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Thread: Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

  1. #61
    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    I disagree with quite a lot of it if the 2nd post in this thread is the latest change.

    TSTL+LQS should be much higher. DGQB should stay out of the list to give it credibility. QZ should be higher among other things.
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  2. #62
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz
    I disagree with quite a lot of it if the 2nd post in this thread is the latest change.

    TSTL+LQS should be much higher. DGQB should stay out of the list to give it credibility. QZ should be higher among other things.
    Ditto! I'll stick with my bastardised Lav Ultimate Listing for now.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    Ditto! I'll stick with my bastardised Lav Ultimate Listing for now.
    I agree! I'm staying with CC's REFINED Laviathian's Ultimate Ranking .

    However, I'm still a bit confused about Ode of Gallantary. Zhang San and Li Si of Ode of Gallantary were able to seal accupoints from about 5 feet. According to PJ, Lav's feeling was that only Duan Zhenming level fighters or higher can do that. Logically speaking, wouldn't Li Si and Zhang San be around Duan Zhengming? and the Lord Mu and Long would be higher in the ROCH Greats level with a -.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  4. #64
    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    I agree! I'm staying with CC's REFINED Laviathian's Ultimate Ranking .
    Actually, I do remember Laviathan posting a version 2 of his ranking (just a few changes/additions here and there, nothing major). Must have gotten lost in the big crash.

    So CC, you're not going crazy for being one of the few who remember.

  5. #65
    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    I agree! I'm staying with CC's REFINED Laviathian's Ultimate Ranking .

    However, I'm still a bit confused about Ode of Gallantary. Zhang San and Li Si of Ode of Gallantary were able to seal accupoints from about 5 feet. According to PJ, Lav's feeling was that only Duan Zhenming level fighters or higher can do that. Logically speaking, wouldn't Li Si and Zhang San be around Duan Zhengming? and the Lord Mu and Long would be higher in the ROCH Greats level with a -.
    Zhang San and Li Si does appear very powerful, but I don't feel that they are above DZM (the keyword here is feel). Even if they are, we are not sure how much their masters are above them. Nonetheless SPT pawns, even if he can only surf rather than glide over the ocean!!
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  6. #66
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerWong
    Actually, I do remember Laviathan posting a version 2 of his ranking (just a few changes/additions here and there, nothing major). Must have gotten lost in the big crash.

    So CC, you're not going crazy for being one of the few who remember.

    Yes. You are among the few to remember the forums before the Crisis On Infinite Message Boards.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    So which version should we subscribe to? The logical one, or the author-intended one?

    By the way I'm pretty sure Jin Yong NEVER meant 4 Greats to be > Jinlun Guoshi at the end of ROCH. That's why Jin Yong specifically made sure that Jinlun was about ready to get the upper hand against Yideng. Your bias against him is pathetic.
    The author-intended one. In every instance WCY is mentioned, he is put in a greater light than the 4 greats. There is no indication at all that JY meant for the greats at the end of ROCH to have surpassed WCY but some of you insist on taking every detail at the most literal level to determine power levels. As I've said before, this is fiction and you can't ignore context and author intention. JY described the Sword God in awesome terms too, but what the heck did he do? The Sword God obviously wasn't meant to be a Sword "God". Let me use another example aside from Wuxia. In comics, if you just look at specific feats of Superman, you can conclude that Superman is faster than the Flash but the official company line is still that Flash is the fastest superhero alive.

    How is my bias against BWM pathetic? Let's look at the facts.

    BWM beats QQR after a whole day. YG beat QQR in an hour 16 years ago.
    JY makes it very clear that YG was equal to HYS, equal or slightly worse than ZBT but YG then beats BWM pretty easily with BWM himself worrying that he would lose in 300 stances.
    GJ was about equal or slightly better than OYF at the beginning of ROCH. GJ then got the upper hand in the first exchange against BWM, humiliated BWM in an archery competition, fought evenly BWM+Mongolian high level fighters+YG'shindrance
    You keep mentioning BWM's brief display of power against Yiden but who was embarassed at the end of the scene? BWM.

    There is little within the context of the story which suggests that BWM is capable of beating any great, except for the insistence on focusing on descriptions of how awesome BWM's martial arts is. Such descriptions are meaningless if you don't consider the context of the literaure. Once again, I want to mention your Sword God is described by JY as having reached the pinnacle of swordplay but would anyone really believe that Zhou Bufan is a Sword God?

    You keep getting upset at my supposed bias aggainst BWM but what about the people that strongly support BWM? I've noticed that people that keep hyping up BWM's powers are YG fans. Obviously, YG's defeat of BWM would be a much greater feat if BWM is > a great. I'm not saying you're biased, but BWM supporters like Yeung Gor/Leviathan are clearly much bigger fans of YG than GJ/4 Greats and it's unfair to attack me for being biased and ignore their possible motivations for ranking BWM so high. My dislike of BWM is simply that he isn't awesome enough as a villain. BWM's humiliations throughout the story already make it a foregone conclusion that he would be destroyed at the end of ROCH. I would have no problem ranking BWM very high if he had been kicking butt left and right but there's little display of it. JMZ is in my opinon, a much better done BWM although I wish he hadn't been defeated quite so easily by XZ and DY at the end.
    Last edited by Wu Wudi; 08-25-06 at 11:06 PM.

  8. #68
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    GWM haven't really fought anyone after the 16 years period, except a brief exchange with the great, so we assumed GWM monk is the same as the greats.

    I think it's implied that YG is slightly above the great when he had this exchange with HYS to force him to show the "Nun skill". Not sure about Guo Jing because he didn't really fight anyone in the later 16 years.

  9. #69
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WuxiaMaster
    I think it's implied that YG is slightly above the great when he had this exchange with HYS to force him to show the "Nun skill".
    How so? That sparring match came out as a dead heat once both fighters brought forth their best skills (Divine Finger Snap and Sad Palms).

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by WuxiaMaster
    GWM haven't really fought anyone after the 16 years period, except a brief exchange with the great, so we assumed GWM monk is the same as the greats.

    I think it's implied that YG is slightly above the great when he had this exchange with HYS to force him to show the "Nun skill". Not sure about Guo Jing because he didn't really fight anyone in the later 16 years.
    It was said that HYS's palms were inferior to YG but HYS's flicking skills are equal to YG. However, I'm much more likely agree with you that YG/GJ are meant to be greater than the old greats than the theory that BWM is greater than the other greats. In my opinion, the fact that BWM beat QQR in one day doesn't help but hurt the case that he is greater than any of the 4 greats. In GJ/YG's cases, although they never were shown to dominate the other greats, I'm inclined to believe that JY meant for them to surpass the old guys because GJ/YG had better arts and reached great power at much higher rates.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    How so? That sparring match came out as a dead heat once both fighters brought forth their best skills (Divine Finger Snap and Sad Palms).
    I don't get that either. How come so many interpert as YG>HYS in that exchange and then YG>ZBT when it was stated clearly that the first match was even while it's arguable that ZBT was slightly better in the second match?

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi
    I don't get that either. How come so many interpert as YG>HYS in that exchange and then YG>ZBT when it was stated clearly that the first match was even while it's arguable that ZBT was slightly better in the second match?
    HYS/YG exchange: It's actually VERY argueable that YG is > HYS. Ok, when HYS felt overhwhelmed, he resorted to Divine Flick right? Now, Divine Flick would NEUTRALIZE the energy of YG's palm. Do you know what that means? It means that in addition to the fact that the palm and finger energy are =, YG CAN'T RETURN A HIGHER ENERGY UNLESS YG RESTARTS the whole thing again. In other words, YG's full potential in power has YET TO BE REVEALED. I know YG said to himself that he would try his best, but his power was getting stronger and stronger..... how are you getting better energy when you are already trying your best? So I think HYS hasn't seen the full power of YG's palm energy.

    ZBT/YG match: ZBT was winning in the FIRST half when YG WASN'T using Melancholic Sad Palm. I once wrote an analysis to show that YG was using 2 different types of palm technique during that match-http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=16555

    In the 1st half, YG was losing when he was not using Sad Palm. However, YG immediately turned the tide when YG used Sad Palm. PLUS most importantly of all is that YG can WEAR ZBT DOWN which YG successfully did.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  13. #73
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    In the 1st half, YG was losing when he was not using Sad Palm. However, YG immediately turned the tide when YG used Sad Palm. PLUS most importantly of all is that YG can WEAR ZBT DOWN which YG successfully did.
    Isn't it kind of hard to wear down a 9 Yum Jen Ging user? The 9 Yum Jen Ging was among the best energy suppliers/conservers to be had (although Chow Bak Tung might not have been privy to some of the secrets that Gwok Jing had).

  14. #74
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    Nice try Ken, but the book specifically mentioned that ZBT was worn down due to OLD AGE.

    This is fox-s's translation-
    Suddenly Zhou leaped to block Yang Guo’s path and threw out a fist. “Good Brother, please show me just one more stance,” he begged. Yang Guo defended using Quan Zhen martial arts. Zhou changed his fist techniques but Yang Guo kept to using Quan Zhen palm techniques and Nine Yin martial arts to defend.

    The Nine Yin Manual contained all kind of martial arts techniques; therefore, it was more than enough for Yang Guo to defend himself. If Yang Guo wanted to defeat Zhou Bo Tong, it would be no easy task but now that he’s just concentrating on defending, Zhou was not able to do anything to him. No matter what kind of dummies or tricks that Zhou tried, Yang Guo did not fall for any of them. He did not use any new stances of his Melancholic Palms but he repeated the four stances of his Melancholic Palms that he had previously used with different variations to agitate Zhou Bo Tong even more.

    The two fought for almost an hour. Zhou Bo Tong was an old man, his vigor had been depleted and his internal energy was no longer the same as it was at the start of the fight. He knew now it would be difficult to get Yang Guo to use a new palm from his ‘An Ren Xiao Hun Zhang’ so he leapt back and begged Yang Guo, “All right! All right! I will kowtow eight times and take you as my master. Master Yang, disciple Zhou Bo Tong kowtows to you!” And he really kowtowed to Yang Guo!
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  15. #75
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi
    How is my bias against BWM pathetic? Let's look at the facts.
    Because your bias has the reached the peak of perfection. You refuse to acknowledge any of his accomplishments.

    BWM beats QQR after a whole day. YG beat QQR in an hour 16 years ago.
    Let me ask you this. Did we know anything about the fight between Jinlun Guoshi and Qiu Qianren, other than it taking a whole day? The answer is no. That fight happened in the background and anything could have happened. On the other hand, Jinlun Guoshi's fight with Yideng, we have the exact details straight out of Jin Yong's mouth, and in all likelihood Yideng was going to lose. Jinlun's overbearing internal energy was great. The palm energy released by him greatly exceeded that of Yideng. So what do you think is Jin Yong trying to say here? Please answer this question.

    You keep mentioning BWM's brief display of power against Yiden but who was embarassed at the end of the scene? BWM.
    What embarrassment? Golden Wheel Monk = Zhou Botong, both >= Yideng.

    There is little within the context of the story which suggests that BWM is capable of beating any great, except for the insistence on focusing on descriptions of how awesome BWM's martial arts is. Such descriptions are meaningless if you don't consider the context of the literaure.
    Very True. So let's consider it a little more carefully.

    Huang Yaoshi exchanged about 10 strokes with Yang Guo. Zhou Botong exchanged about 100 strokes with Yang Guo (I think) WITHOUT HIM USING SAD PALMS. While Jinlun exchanged hundreds of strokes with Yang Guo utilizing a subpar version of Sad Palms. Which of these fights do you think most accurately reflect Yang Guo's skills?

    You say that Yang Guo = Huang Yaoshi. And yet they only exchanged very few stances. In DGSD even Duan Zhengchun could last 20 stances against Duan Yanqing without showing any sign of losing. I would think that Jinlun Guoshi's long-lasting fight with Yang Guo reflects Yang Guo's martial arts ability the best.

    You keep getting upset at my supposed bias aggainst BWM but what about the people that strongly support BWM?
    Such as? I don't recall seeing any hype up of the Jinlun Guoshi.

    I'm not saying you're biased, but BWM supporters like Yeung Gor/Leviathan are clearly much bigger fans of YG than GJ/4 Greats
    First of all, let's not lump Laviathan and Yeung Gor into one group.

    Secondly, Laviathan is NOT a Yang Guo supporter. He tried to be fair when bias are presented against Yang Guo. I do know that Laviathan likes Xiao Feng better than Guo Jing, and yet he maintains that Guo Jing >= Xiao Feng in martial arts. I also know that Lav's favorite main character in Linghu Chong, and he has no problem admitting that Linghu Chong < Xiao/Guo/Yang/Zhang/Shi. Laviathan is as fair and balanced as wuxia readers go.

    The only thing I can say is that let's try to analyze the characters based on the facts presented in the novel (that includes reasonable descriptions as well as actual performances) without any outside bias.

    My dislike of BWM is simply that he isn't awesome enough as a villain. BWM's humiliations throughout the story already make it a foregone conclusion that he would be destroyed at the end of ROCH. I would have no problem ranking BWM very high if he had been kicking butt left and right but there's little display of it.
    So he sucks as a villain in ROCH, the story of many Greats. OK. Murong Fu sucks as a villain too. So now are we going to discredit everything that Murong Fu has demonstrated? Maybe he can be defeated by Ah Bi, who knows?!

    Jinlun kinda sucks as a fighter but his martial arts are VERY, VERY, VERY good. Although his fighting ability isn't at the Great level but his level of martial arts most certainly is. Throughout the whole story Jin Yong was trying to say that although Jinlun had excellent internal energy, he had subpar techniques to compare with the best martial arts of the central plains. But you are taking it seriously out of context when you say that Jinlun < the 2 older Greats at the end of ROCH, when it is absolutely clear that Jinlun >= Yideng.

    JMZ is in my opinon, a much better done BWM although I wish he hadn't been defeated quite so easily by XZ and DY at the end.
    He was never really "defeated" by Xuzhu or Duan Yu.
    Last edited by PJ; 08-26-06 at 12:50 AM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  16. #76
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    . I would think that Jinlun Guoshi's long-lasting fight with Yang Guo reflects Yang Guo's martial arts ability the best.
    How long was that fight, really? It had to have wrapped up before the towering inferno where Gwok Seung was tied up came crashing down. That couldn't be more than a few minutes as the tower had already been burning for a while when Yeung Gor arrived there.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Because your bias has the reached the peak of perfection. You refuse to acknowledge any of his accomplishments.


    Secondly, Laviathan is NOT a Yang Guo supporter. He tried to be fair when bias are presented against Yang Guo. I do know that Laviathan likes Xiao Feng better than Guo Jing, and yet he maintains that Guo Jing >= Xiao Feng in martial arts. I also know that Lav's favorite main character in Linghu Chong, and he has no problem admitting that Linghu Chong < Xiao/Guo/Yang/Zhang/Shi. Laviathan is as fair and balanced as wuxia readers go.


    He was never really "defeated" by Xuzhu or Duan Yu.

    I guess we just have to agree to disagree. I really don't see many accomplishments from BWM except for that win against QQR and that win, in my opinon, hurts him rather than help him. I've seen nothing from BWM's record that shows that he would have beaten a great. BWM is the equivalent of a student who everyone says is bright yet somehow fails to reach the expectations of being at the top of the class. You don't agree that BWM was embarassed when he first met Yideng/ZBT/HYS but none of the greats has ever been placed in such a humliating postion by JY. It's pretty disgraceful that BWM has to resort to suicide and was still prevented from being able to sucesfully commit suicide. I don't get why you think that BWM=ZBT from 1 simple exchange, more than a few could handle ZBT from 1 exchange. BWM couldn't even beat young YG/XLN or GJ with help from others, while ZBT has been recognized as a superior martial artists by the other greats. Nothing suggests to me that BWM is equal to ZBT. It's really pointless to argue this further. I just don't believe that a guy who is meant to be equivalent to ZBT would have such a terrible win-loss record and so many humiliations.

    Didn't Leviathan started a thread about how GJ is a lousy character? That's why I consider him a staunch YG fan because from what I know, anti-GJ usually equals pro YG and vice versa.

    JMZ wasn't defeated by XZ but it was clear that he was already inferior to XZ and basically had no chance of beating XZ even after JMZ cheated. I also consider DY to have a victory over JMZ because JMZ completely lost his power to DY, even though it was unintentional. Still, JMZ dominated many other high level fighters and was shown to be a winner in many of his fighters unlike BWM, which is why I consider him a BWM done much better.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    How long was that fight, really? It had to have wrapped up before the towering inferno where Gwok Seung was tied up came crashing down. That couldn't be more than a few minutes as the tower had already been burning for a while when Yeung Gor arrived there.
    The match was 200 stances. After 200 stances, JLFW got "scared" by the wierdness of YG's palm and based on the situation before of being "scared", JLFW knew that he would be defeated in about 100 stances. And that is why JLFW referred to throwing wheels at GX to get YG to protect her.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  19. #79
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi
    I really don't see many accomplishments from BWM except for that win against QQR and that win, in my opinon, hurts him rather than help him.
    Oh really. It was explicitly stated that Yideng at best could hope to win against Qiu Qianren by half a stance. Yang Guo defeated Qiu Qianren after an hour as you said. So Yang Guo > Yideng already, pre-16 years? Then how come he would possibly only = Huang Yaoshi 16 years later?

    Also by stating that Yideng could at best win by half a stance and yet Jinlun severely injured Qiu Qianren, COMBINED with the combat proof later that Yideng was having more difficulty against Jinlun, is proof that Jinlun >= Yideng in martial arts.

    I've seen nothing from BWM's record that shows that he would have beaten a great.
    Thank you very much for ignoring the question that I underlined for you to answer.

    You don't agree that BWM was embarassed when he first met Yideng/ZBT/HYS but none of the greats has ever been placed in such a humliating postion by JY.
    Well, he IS the villain of the story. So he is going to get some ugly treatments from the author. It's a given and it happens in every novel. IMO the fight with Xuzhu establishes JMZ as a poor fighter too but that was just a convenient placement of a villain rather than a hero.

    It's pretty disgraceful that BWM has to resort to suicide and was still prevented from being able to sucesfully commit suicide.
    I have already explained that that suicide might not be authentic. You haven't proved that it is.

    I don't get why you think that BWM=ZBT from 1 simple exchange, more than a few could handle ZBT from 1 exchange.
    It was NOT 1 exchange. Yeah it wasn't long, but Zhou Botong performed better than Yideng against Jinlun. No definitive proof to say that Jinlun = Zhou Botong but since both are slightly better than Yideng, I simply lumped them together.

    BWM couldn't even beat young YG/XLN or GJ with help from others, while ZBT has been recognized as a superior martial artists by the other greats.
    I'm talking about the post 16 years Jinlun.

    Nothing suggests to me that BWM is equal to ZBT.
    That's because you are blind due to your bias, and the entire forum knows it.

    It's really pointless to argue this further. I just don't believe that a guy who is meant to be equivalent to ZBT would have such a terrible win-loss record and so many humiliations.
    SO YOU ARE DENYING THAT JINLUN GUOSHI > YIDENG? YOU BETTER HAVE AN EXPLANATION FOR THIS. And I do mean a EXPLANATION based on post-16 years events, rather than the usual "look at his terrible outdated pre-16 years combat performance" crap.

    Didn't Leviathan started a thread about how GJ is a lousy character?
    The topic was called "Guo Jing: a very weak novel character" not "Guo Jing, I hate him." Laviathan explained why he thought Guo Jing was a poorly written character with evidences from the novel (as usual).

    That's why I consider him a staunch YG fan because from what I know, anti-GJ usually equals pro YG and vice versa.
    Your assumption may be true in some cases but not in this case.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ



    That's because you are blind and the entire forum knows it.

    I think it's too presumptive of you to think that most in the forum would agree with you that BWM=ZBT.

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