Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

[Aventinus]

The novel specifically stated that Qiu Qianren, at the time, was at least as good, if not superior to, Yideng. The novel stated that Yideng, using the combination of Yiyangzhi AND Xiantian and fighting at full force, might be able to squeak out a victory by a small margin.

As to whether or not Yang Guo probably wasn't as handicapped, you be the judge.

Wow you keep chaning your post so much I can't keep up.
And true I am only reading the Wuxiapedia translation, but it only says Yiyangzhi, in a counterstrike would not win...not in an all out fight. But that's just my interpretation.

As for how I see the YG and GWM fight, XLN was on YG back he's at a disadvantage...but the direness of the situation is only from GWM point of view on JY's...so I see it has GWM's assessment being off, as it often is.

Regardless, heart of the disucssion was that YG was able to fend of great level fighters pre-16 and my contention is that both situations had extentuating circumstances....with YG being armed against QQR and in his energy struggle with GWM XLN being there it assist.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Ken, this passage is for you. It explains the origins of Yang Guo's development of the Sad Palms.

As we remember, after being separated from Xiao Longnu at the ‘Broken Heart Cliff’, with the eagle’s encouragement, he trained against the tide’s waves. Apart from gradually strengthening his internal energy, he practiced no new martial arts. He couldn’t forget his wife and as time passed, he was more and more depressed from loneliness. One day while walking by the sea, out of boredom he started to throw a few fists and kicks about. By now, his internal energy was at a very high level – anything he threw out contained great power. One of his light palms landed on a turtle’s back and smashed its shell. From then on, he developed a complete set of palm techniques that were completely different from conventional martial arts. The palms relied on internal energy and not on complicated fist techniques.

As we can see here, he invented the palm set out of boredom, and not as a replacement for the Heavy Iron sword.

[ChronoReverse]

Not that I disagree with that assessment, but where does it say that?

Last time we hear of the wooden sword YG had been playing by the sea for 6 years and it was said he felt what DGQB must have felt with the power he had.

Nothing definitive about not being able to master it.

I'd probably say when he tested out his Wooden Sword against a tree and broke it.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Wow you keep chaning your post so much I can't keep up.
And true I am only reading the Wuxiapedia translation, but it only says Yiyangzhi, in a counterstrike would not win...not in an all out fight. But that's just my interpretation.

As for how I see the YG and GWM fight, XLN was on YG back he's at a disadvantage...but the direness of the situation is only from GWM point of view on JY's...so I see it has GWM's assessment being off, as it often is.

Regardless, heart of the disucssion was that YG was able to fend of great level fighters pre-16 and my contention is that both situations had extentuating circumstances....with YG being armed against QQR and in his energy struggle with GWM XLN being there it assist.

How can you possibly contend that him not being able to MOVE in a fight, not be a huge disadvantage? Furthermore, the passage explicitly shows that the only reason he was forced into an internal energy competition (where the Heavy Iron sword technique would not be able to help him at all) was because JLGS attacked XLN. And in addition, Yang Guo HIMSELF states later that the JLGS of that time was "no match for him". So are you suggesting both Yang Guo AND JLGS are mistaken?

With regards to QQR, Jinyong specifically states that Yang Guo had the advantage of the Heavy Iron Sword, but QQR had the advantage of an arm, so they were even. Jinyong's words. How can you consider that an 'extenuating circumstance'?! "Yang Guo had the advantage of using a weapon but Ci’en had one more arm, and so they were about even."

[ChanceEncounter]

Your argument is based on how powerful Yang Guo and LHC became with Dugu Qiubai's kung fu. Another is author intention.

Neither proves that DGQB was "well above" Yang Guo.

It's been shown that creators of martial arts can be inferior to the other people who learn them. Author intention of DGQB being powerful in his own era /= that he was more powerful than Yang Guo. So:

a) Yang Guo and LHC became very powerful with Dugu Qiubai's martial art
b) JY had author intention of Dugu Qiubai being powerful

c) Dugu Qiubai is "well above" Yang Guo

How does a & b prove c deductively?

-----------------------------------------------------------

a) Dugu Qiubai had better sword technique than Yang Guo (we can accept this as fact)
b) Dugu Qiubai had better internal than Yang Guo (this is inconclusive)

c) "...ALL fighters with better technique and internal are better overall"

Unless b can be proven conclusively and deductively, we cannot make the final conclusion.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Unless we do it this way:

a) "...ALL fighters with better technique and internal are better overall"
b) Dugu Qiubai had better technique and internal than Yang Guo

c) Dugu Qiubai is "well above" Yang Guo.

That's inductive reasoning.

I can hardly see your post behind all the straw men.

That's not my line of reasoning at all.

Dugu Qiubai is much better than Yang Guo in swordplay. First of all this is corroborated by Yang Guo never reaching the wood/no sword stages.

Secondly, Jin Yong himself CONFIRMED that Yang Guo's swordplay was "not very advanced BECAUSE he has no manuscipt." In other words, he DID NOT receive all of Dugu's skills and only had his theories, and thus was incomplete. This "incomplete" skill made everything he learned before seem obsolete:

A.) Yang Guo's best skill is the HIS.
B.) Yang Guo's HIS is not as good as DGQB's swordsmanship.

C.) Ergo, DGQB's swordsmanship > YG.

Then, in terms of internal, we can argue this inductively (he had more time to train, he developed the training method that YG used, he arguably had more access to it and the snake gallbladers than YG did) or we can use a line DIRECTLY from the book: the difference between HIS and wooden sword was the level of INTERNAL ENERGY.

A.) The wood sword requires more internal energy than the HIS.
B.) Yang Guo did not master the wood sword level.
C.) DGQB mastered and exceeded the wood sword level.
D.) DGQB's internal energy > YG's (by at least one significant stage).

Therefore, we can use the third proof:

A.) All fighters with better technique and internal are stronger than those with weaker technique and internal.
B.) DGQB's internal > YG's.
C.) DGQB's technique > YG's.
D.) DGQB > YG.

QED.

The amount DGQB exceeds YG is irrelevant/red herring to this syllogism, and is entirely up to interpretation. It depends upon JUST how large the difference between the "no sword" stage is compared to the heavy iron sword. This is at least two significant stages, ESPECIALLY considering NO ONE ELSE was able to get to the no sword stage which is BETTER than having a sword. Sentential logic does not account for degree.

However, the only way you can argue that DGQB was not "well" above YG is to argue that the real version of YG's "not very advanced" swordsmanship + two significant stages is not "well" above YG's swordsmanship. If you want to make this argument, you are clearly going against JY's intentions.

As I said, you can believe this if you want, but you do not have the leverage to state that others are wrong for believing otherwise. I proved definitively that DGQB is stronger than YG. We DO NOT KNOW exactly by how much, but it is at least TWO significant phases/paradigm shifts ahead. These phases are evidently very large, because NO ONE ELSE in any of JY's canon ever made this jump.

Where have I used fanfiction?

DGQB being a fraud is fanfiction until you can prove it.

Furthermore, your argument that creators do not necessarily master their arts better than people who pick it up is irrelevant in this case. Because in DGQB's case, it was explicitly stated that DGQB mastered his own techniques. Furthermore, with the 9Yang, QKDNY examples, the followers had explicit manuscripts. DGQB had NO manuscript (as confirmed by JY), and his followers could only piece together his art from his sayings, and did not master it to the same level.

by your idea of "deductively", there is no way to rank characters cross novels in the first place, so why bother?

Exactly. There is no deductive proof that Dongfang Bubai is level 80 while GJ is level 77. This isn't an RPG where we can hack into the game and see which character has how many HP, Internal, vitality, and strength. We are doing the entire list inductively. By claiming that we need to conform to your "deductive reasoning" (an impossibility with anything less than predicate logic) would make this entire list obsolete.


As I said, I gave you four options to prove that DGQB is overranked. Not only did you NOT give any proofs, you continue to tout the SAME "logic" that I debunked earlier.

[Aventinus]

I'd probably say when he tested out his Wooden Sword against a tree and broke it.

But then he trained for 6 years after that and was able to shall we say, tame the sea.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Not really. It's generally accepted that martial artists, even elite ones, are stronger with weapons than without; this was showed to be true for Greats level martial artists as well. Ouyang Feng, for example, was said to be more dangerous with his special serpent staff than without it. Yang Guo's bare-handed martial arts skills were relatively lacking before he developed his Sad Palms; this compensated for it somewhat. ChronoReverse explained it more in detail than I did.

This also bring me to something I think may have been misinterpreted. JY stated that between fighters of very high caliber, it does not require weapons to determine who was better.

It seems usually taken as to mean that a Great wouldn't be much stronger with a weapon compared to without.

I'd argue that it means that between Greats, if they're equal as fighters, then their bare-handed and weapon technique would naturally be near each others'

not necessarily. i remember it was stated in LOCH that weapon did not matter for elite martial artists since Guo JIng was allowed to use a weapon against Hong 7 Gong. while OYF was said to be more "dangerous" with his serpent staff, when he decided to use his "killer moves" he reverted back to his Serpent fists.

of course, i think that depends on the specific art itself. ie. for the likes of people Guo Jing & 1 Deng, would they really be more powerful with a sword or some other weapon than using 18 Dragon Palms or 1 Yang Finger? I highly doubt so. But on the other hand, if we took away the weapon from people such as LIttle Dragon Girl or DongFang Bubai, their threat and ability will be much diminished.

[ChanceEncounter]

But then he trained for 6 years after that and was able to shall we say, tame the sea.

1.) It was never mentioned in any frame of reference that he got to the wooden sword level.

2.) The wooden sword level is a higher level than the HIS, and would make the HIS obsolete. If he had gotten to the wooden sword level, he would not have regretted not bringing the HIS against JLGS.

Therefore, it is logical to conclude that he never got to the wooden sword level.

[Ren Wo Xing]

But then he trained for 6 years after that and was able to shall we say, tame the sea.

His performance against JLGS was evidence that he still hadn't mastered the wooden sword, much less no sword. He couldn't even use an ordinary metal sword like the way he used the Heavy Iron sword, much less a sword made of wood!

not necessarily. i remember it was stated in LOCH that weapon did not matter for elite martial artists since Guo JIng was allowed to use a weapon against Hong 7 Gong. while OYF was said to be more "dangerous" with his serpent staff, when he decided to use his "killer moves" he reverted back to his Serpent fists.

OYF reverted to his "Spirit Serpent Fists" primarily because it was a brand new invention he had made, which he thought he could use to totally catch Hong Qigong off-guard. Unfortunately, his idiot son/student already fully showed it off! LOL.

[Aventinus]

How can you possibly contend that him not being able to MOVE in a fight, not be a huge disadvantage? Furthermore, the passage explicitly shows that the only reason he was forced into an internal energy competition (where the Heavy Iron sword technique would not be able to help him at all) was because JLGS attacked XLN. And in addition, Yang Guo HIMSELF states later that the JLGS of that time was "no match for him". So are you suggesting both Yang Guo AND JLGS are mistaken?

With regards to QQR, Jinyong specifically states that Yang Guo had the advantage of the Heavy Iron Sword, but QQR had the advantage of an arm, so they were even. Jinyong's words. How can you consider that an 'extenuating circumstance'?! "Yang Guo had the advantage of using a weapon but Ci’en had one more arm, and so they were about even."

He wasn't able to move, but the passage also says that GWM basically only threw wheels around YG and taunted him and put on a show for quite a while. And when the wheels finally did attack YG, he blocked and broke them with the HIS...hardly a motionless action.

And during the internal energy match YG was very alarmed at GWM strength and lamented the he couldn't use the HIS..which shows that he was depending the HIS for his defense.

As for the quote in the fight with QQR you are correct JY does say that. But it doesn't say that the HIS exactly made up for YG missing arm......it was said QQR with two arms and YG withone arm and the HIS were about even...(which we were already aware of from the beggining.) It's how much the HIS contributes to YG in evening it out that we don't know and isnt said.

[Aventinus]

1.) It was never mentioned in any frame of reference that he got to the wooden sword level.

2.) The wooden sword level is a higher level than the HIS, and would make the HIS obsolete. If he had gotten to the wooden sword level, he would not have regretted not bringing the HIS against JLGS.

Therefore, it is logical to conclude that he never got to the wooden sword level.

Again I don't disagree with that assessment. In fact I don't think YG got to the level the DGQB did with the sword.
I was just disagreeing with the assertion that this was definitively shown in the novel.

And to play devil's advocate....maybe YG dind't ahve a wooden sword at the time..

Further...HIS is a precious sword...but the wooden sword was nothing special...one wonders if he applied wooden sword energies to the HIS.....maybe that's what he was thinking..

I don't know anymore.

[Ren Wo Xing]

He wasn't able to move, but the passage also says that GWM basically only threw wheels around YG and taunted him and put on a show for quite a while. And when the wheels finally did attack YG, he blocked and broke them with the HIS...hardly a motionless action.

What? Of course he was motionless, as in he wasn't able to dodge, walk, position...he was just standing there, and waving his sword. Are you trying to argue that he was supposed to not even move his arm or his sword, in order to be considered at a huge disadvantage?! -I- can kill Yang Guo if he isn't allowed to move any part of his body at all! And JLGS wasn't "putting on a show"; he was testing to see if Yang Guo would counterattack at all. When he found out that he wouldn't, he moved in for the attempted kill, failing miserably until he became even more despicable and started attacking the semi-unconscious XLN instead.

And during the internal energy match YG was very alarmed at GWM strength and lamented the he couldn't use the HIS..which shows that he was depending the HIS for his defense.

Of course he was depending on the HIS. That was what put him at/above Great level, which is what this entire conversation was about.

As for the quote in the fight with QQR you are correct JY does say that. But it doesn't say that the HIS exactly made up for YG missing arm......it was said QQR with two arms and YG withone arm and the HIS were about even...(which we were already aware of from the beggining.) It's how much the HIS contributes to YG in evening it out that we don't know and isnt said.

Come on. Jinyong says that they are 'roughly even', and your reaction is, "Well, we don't now 'how' even it is, since Jinyong didn't explicitly describe them as 100% even?" Are you serious? And besides, Qiu Qianren never used weapons anyhow; he was famous for his Iron Palms!

[Ren Wo Xing]

Okay, just for you, I went and found the passage with Qiu Qianren and retranslated it:

"这时两人一剑双掌越斗越激烈，杨过在兵刃上占了便宜，慈恩却多了一条手臂，可说扯了个直"

"At this moment, the fight between the sword [of Yang Guo] and the twin fists [of Qiu Qianren] was becoming more and more fierce. Yang Guo had an advantage due to his weapon, but Ci'en had an additional arm. It can be said that they pulled even."

There is no word "roughly" in the original Chinese.

[ChronoReverse]

Nonetheless YG beating QQR was a surprise because of the HIS. QQR was confident enough to deal with the sword using his palms but because of the tremendous weight of the sword, this turned out to be his fatal mistake.

Hmm, YG didn't seem to win as cleanly as I'd thought. Poor QQR got snow in his eyes.



What's even more interesting is the effect YD had on YG's HIS despite his heavy injuries. YG was pressing with great force on QQR but YD's finger brushed it aside almost casually (with YG feeling heat).

[Ren Wo Xing]

That just only for the first stroke. He dodged that stroke, then it became an even, fair fight which Yang Guo was winning. It was not a 'sucker punch', so to speak.

[the.raven]

why dont we just ask JinYong if DGQB is as powerful as sweeper monk....

[PJ]

why dont we just ask JinYong if DGQB is as powerful as sweeper monk....

Somebody could have, but he asked about Xiao Feng -vs- Sweeper Monk instead... it was one of the "oh God... *cover your face*" moments of wuxia.

[the.raven]

Somebody could have, but he asked about Xiao Feng -vs- Sweeper Monk instead... it was one of the "oh God... *cover your face*" moments of wuxia.

huh? I dont get it.

[jadebunny9]

huh? I dont get it.

Some idiot basically asked Jin Yong a really obvious question when he could have asked something else that could possibly have voided half the discussion in this thread.

[the.raven]

Some idiot basically asked Jin Yong a really obvious question when he could have asked something else that could possibly have voided half the discussion in this thread.

oh, you mean like during a Jin Yong press conference sort of thing?