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Thread: Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

  1. #101
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    for your lower tier-

    Xuanci is suppose to be above Din Qun Chiu a bit and IMO Level 65.
    Reason?
    Xuannan fought with DCQ and in terms of martial arts, Xuannan was stronger and winning. However, Xuannan was stupid enough to touch the poisoned robe of DCQ when DCQ was infamous for poison (stupid eh?). However, strictly speaking in terms of martial arts, Xuannan was> DCQ. And Xuannan admitted that he was inferior to Xuanci. If Xuannan had used 袖里乾坤, he would have won.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  2. #102
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    Why is Guo Jing 76 when Yang Guo is 78?

  3. #103
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    I personally felt that YG was = to GJ, but then again, in terms of content proof, we don't have any do we(other than the fact that there internal was stated = in HSDS)? So I can't really say anything about it.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  4. #104
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    Well, I sez Guo Jing is better than Yang Guo. So if anything Guo Jing should be 80

    uh oh the godwin's law of spcnet has been invoked

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    I am talking about the overall proficiency of the Jinlun Guoshi which I consider 50% theory and the other 50% goes to actual combat performance. Theoretically his power should exceed the Greats (the 2x description and all) but in actual combat he probably can't beat them.
    Thanks for clearing that up, I just thought that whenever you guys make those ranking list, a higher ranked guy is supposed to beat a lower ranked guy. If your theory is that combat is not determined just by martial arts ability, which sounds a lot like GY's theory, then I'm much more inclined to agree with you. In my opinion, GJ's theory makes more sense than a theory that greater martial arts always wins. In the real world of competitive martial arts and sports, victory is determined by many factors other than one's ability or skills. Mental toughness, smarts, environment, etc all are big factors in whether victory is earned.

    Still, I don't believe that Jinlun is better than any great, if pure martial arts ability is considered. However, my belief in BWM<greats in pure martial arts is about 60-70% while my belief in BWM not having a chance in beating a great in combat is 100%. I'm willing to accept that it is possible that based on martial arts alone, BWM is better than a great. I just find it hard to believe that BWM's martial arts are equal to ZBT because 9YINJ is put on such a high pedestal in JY's world and the Quanzhen arts are just a little bit behind. While BWM's martial arts are given respect, JY has said more than once that the mainland martial arts are supreme and I think that BWM's final defeat by YG is another proof of that theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Yeah, I agree we have to look at the actual combat performances. However looking at the past is not all that helpful when we have the PRESENT POST-16 YEARS, peak of whatever level Jinlun Guoshi. So why don't we stick with his new experiences after his power increased.
    Even if we don't consider Jinlun's previous defeats before the 16 years, his one fight with QQR alone strike me as proof that Jinlun is still not that powerful, combined with the fact that he seemed unwilling to go 1 on 1 with GJ. Although I think that JY believes that GJ would kick BWM's butt just like YG and therefore has always found a way for there not to be a 1 on 1 fair fight between GJ&BWM. Since YG is the man in ROCH, it has to be left up to him to defeat BWM.

    Also, I think there's just too much emphasis on things like the one phrase that says BWM doubled in power. Why is that phase alone more important than all the other events which show that BWM is not evidently more powerful than a great or that in all likelihood would have be beaten by any of them as easily as he was beaten by YG? ZBT already handled QQR easily at the end of LOCH and in my opinon, QQR has been declining since he got a conscience and was mentally tormented by his past sins which will explain why QQR was beaten by a young, inexperienced YG. I think BWM has been training much more than QQR since BWM wanted revenge badly and at the same time Yideng has been leading QQR from the path of desiring power. I personally believe that a 1 day victory over a almost 100 year old man far from his prime tells me much more about Jinlun's abilities than a phrase that describes his power as having doubled.
    If not for those literal descriptions of BWM's power, I doubt people would even argue that BWM is better than the 4 greats. All the people I know that have only watched adaptations of ROCH concluded that BWM sucks and I don't know if we can really say that they are wrong because BWM's fights are pretty faithful to what happened in the novel.

    Since this is Sword God month, I'll mention him again as another example. Like Jinlun, we are told of the Sword God's amazing improvement because of his hard training for more than 10 years. However, the Sword God's actual performance in combat carries much more weight with me than the descriptions of his powers. That's just my opinion though, and I'm not trying to force you to accept my viewpoint. Also, isn't it more interesting to have someone that disagrees with the more popular method of ranking characters?

  6. #106
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    The Sword God's actual performance in combat was vs. Xu Zhu of all people, though. You can't base much off losing to Xu Zhu.

    The way I see it, JLFW was clearly beating Yideng.

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    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    The Sword God's actual performance in combat was vs. Xu Zhu of all people, though. You can't base much off losing to Xu Zhu.

    The way I see it, JLFW was clearly beating Yideng.
    XZ was extremely inexperienced at the time, even less experienced than when he fought DQQ and JMZ. If the Sword God really reached the pinnacle of swordmanship, he should have at least equaled JMZ's performance against XZ but he didn't.

    What was the final result of JLFW's exchange against Yiden? Did he hurt Yideng? No. YG was shown to have greater power than ZBT too but the conclusion of the sparring match showed that YG was equal at best to ZBT. JLFW showed that JLFW had greater power than Yideng but JY also commented that Yideng has greater calmness. A mental edge is just as important as a physical one and some would say that the mental advantage is even more important. During Michael Jordan's 2nd championship run, lots of younger players had physical advantages over him but when it comes to the game deciding moments, MJ's metal toughness was able to help him overcome the young guys' physical advantages. Even if JLFW had won that first exchange and was able to hurt Yideng, the fight is not over. There have been so many fights in boxing or mixed martial arts competitions where one guy hurts another badly in the beginning and still ends up losing. Nothing about JLFW's battle record convinces me that he's capable of beating Yideng or any great in a fight to the end.
    Last edited by Wu Wudi; 08-26-06 at 05:24 PM.

  8. #108
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    OK, JLFW was clearly stronger, white smoke was coming out of Yideng's head, Yideng was running out of energy. Barring any signs of JLFW committing suicide, I feel it's valid to conclude from this that JLFW would have won if the fight continued.

    Jordan was good in his 2nd championship run due to his greater skill and also the fact that he wouldn't choke due to his greater experience and personality. But Jordan was good consistently. He didn't suck for 95% of the game and then suddenly get awesome all of a sudden and win the game. In addition in the game deciding moments the game was close. In the JLFW vs Yideng case it would be more like JLFW building up an increasing lead and Yideng would have had to make a comeback, as opposed to merely a clutch 3pointer or whatever.

    My impression is that being hurt badly in wuxia is much different from being hit badly in say boxing. In boxing even if a fighter is hurt he is still capable of knocking out the other boxer in one punch if the other person is stupid. On the other hand, in wuxia if Yideng had been hurt badly, his inner power would have been disrupted and his offensive capability would have been greatly reduced. Thus he would have had major problems generating a sudden victory. In addition wuxia characters tend to be very skillful and thus unlikely to make mistakes of the sort that allow comebacks. In wuxia if character 1 is slightly better than character 2 and they fight, character 1 will generally win. Whereas in real life being slightly better might just mean you win 60% of the time and lose 40% of the time.

  9. #109
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    BWM wasn't clearly stronger, if he were, Yideng would have been hurt. The exchange was a draw because Yideng was calmer and able to disregard the distractions. Yideng didn't "suck" in that exchange either, BWM was said to have been using his full effort. Who knows if BWM would make another arrogant, stupid mistake like he did against GJ? You think BWM would win because of his potential but he's a 70 year old with a very poor track record. What makes you think that BWM would change his ways as a old guy?

    I agree with what you say about difference in injuries between boxing and wuxia. Still, I think there is some relevance in recognizing that there have been some huge upsets in boxing where a heavily injured guy beats an opponent in relatively good shape. I would think that mixed martial arts combat is closer to Wuxia and there have been examples of people winning even after having suffered damage that would make a normal person unconscious. Even in Wuxia, there are examples of people winning after suffering massive damge. ZWJ was definately weaker than Song Qinzhu after being stabbed in the chest but he still won. Z3F suffered a near fatal injury and still killed his attacker. I know you would probably say that ZWJ/Z3F beat people weaker than them but keep in mind that Yideng wasn't being ambushed by BWM and Yideng likely wouldn't have suffered such great damage. BWM has shown over and over again that he loses even when he should win, which is why I would bet against him beating any great in combat.
    Last edited by Wu Wudi; 08-26-06 at 06:44 PM.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    In wuxia if character 1 is slightly better than character 2 and they fight, character 1 will generally win. Whereas in real life being slightly better might just mean you win 60% of the time and lose 40% of the time.
    I tend to lean towards GL's belief that top martial artists are pretty much equal in power and that mental capabilities, personalities, environmental factors, etc. are bigger determinants in victory. Although in JY's world, victory is often determined by having greater power, JY has also shown many examples where victory was not given to the more powerful guy, such as BWM's loss against YG pre 16 yrs, OYF's minor defeats to GJ/HR in LOC, ZWJ's loss to the 3 persians, RWX losing to that guy with the cold internal power, etc.

  11. #111
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    BWM might have shown that he lost fights he was supposed to win, but are there any situations in which he was winning a fight but then suddenly choked?

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi
    I tend to lean towards GL's belief that top martial artists are pretty much equal in power and that mental capabilities, personalities, environmental factors, etc. are bigger determinants in victory. Although in JY's world, victory is often determined by having greater power, JY has also shown many examples where victory was not given to the more powerful guy, such as BWM's loss against YG pre 16 yrs, OYF's minor defeats to GJ/HR in LOC, ZWJ's loss to the 3 persians, RWX losing to that guy with the cold internal power, etc.
    Well.... let's see:
    BWM vs. YG: Technically saying in REAL martial arts, YG was winning because of the WIERDNESS of his palm strikes, not because YG trully was > BWM. And with wierdness comes FEAR in BWM's mind.
    OYF- I personally think OYF was too self-absorbed.
    ZWJ- AGAIN, the reason why ZWJ had trouble was because of the WIERDNESS factor again. IMO, we as the readers can't really blame people who fall for the wierdness factor. Look at ZZR, the whole WULIN fell for her wierdness factor when probably half of them were > ZZR. The 3 Wudang Heros all fell for Sacred Fire Tablet Art of ZWJ because JY SPECIFIALLY said that the art was too "wierd", NOT because Wudang was weaker (heck, JY even said Wudang arts are >).
    RWX- Tricked.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    Just as a side note: Yideng for sure would have lost to JLFW. Yideng was losing not in martial arts, but in the fact that his internal was depleting quickly while JLFW still had plenty of fuel left. In addition, there was the 2 eagles about 10 feet above JLFW's head constantly annoying him. So JLFW is reality was handling Yideng plus 2 annoying eagles. I know 2 eagles don't sound much, but in a fight between Greats, you have to eliminate all distractions and the 2 eagles that constantly want to attack JLFW were enough of a distraction.
    As for Yideng vs. BWM's case, I already wrote it here.
    I heavily disagee with Wu Wudi, it was VERY OBVIOUS that Yideng was going to lose eventually.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  14. #114
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    Note: This chart takes into consideration the"fighting capabiilty", in other words "the ability to battle another opponent" ONLY. It does not consider solely internal strength or swordplay or etc...It takes the character as a whole.

    Best example would be like Shi Po Tian. He got incredible Internal Energy that far surpass the entire Wulin very very early in the story, but at that time he would still be ranked like LV20 beause he TOTALLY DOES NOT KNOW HOW TO FIGHT. A LV45 expert being pushed back by him doesn't mean anything because he'll will get killed in 1 blow if they don't pit internal energy.

    Also, a SLIGHTER stronger character (LV 1 - LV3) would NOT DEFINITELY lose. However, if the difference is too huge (LV10) then he would definitely lose UNLESS of course factors like "poison" etc are taken in.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi
    What was the final result of JLFW's exchange against Yiden? Did he hurt Yideng? No. YG was shown to have greater power than ZBT too but the conclusion of the sparring match showed that YG was equal at best to ZBT. JLFW showed that JLFW had greater power than Yideng but JY also commented that Yideng has greater calmness. A mental edge is just as important as a physical one and some would say that the mental advantage is even more important. During Michael Jordan's 2nd championship run, lots of younger players had physical advantages over him but when it comes to the game deciding moments, MJ's metal toughness was able to help him overcome the young guys' physical advantages. Even if JLFW had won that first exchange and was able to hurt Yideng, the fight is not over.
    Let's start with MJ . MJ did have a physical disadvantage in comparision to the others, but he was still the best. While it's true that MJ had mental toughness and great will proven in the 1997 NBA Finals Game 5, but MJ also had the best overall skills in the league. MJ improved his jump-shot to a decent jump shot in his 2nd 3 peat. Also, MJ had a better team that worked together. Let's see: Toni Kukoc was 6th Man of the Year. Scottie was on the All NBA 1st Team in 96. Steve shot over 50% in 3-pointers. Dennis Rodman DOMINATED Rebouding by a HUGE margin.

    Ok, back to the real meat. Long term speaking, Yideng was just going to lose because of endurance reasons. I don't think BWM had greater power. IIRC, it was stated that BWM had greater PALM ENERGY than Yideng. And as I said, there were 2 annoying eagles that occasionly come in to annoy JLFW.

    YG was not at most = to ZBT. Maybe in martial arts yeah, but in a fight no. YG's Melancholic Sad Palm seemed to give ZBT lots of trouble when he actually decided to use it. And YG can clearly win in a real fight. Man, I don't know how many times I said it, but ZBT RAN OUT OF FUEL! Because of old age, ZBT got tired after an hour of trying to get YG to show the remaining 13 stances. And during that time, YG was successfully able to put up his defense.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  16. #116
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    I agree with Whsie (or Whsie agreed with me). IMHO, it goes something like this:

    x: Guo Jing, Yang Guo
    x-3: Zhou Botong
    x-5: Golden Wheel Monk
    x-7: Yideng, Huang Yaoshi

    Yang Guo was holding up very well against Golden Wheel Monk considering that his Sad Palms were not at full power. And I feel that Zhou Botong would definitely run out of gas before Yang Guo ran out. I think Yang Guo used Quanzhen arts to hold ZBT off; surely if he used Sad Palms then at least the fight would be prolonged until ZBT collapsed.

    IMHO, Zhou Botong > Golden Wheel Monk since ZBT appeared to do better vs Yang Guo, and because if their fight had gone on JLFW would likely have run out of energy faster since ZBT did not seem to be using up that much energy when he used Vacant Fist.

  17. #117
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    After looking at the rankings:

    I'm so far overall ok with the top tiers.

    3 things I noticed:
    1. you have Fang Yiao and Yang Xiao twice
    2. Zhang 3 and Li 4 should be in Duan Zhengming level because only Duan Zhengming level or higher can use (Un)Sealing Acupoints Through the Air Without Physical Contact (SATTAWPC). Zhang 3 and Li 4 used it on Shi Po Yu from 5 feet. In Mainland during Ode of Gallantary, no one could do that.
    3. You also forgot the Two Demons of Hejian Bu Tai and Hao Mi in HSDS. One of them was described as "one level inferior in both internal and external" to Dunan. Even though Dunan is the weakest of the 3 Du Monks, but it should still show that Bu Tai and Hao Mi indidvidually are very strong.
    Last edited by Whsie; 08-27-06 at 12:31 AM.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    Let's start with MJ . MJ did have a physical disadvantage in comparision to the others, but he was still the best. While it's true that MJ had mental toughness and great will proven in the 1997 NBA Finals Game 5, but MJ also had the best overall skills in the league. MJ improved his jump-shot to a decent jump shot in his 2nd 3 peat. Also, MJ had a better team that worked together. Let's see: Toni Kukoc was 6th Man of the Year. Scottie was on the All NBA 1st Team in 96. Steve shot over 50% in 3-pointers. Dennis Rodman DOMINATED Rebouding by a HUGE margin.

    Ok, back to the real meat. Long term speaking, Yideng was just going to lose because of endurance reasons. I don't think BWM had greater power. IIRC, it was stated that BWM had greater PALM ENERGY than Yideng. And as I said, there were 2 annoying eagles that occasionly come in to annoy JLFW.

    YG was not at most = to ZBT. Maybe in martial arts yeah, but in a fight no. YG's Melancholic Sad Palm seemed to give ZBT lots of trouble when he actually decided to use it. And YG can clearly win in a real fight. Man, I don't know how many times I said it, but ZBT RAN OUT OF FUEL! Because of old age, ZBT got tired after an hour of trying to get YG to show the remaining 13 stances. And during that time, YG was successfully able to put up his defense.
    Ok, let's talk about the basketball comparison first. I think MJ was the best player during the 2nd 3peat regardless of whether he won anonther championship or not, so it's not really relevant to bring in his teamates. During the 2nd 3peat, MJ had lost a lot of speed, quickness, and leaping ability. It was very clear that MJ could no longer go into the paint and jump around 3 people the way he rountinely did pre-retirement. In terms of shooting, MJ was a great in-game shooter but there are many people that can shoot better than MJ in a shooting contest. The 3 point contest has been dominated by lots of benchwarmers who don't shoot nearly as well in a game and much of it is because they don't have the confidence in the real game. I once played a pickup game with this guy who made 90% of his 3 point shots during warmups but he told me that he can't shoot that well in the game. I picked him anyway and truly he wasn't anywhere close to being as good in the game as he was in practice. He still got open shots but he just couldn't make them.

    I equate BWM to a great performer in an individual skill contest but in the actual game, he's just an all-star of the era like Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, etc. while the 4 greats are historic superstars like Magic, Jordan. BWM is a great workout player who shows awesome skills during pratice but who doesn't perform in the game, he's basically a better version of Darko.

    Even after the post 16 years leap, BWM did not show me that he is capable of beating a great because he lost so easily to YG and he took much longer to beat QQR than one would expect. Keep in mind also that GJ would have finished off BWM in less than 5 stances in their first exchange if they had a real fight.
    To me, the end result of JY&BWM was a tie because neither hurt the other and Yideng's mental edge offsets BWM's mental edge. I still think that you guys place too much emphasis on all the details of the fight instead of looking at what happened. When young GJ fought OYK, JY kept saying that OYK is actually better in martial arts but GJ still kicked OYK's butt TWICE. I feel that JY puts in those details to make the fights more exciting and intersting but the end results are more important than the details in determining who is more powerful. The details would suggest that OYK is more powerful but the results show that JY meant for GJ to have surpassed OYK already. Like I said before, if you just watched the TV adapations of ROCH, you wouldn't argue that BWM is anything but a jobber to the stars. I do understand you and K2grey's viewpoints though because how many people picked Ali (Yideng) over Foreman (BWM)?

    Also, in terms of interpreting JY's intentions, I just feel that JY didn't mean for BWM to be >greats because of the many humiliating things that happened to BWM, YG's ability to win easily against BWM while YG was only able to tie the greats. Keep in mind also that JY never put into a Great's mind that BWM has surpassed him. The Greats are arrogant (except for Yideng) but as 1 generation Martial Masters, they are also wiling to admit people who are better than them such as HYS/H7G accepting that OYF was better or the other greats who admitted that WCY/ZBT was superiorl.
    I know that you disagree about YG only tying against the greats but I will discuss that more in detail tomorrow. I do feel that YG is meant to be >greats but in the course of the story, YG hadn't reach that level yet.
    Last edited by Wu Wudi; 08-27-06 at 01:02 AM.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi
    Ok, let's talk about the basketball comparison first. I think MJ was the best player during the 2nd 3peat regardless of whether he won anonther championship or not, so it's not really relevant to bring in his teamates. During the 2nd 3peat, MJ had lost a lot of speed, quickness, and leaping ability. It was very clear that MJ could no longer go into the paint and jump around 3 people the way he rountinely did pre-retirement. In terms of shooting, MJ was a great in-game shooter but there are many people that can shoot better than MJ in a shooting contest. The 3 point contest has been dominated by lots of benchwarmers who don't shoot nearly as well in a game and much of it is because they don't have the confidence in the real game. I once played a pickup game with this guy who made 90% of his 3 point shots during warmups but he told me that he can't shoot that well in the game. I picked him anyway and truly he wasn't anywhere close to being as good in the game as he was in practice. He still got open shots but he just couldn't make them.

    Even after the post 16 years leap, BWM did not show me that he is capable of beating a great because he lost so easily to YG and he took much longer to beat QQR than one would expect. Keep in mind also that GJ would have finished off BWM in less than 5 stances in their first exchange if they had a real fight.

    Also, in terms of interpreting JY's intentions, I just feel that JY didn't mean for BWM to be >greats because of the many humiliating things that happened to BWM, YG's ability to win easily against BWM while YG was only able to tie the greats. Keep in mind also that JY never put into a Great's mind that BWM has surpassed him.
    I'll talk about basketball later.

    Ok, BWM as I said lost to the wierdness factor, not neccesary having weaker arts. At he lost easily in the end because it was a suprise attack when BWM thought that YG was already defeated.
    As for QQR. I don't remember this very well, but look at the time. IIRC, JLFW mastered Level 10 of Dragon Elephant Prana Skill around the time at the end of ROCH. On the other hand, QQR was beated about 4-6 months ago (can someone confirm this? I don't remember the exact time). So it could very had been that JLFW got a boost AFTER he beated QQR.
    And why do you say that GJ can beat JLFW in 5 stances? If you're talking about that 2nd palm exchange, that was only because JLFW was too proud to let the palm energy go away. But if JLFW had let the palm energy go away, then JLFW then defiitnitely can go beyond 300 stances.

    I admit that I feel MJ is the best ever and was defitnitely the best between 96-98 even with his age. The thing is that without his teammates, it would be just another 84-90 playoff scenario. With weaker teammates, MJ can no doubt still lead the team into the playoff, but basketball is a team game, so the team with the best bond wins in the end. It's like in the 87-88 season. MJ average 35 points, 3.16 steals, 8 assists, 8 rebounds, over 1.5 blocks (leads all guards), 80%+ in FT, 50%+ in FG + he won the Defensive Player of The Year Honors. That is like godly stats and the Bulls plan was simple, give it to the ball to Michael and "Save me!". It worked against the Cavaliers in the 1st round with MJ making "The Shot", but when the Bulls met the Pistons, they got screwed over by Daly's method which was also simple but effective- triple team (sometimes quadraple team) Michael everytime he gets the ball.
    While MJ did lost his atheletic ability because he was 33-35 in his 2nd 3 peat, he developed his jumper. In comparision to his younger times, MJ shot at a much higher %. In 3-point, he went above 37% (42.7% in 96) and managed above 80% in FT. Even though MJ was still not the best shooter(Reggie Miller is no doubt one of the best in history), but he at least was now a "dangerous" shooter.
    Last edited by Whsie; 08-27-06 at 01:23 AM.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi
    Also, in terms of interpreting JY's intentions, I just feel that JY didn't mean for BWM to be >greats because of the many humiliating things that happened to BWM, YG's ability to win easily against BWM while YG was only able to tie the greats.
    One factor contributing to the easy defeat of GWM, IMO, is because YG's Sad Palms during that battle was much stronger than his usual Sad Palms. Before his encounter with XLN, he was certain that XLN is alive. Although he felt misery as in having to wait for so long just to meet XLN once again, there is hope that he will see XLN again.

    During the battle with GWM, he felt total despair when he was about to get killed by GWM. Here, he felt he is NEVER going to see XLN ever again. A gloomy dead end awaits him, unlike the past where he has to struggle through the journey of loneliness. Given the disparity in emotions between the two circumstances, I will say there is reason for YG to defeat GWM not because he was much stronger. When YG challenges HYS in that pavillion or something, YG surely wasn't feeling this sad, in fact, he was about to meet XLN in a few days. How do you put both circumstances in the same level?

    You might know this, but I felt the need to reiterate this. The heart controls the arm, and the arm controls the palms. Any difference in emotion will affect the end result of the Melancholic Palms.

    Keep in mind also that JY never put into a Great's mind that BWM has surpassed him. The Greats are arrogant (except for Yideng) but as 1 generation Martial Masters, they are also wiling to admit people who are better than them such as HYS/H7G accepting that OYF was better or the other greats who admitted that WCY/ZBT was superiorl.
    And keep in mind it wasn't all about being humble too.

    GWM did not crumble under the combined forces of the three Greats. This is a feat not somebody of a Great level can withstand. He was still resisting the forces of two Greats, until the force of a third Great comes in, he lost, but this still shows he is superior to them. You don't need a whole long explanation to understand what this means.

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