Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

[WuxiaMaster]

Since this thread is "dying down", let's start a new discussion. For a while now we've been adding character lvs at different point of the novels into the chart - but we haven't done anything for Duan Yu.

Duan Yu is currently place at LV85 at the end of the novel, this is after absorbing JMZ massive internal. What LV should he be at before this?

Remember that at the Shaolin battle, XF himself claim he would lose to DY. Considering XF is at LV 80, it makes DY being at LV85 AFTER absorbing JMZ seems incredibly "insufficient".

Did XF underestimate himself? (do you believe XF would lose to DY at this point?)

Or Should DY be LV85 pre JMZ, and LV90 post JMZ? How can we modify the rating to take this into account?

[Western Eccentric]

Yeahhh I believed Xiao Feng "underestimate" himself at this point I mean he might not win but he won't loss to his 3rd brother IMHO..

[a_tumiwa]

Duan Yu before absorbing Jiumozhi , his internal energy already higher than Jiumozhi, and i think jiumozhi internal is not much different than Xiao Feng, so i think even before absorbing jiumozhi, Duan Yu's internal energy is higher than xiao feng, the only problem is the real fight is not only depends on internal energy, so i think xiao feng have an advantage here, so probably a level lower or two or three, should be fair for Duan Yu pre-jiumozhi

[yangguo_]

TBH I don't know how DY got ranked so high up. XF pretty much had no problem against JMZ whenever they met. DY can't master 6MSJ. I don't know any other worthy people he sucked to get him past XF.

Not to mention XZ, without his assistants. Do we really think Berserker mode XF is not at Berserker mode XZ?

[yangguo_]

Yeahhh I believed Xiao Feng "underestimate" himself at this point I mean he might not win but he won't loss to his 3rd brother IMHO..

I just think they're all so humble to each other. The only person XF had trouble with was SM? I'm sure because of his youthfulness, berserker mode, he can beat his dad and mrb, plus of their sickness. If he can damage SM I'm sure he can damage XZ, not to mention none of the brothers can deal with dog beating staff.

[WuxiaMaster]

I think it'll be useful add some "remarks" to DY's lv (as we have done for some chars like ZWJ).

He is difficult to rate accurately due to his frequent "non-working" LMSJ, but when it does work - I believe he is as strong (or even stronger) than XF, pre-JMZ. This is taking into account his low LV of combat experience.

Remember that when XF and DY first met , DY internal is already stronger than XF. Even JMZ is terrified of DY when LMSJ is working.

Hence when rating DY, we should rate him base on LMSJ always working, but take into account his low combat capability/experience. If we rate base on LMSJ not working, then there's no point rating him at all (the difference is miles apart).

[_Kenny_]

Nice update. A minor correction. You put Yelu Qi twice for pre-16 years. One was based on the old ranking of having him at level 28.

How about dropping Wuji a few levels? I remember a few months back I did mentioned that since Xiao Feng was ranked level 80 when he's really level 75 (based on internal and external skills), but because of his fighting mentality gets a 5 level boost. I say the same should apply to Wuji, but in reverse. The guy frequently performs way below his current level of 77, maybe put him at level 72 with side remarks that his skills and internal are level 77, but because of his mentality gets minus a few levels.

[CC]

Nice update. A minor correction. You put Yelu Qi twice for pre-16 years. One was based on the old ranking of having him at level 28.

How about dropping Wuji a few levels? I remember a few months back I did mentioned that since Xiao Feng was ranked level 80 when he's really level 75 (based on internal and external skills), but because of his fighting mentality gets a 5 level boost. I say the same should apply to Wuji, but in reverse. The guy frequently performs way below his current level of 77, maybe put him at level 72 with side remarks that his skills and internal are level 77, but because of his mentality gets minus a few levels.

One problem with putting XF internal/skillset at 75 is that.....

LOCH H7G is also ranked at 75. And XF has more skills than H7G.

[WuxiaMaster]

One problem with putting XF internal/skillset at 75 is that.....

LOCH H7G is also ranked at 75. And XF has more skills than H7G.

How is it that XF have more skills than H7G? :P

Are you are specifically referring to the XL28Z? I think that is not an indication of higher skill LV.

Remember LV75 is the H7G in ROCH - the one who've had years of Jiuyin Internal. XF on the other hand have a "nameless" Shaolin Internal (Not even YJJ).

[WuxiaMaster]

Nice update. A minor correction. You put Yelu Qi twice for pre-16 years. One was based on the old ranking of having him at level 28.

How about dropping Wuji a few levels? I remember a few months back I did mentioned that since Xiao Feng was ranked level 80 when he's really level 75 (based on internal and external skills), but because of his fighting mentality gets a 5 level boost. I say the same should apply to Wuji, but in reverse. The guy frequently performs way below his current level of 77, maybe put him at level 72 with side remarks that his skills and internal are level 77, but because of his mentality gets minus a few levels.

Thanks for pointing out Yelu Qi I'll edit it later.

I don't think we should give a specific ranking for underperformance due to "mentality". It's not only hard to gauge, but it's a never-ending affair. How do you gauge his mentality when fighting Zhou Zhi Ruo? His mentality when fighting Xuan Ming Elders?

It would suffice to put a remark saying he frequently perform below this LV (by different amount in different situations) in the novel. At his best (going all out, which I think he did during battle against the du monks), he is at LV77.

For GWM, the chart ranking is him at his best too. And we should do the same for XZ/DY.

[a_tumiwa]

i think CC trying to mention what jin yong said in interview or something , that said xiao feng dragon subduing palm is more advance than the rest
i dont remember which interview, need to search first

[Western Eccentric]

Nice update. A minor correction. You put Yelu Qi twice for pre-16 years. One was based on the old ranking of having him at level 28.

How about dropping Wuji a few levels? I remember a few months back I did mentioned that since Xiao Feng was ranked level 80 when he's really level 75 (based on internal and external skills), but because of his fighting mentality gets a 5 level boost. I say the same should apply to Wuji, but in reverse. The guy frequently performs way below his current level of 77, maybe put him at level 72 with side remarks that his skills and internal are level 77, but because of his mentality gets minus a few levels.

Agree with you I think Lv 75 is Wuji "actual" level..

[Western Eccentric]

Thanks for pointing out Yelu Qi I'll edit it later.

I don't think we should give a specific ranking for underperformance due to "mentality". It's not only hard to gauge, but it's a never-ending affair. How do you gauge his mentality when fighting Zhou Zhi Ruo? His mentality when fighting Xuan Ming Elders?

It would suffice to put a remark saying he frequently perform below this LV (by different amount in different situations) in the novel. At his best (going all out, which I think he did during battle against the du monks), he is at LV77.

For GWM, the chart ranking is him at his best too. And we should do the same for XZ/DY.

Even at his "peak" (vs Du's Monk) he still can't "win" when 1 against 2 while the other vs Yang Xiao and Yin Tianzheng..
And we all know pre 16 years Guo Jing (Lv 77) ~/= Jinlun Fawang + Mongol Warriors so if Wuji really at Lv 77 he should easily win against 2 Du's Monk at their 2nd fight

[WuxiaMaster]

I was referring more to his lone fight against the 3 monks, and I sorta agree he didn't perform up to expectations in the 1v2.

That said, XF at LV80 couldn't beat MRF + YTZ, both who are rated slightly weaker than the Du Monks... soooo...

I know MRF + YTZ happen to have synergy, but the 3 monks is said to have achieved the stage of "complete telepathy" too. Even if they couldn't execute the 3 man formation, I would think the 2 monks together are stronger than 1+1.

[Western Eccentric]

You Tanzhi alone can 1 hit KO 1 of Xuan's Monk at HSDS since Xuan's ~/= Du's that's mean he's stronger than Xuan's/Du's and with Murong Fu they "combine" force at least as strong as Du's Demon Subduing Ring/Formation..

[yangguo_]

I think it'll be useful add some "remarks" to DY's lv (as we have done for some chars like ZWJ).

He is difficult to rate accurately due to his frequent "non-working" LMSJ, but when it does work - I believe he is as strong (or even stronger) than XF, pre-JMZ. This is taking into account his low LV of combat experience.

Remember that when XF and DY first met , DY internal is already stronger than XF. Even JMZ is terrified of DY when LMSJ is working.

Hence when rating DY, we should rate him base on LMSJ always working, but take into account his low combat capability/experience. If we rate base on LMSJ not working, then there's no point rating him at all (the difference is miles apart).

Personally I think we should do the math and just average it out where it is and isn't working. Because ranking him always working on the time.... why don't we rank XF enrage mode always working on the time.

[WuxiaMaster]

Personally I think we should do the math and just average it out where it is and isn't working. Because ranking him always working on the time.... why don't we rank XF enrage mode always working on the time.

I don't think "average out" is a good idea, especially for Duan Yu when his attack power variation is LV1 to LV90.

Yes, LV80 is XF in enraged mode. Read the FAQ - this chart always default to rating character at his/her best unless stated otherwise.

IMO, XF is rated so high not because his internal/martial arts are higher LV than the ROCH greats, but more due to his inherent traits. Call it the "Blood of Khitan People", or "Exceptional fighter instinct", or "Never give up, never say die willpower", but it is not because he has a stronger XL18Z, or godly internal. In fact I even think his internal is quite "average" (in greats-lv).

[CancerLuna]

Yeahhh I believed Xiao Feng "underestimate" himself at this point I mean he might not win but he won't loss to his 3rd brother IMHO..

In my opinion, DY with working 6msj would stomp XF. I don't think XF underestimated himself once he saw what DY can do.

[WuxiaMaster]

In my opinion, DY with working 6msj would stomp XF. I don't think XF underestimated himself once he saw what DY can do.

I went to re-read DY's battle at Shaolin and there are a few key moments. Ignoring DY's Ling Bo Wei Bu and under the state where he can't fire 6MSJ, he is basically LV1. There is no point rating him in this state.

- After MRF injure DZC, DY started firing 6MSJ using different 'fingers' and immediately MRF had to resort to 'all-out defense'. Despite employing all sorts of complex moves, he couldn't get anywhere near DY. Any weapons thrown over by his servants got instant-destroyed.

连数八九路刀法，每一路都能深中窍要，得其精义，旁观的使刀名家尽皆叹服可是他刀法虽精，始终无法欺近段誉 身旁。段誉一招“少冲剑”从左侧绕了过来，慕容复举刀一挡，当后声，一柄利刃又被震断。

- According to XF, DY have numerous opportunities to win the battle, but could not capitalize due to his "clumsiness". This we could attribute to his terrible combat ability and should be taken into account.

许多取胜的机会机会都莫名其妙的放了过去

- XF then advise DY to focus on using 1 finger at a time. After this advice, MRF became totally helpless and got forced further and further away within 10+ strokes. XF then thought that if he is in the same position as MRF, he would also find it "difficult to defend".

每一剑刺出，都有石破天惊、风雨大至之势，慕容复一笔一钩，渐感难以抵挡。段誉得到萧峰的指点，只是专使一 路少商剑法，果然这路剑法结构严谨，再无破绽。。。何况慕容复被他逼出丈许之外，全无还手余地。。。三弟剑 法如此神奇，我若和慕容复易地而处，确也难以抵敌。

- Interesting to note there is a statement that says DY only have this advantage because he's only attacking from afar with no need to think about defense. If he were to fight MRF "blow by blow" (I suppose it mean in close combat), he would lose easily.

Given this disprecrency, perhaps it'll be easier to rate DY on attack power (stating so in the chart), same like how we rate Qiu Qian Chi only on his internal.

[yangguo_]

I think it'll be useful add some "remarks" to DY's lv (as we have done for some chars like ZWJ).

He is difficult to rate accurately due to his frequent "non-working" LMSJ, but when it does work - I believe he is as strong (or even stronger) than XF, pre-JMZ. This is taking into account his low LV of combat experience.

Remember that when XF and DY first met , DY internal is already stronger than XF. Even JMZ is terrified of DY when LMSJ is working.

Hence when rating DY, we should rate him base on LMSJ always working, but take into account his low combat capability/experience. If we rate base on LMSJ not working, then there's no point rating him at all (the difference is miles apart).

Didn't SM say XF's XL18Z is number one. So He should be #2 in all of TL?