Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

[Dirt]

He always was, always will be.

No, he wasn't. Years ago, there was fanfic around talking about Huang Shang and DGQB meeting and fighting. Many people discussed and debated the idea and the winner wasn't a foregone conclusion. In Laviathan's ranking, he put Huang Shang and DGQB on the same level.

The mythologizing continues.

[Ken Cheng]

He always was, always will be.

Dallasjames was right about this: he left them out. They can't be properly ranked because nothing is properly known about their actual prowess vis a vis the *known* fighters.

[PJ]

Duan Yu ( After mastering 6MSJ )

Which never happened in the novel, and I don't believe anything suggests he ever did later. Should we rank a fighter based on uneducated imagination?

[Ken Cheng]

Which never happened in the novel. Should we rank a fighter based on imagination?

I don't know about all out *mastery*, suffice it to say that by the end of DGSD, Deun Yu's 6 Mak Divine Swords were already good enough that he had little to fear from even Kiu Fung-class fighters. Whether or not this constitutes actual "mastery" is debatable, but he was certainly an elite in wulin even with the skills that he had.

[PJ]

I don't know about all out *mastery*, suffice it to say that by the end of DGSD, Deun Yu's 6 Mak Divine Swords were already good enough that he had little to fear from even Kiu Fung-class fighters.

What? When the heck did that happen?

If you're referring to the palm strike that Xiao Feng threw at Xuzhu/Duan Yu, which they blocked, I've always been of the opinion that meant nothing. Xiao Feng wasn't trying to harm them, just keep them busy for one second while he grabbed the king.

Besides, we have a quote from Jin Yong in an interview saying that Duan Yu cannot use 6MSJ proficiently; sometimes it works while other times it doesn't.

[Dirt]

In which case, Duan Yu would likely rank below the 5 Greats.

[Ken Cheng]

What? When the heck did that happen?

If you're referring to the palm strike that Xiao Feng threw at Xuzhu/Duan Yu, which they blocked, I've always been of the opinion that meant nothing. Xiao Feng wasn't trying to harm them, just keep them busy for one second while he grabbed the king.

Besides, we have a quote from Jin Yong in an interview saying that Duan Yu cannot use 6MSJ proficiently; sometimes it works while other times it doesn't.

Check it out: I got reamed here.

I might tolerate getting reamed one way, but there's no way I'm going to get reamed in BOTH directions.

[Dirt]

I give it another year, maybe two before DGQB is ranked higher than Sweeper Monk.

[Ken Cheng]

I give it another year, maybe two before DGQB is ranked higher than Sweeper Monk.

It's already happened, but remains a minority view (fortunately).

[PJ]

Check it out: I got reamed here.

I might tolerate getting reamed one way, but there's no way I'm going to get reamed in BOTH directions.

I don't know what's this "reamed" business, but I do remember that discussion. I was one of the people who advocated that Duan Yu was still a newbie at martial arts at the end of the novel. He just happens to have massive internal energy and a few high-level techniques, but he cannot use them efficiently. And I do think he would have major difficulty with a Great-level fighter outside of the Embarrassment Club (which comprises Qiu Qianren, GWM and Zhang Wuji).

On the other hand, if one day Duan Yu mastered all of his awesome martial arts (6MSJ, Treading Wave Microsteps, Beiming Shengong), he should be well ahead of Xiao Feng and the Greats. But that did not happen in the novel.

[Ken Cheng]

I don't know what's this "reamed" business, but I do remember that discussion.

So do I, but I remember it differently. I remember half a dozen people at least ridiculing me as a "Kiu Fung fanboy" in that thread (when I'm not) and I made a note to myself to exact deadly vengeance upon them someday.

But it's gone...all gone. The thread isn't what I remember it to be at all. What's happened?!

I REMEMBER it...why is it all different now?!

[tape]

No, he wasn't. Years ago, there was fanfic around talking about Huang Shang and DGQB meeting and fighting. Many people discussed and debated the idea and the winner wasn't a foregone conclusion. In Laviathan's ranking, he put Huang Shang and DGQB on the same level.

The mythologizing continues.

Yeah but the theorizing was about when Dugu fought Huang Shang he was at the flexible violet sword level, since the righteous man he wounded was supposed to have been Huang Shang. If he could wound him at that level already, at his peak after HIS and No sword he should be way better !

[PJ]

No, he wasn't. Years ago, there was fanfic around talking about Huang Shang and DGQB meeting and fighting. Many people discussed and debated the idea and the winner wasn't a foregone conclusion. In Laviathan's ranking, he put Huang Shang and DGQB on the same level.

The mythologizing continues.

That theory was put forth more than 10 years ago. Since then, more discussions have occurred and opinions have shifted....

No, Laviathan ranked Dugu Qiubai one level above Huang Shang.

[Dirt]

That theory was put forth more than 10 years ago. Since then, more discussions have occurred and opinions have shifted....

No, Laviathan ranked Dugu Qiubai one level above Huang Shang.

At the outset, he had them ranked together.

The mythologizing continues.

Yeah but the theorizing was about when Dugu fought Huang Shang he was at the flexible violet sword level, since the righteous man he wounded was supposed to have been Huang Shang. If he could wound him at that level already, at his peak after HIS and No sword he should be way better !

So you believe that Dugu using a stick or a rock is more powerful than Dugu using a sword?

If we assume that to be true, how is that different than say HYS? HYS obviously used a sword when he was younger since he created a sword martial art. However, by the end of his life, he used pebbles and even finger chi to fight. My question is:

How is DGQB's using sticks or rocks or even sword without a sword different from HYS and Tanzhi Shentong as an example?

[PJ]

I've only ever seen one version of Laviathan's Ultimate Ranking, and it looks like this. If there are other versions, I've not seen them circulated.

1. The Nameless Old Sweeper Monk

2. Wuyazi, Child Mistress of Heavenly Mountain Tianshan Tonglao, Li Qiushui

3. Xuzhu, Shi Potian
(Demonic Swordsman Dugu Qiubai)

4. Guo Jing, Yang Guo, Zhang Sanfeng, Zhang Wuji
(Central Divinity Wang Chongyang, Huang Shang*A )

.....

[PJ]

Anyway, there has always been a small group of people who thought Dugu Qiubai >= Sweeper Monk. Likewise, there's always been a small group of people who had a rather low opinion of Dugu Qiubai.

Don't see what the big fuss is.

[Dirt]

I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) the original ranking was on a now defunct wuxia board.

[tape]

At the outset, he had them ranked together.

The mythologizing continues.



So you believe that Dugu using a stick or a rock is more powerful than Dugu using a sword?

If we assume that to be true, how is that different than say HYS? HYS obviously used a sword when he was younger since he created a sword martial art. However, by the end of his life, he used pebbles and even finger chi to fight. My question is:

How is DGQB's using sticks or rocks or even sword without a sword different from HYS and Tanzhi Shentong as an example?

There were some good posts in the older threads that summarized it. Using a palm is not the same as using a sword without a sword even though the palm is not using a sword.

Someone who normally uses a sword can obviously also kill without a sword if the opponent is weaker than them. They are not using sword without a sword -- they are just not using a sword. Likewise with people using something in place of a sword against weaker opponents -- they are still not using sword without a sword. It's not the physical absence of the sword that is important; it's about transcending the limitations of the sword on a spiritual level. I can't explain it since it's obviously fictional and may not even follow real world logic but if you go by author intent and a typical philosophical view, that is what JY is trying to explain.

It's like the analogy of formless vs form. Someone who doesn't know how to fight is formless if he randomly swings, but someone who is actually formless as described by JY is generally someone who has mastered perfect form, then slowly forgets the form and moves into formless. One formless is not equal to another formless, just like someone killing without a sword is not the same as sword with no sword a la Dugu.

The same thing is along the lines of your question about Huang Yaoshi. He can randomly swing his arms infused with inner strength and it would be formless because he's not doing anything. If the opponent is much weaker they will be defeated regardless. But Huang is not formless in the sense that Dugu is described to be. Huang's peak performance is still using forms and techniques as are all the other Greats while Dugu's peak is supposed to be formless.

[tape]

I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) the original ranking was on a now defunct wuxia board.

The original ranking was on those Yushi forums that a lot of us have migrated from. I'm quite sure the original is what PJ posted, as there was no lengthy discussion on Dugu that I remember. The main discussions were about the Greats and random low levellers such as Qiu Chuji and Xuan Ming elders etc.

Even if there was change, I don't see why you persist on using the word mythologizing and can't recognize it as intellectually debating.

[PJ]

Now I do remember seeing the original "Ultimate Ranking" made by Laviathan, in the old Yushi forum, and it's the same one (and only one) that's been circulating. I'm quite sure that was the first time Laviathan posted any such ranking, since it caused an earth-shattering stir to the community who, for the most part, had been under a vastly different opinion.

The "Ultimate Ranking" was also posted here on SPCNET. Many valuable discussions occurred (like "Martial Arts Comparison Between DGSD and LOCH/ROCH era" thread), and it's a shame that the thread was lost in the forum.