecting to go into combat against the Golden Wheel Monk), and all he had at hand was a garden-variety sword that Gwok Jing had shot to him with a bow.
    No, he brought a sword that broke. Then GJ shot another sword at him with an arrow, but that too was broken without much effort.

  15. #275
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aventinus View Post
    I can agree with that.


    It can also be said that YG just might prefer his own style.
    I mean he abandoned HIS for Wooden Sword, and after he got hella good at that he went on to his Emo Palm.

    Now is Emo Palm really is better than Wooden Sword..perhaps it goes a long way to saying the DGQB really isn't all he's craked up to be and a lot of it is legend and exageration..which isn't unreasonable.

    On the other hand, one is a weapon technique and the other is a palm technique...

    At the very end however I'm just gonna run with most of DGQB techniques were just crush opponent with internal power. With this YG built up his internal power to Great level in those 16 years...and then that too wa sincorporated into his Emo Palm just like the rest of the martial arts he knew.

    God knows where the I must be a quivering baby in order to use it effectively came from.
    The novel definitively showed that Yang Guo was not able to master the Wooden Sword.

    I believe in the final fight in the 2nd edition, Jinlun Fawang attacked Yang Guo with one of his wheels. Which is probably why Yang Guo regretted not having his own weapon. Ultimately, he didn't need it and defeated JLFW anyways.
    Here is the relevant excerpt. This is what Chrono meant by having 'disarmed' Jinlun Fawang:

    Seeing that the wheels were about to make contact with his blade, he did not retract his sword. He wanted to test the internal strength of Fawang. The wheels and sword collided with a loud clang. The huge powers collided with each other and Yang Guo’s sword broke in two while the wheels flew out of Fawang’s hands. The wheels fell to the ground smashing three Mongolian archers. Yang Guo was shocked and thought, “For sixteen years I have not used the heavy iron sword; I see that I am too overconfident today.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post


    Incidentally, I think that DGQB's latter swords were more than simply crushing with internal power. I see no reason to not believe (and in fact have every reason to believe) that DGQB's Wooden Sword stage involved both great technique coupled with great internal power. YG's comprehension wasn't great enough to recreate such alleged techniques (self-admitted) so he tried to focus on internal energy. This didn't even come close to working since he wasn't even able to cut a tree all the way with the Wooden Sword.

    True..maybe I should refine to say YG interpretation of DGQB skills then.
    Though during the time by the sea all the divine condor seemed to focus on was the internal power.

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    The issue is that in Jin Yong's world, Jin Yong's rules must be applied. So unless you are saying that DGQB is the ONLY case where superior techniqe AND superior internal does not lead to a superior fighter [via deduction], then you're right, I'm only giving you an inductive proof. Except, you seem not to understand deductive reasoning at all. If all A is part of B, and all B is part of C (such as ALL fighters with better technique and internal are better overall), by deduction, A is part of C.
    Your argument is based on how powerful Yang Guo and LHC became with Dugu Qiubai's kung fu. Another is author intention.

    Neither proves that DGQB was "well above" Yang Guo.

    It's been shown that creators of martial arts can be inferior to the other people who learn them. Author intention of DGQB being powerful in his own era /= that he was more powerful than Yang Guo. So:

    a) Yang Guo and LHC became very powerful with Dugu Qiubai's martial art
    b) JY had author intention of Dugu Qiubai being powerful

    c) Dugu Qiubai is "well above" Yang Guo

    How does a & b prove c deductively?

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    a) Dugu Qiubai had better sword technique than Yang Guo (we can accept this as fact)
    b) Dugu Qiubai had better internal than Yang Guo (this is inconclusive)

    c) "...ALL fighters with better technique and internal are better overall"

    Unless b can be proven conclusively and deductively, we cannot make the final conclusion.

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Unless we do it this way:

    a) "...ALL fighters with better technique and internal are better overall"
    b) Dugu Qiubai had better technique and internal than Yang Guo

    c) Dugu Qiubai is "well above" Yang Guo.

    That's inductive reasoning.


    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    The fact that you are using illogical and unsupported fanfiction to try to 'justify' your argument indicates just how weak your position is.
    Where have I used fanfiction?
    Last edited by Dennis Chen; 07-08-08 at 07:39 PM.

  18. #278
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aventinus View Post
    I think during the time of their battles QQR had fallen from great level.

    He probably hadn't fought for quite a while, hadn't been cultivating energy and all that.
    Plus he wasn't quite in his right mind and had expended a lot of energy attacking Yideng already. And as been said.,..YG was armed.

    As for against GWM...YG probably wasn't as handicapped as you make it, and in the end it was XNL needles that ultimately won it for them anyway.
    The novel specifically stated that Qiu Qianren, at the time, was at least as good, if not superior to, Yideng. The novel stated that Yideng, using the combination of Yiyangzhi AND Xiantian and fighting at full force, might be able to squeak out a victory by a small margin.

    As to whether or not Yang Guo probably wasn't as handicapped, you be the judge.

    For fear that he would affect Xiao Longnu’s injured condition, Yang Guo stood there motionless. Fawang’s five wheels were only a deceptive attack, just to try out Yang Guo’s actions. The five wheels circled close to the two persons’ bodies, flying back and forth repeatedly. He saw Yang Guo would certainly not lift his sword to pursue, then understood and was secretly delighted: “You don’t dare to move your body, afraid that you would worsen Xiao Longnu’s injured condition. The situation is bad and there is no way out. My Zong Yue Yuan attack “Vertical Jump from Distance” can not be defeated.” The opponent has a missing arm and also had to protect the injured girl. According to Fawang’s rank, there couldn’t be a fight like this. However, he knew that a good opportunity of this kind was hard to come by. If Xiao Longnu recovered, the two persons combined couldn’t be defeated. Even if Xiao Longnu was injured to near death and Yang Guo was distracted, he himself might not necessarily be able to beat Yang Guo. He only had today to take advantage of the situation and kill them once and for all so there would be no more trouble in the future. As to whether or not it would be fair, let’s not pay much attention to it.

    [...]

    In just a short while, three out of five of Fawang’s wheels were destroyed. Still he was not discouraged, brandishing his gold and steel wheels around without fear. Yang Guo stretched out his sword while Fawang sidestepped to evade Yang Guo’s sword strikes. This time he didn’t throw out his wheels. Even though he wouldn’t be able to attack from afar, this was actually more powerful. When he saw Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu together, attacking on the left side and resisting on the right side, he jumped up high in the air and bore down with both wheels, sending out the Wu-Wu humming sound. Yang Guo’s black iron sword did appear quite dull but no matter how Fawang changed his moves, he couldn’t get within two or three steps of the couple. Forty or fifty moves passed, both Fawang’s wheels returned again and were about to pound into Xiao Longnu. Yang Guo thrust out the black iron sword, and the soft clattering sound was heard as the two weapons met. Both Yang Guo and Fawang sent out their internal forces to their weapons. Both refused to budge and were now motionless in a deadlock situation.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 07-08-08 at 07:36 PM.
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  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    The novel definitively showed that Yang Guo was not able to master the Wooden Sword.

    Not that I disagree with that assessment, but where does it say that?

    Last time we hear of the wooden sword YG had been playing by the sea for 6 years and it was said he felt what DGQB must have felt with the power he had.

    Nothing definitive about not being able to master it.

  20. #280
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    It could be said inductively that Dugu Qiubai was superior than Yang Guo. But that argument cannot be supported deductively. I'm asking for the latter, but I keep getting the former.
    by your idea of "deductively", there is no way to rank characters cross novels in the first place, so why bother?

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