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Thread: Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

  1. #161
    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    And there's no proof that DGQB was any higher than Level 80.
    Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

    He's not given a number. He could be as low as 80 (though unlikely, given that his sword skills are better than LHC's [who was arguably the best technical swordsman in the novel series], and his internal likely as good or better than YG's). But he also has an untold and only speculative maximum. He is also a "legend," considering he was mentioned in DOMD as someone who was notable as the greatest of his era. I see nothing wrong with putting him where he is. There's no point giving him a number because there is neither proof for or against. Neutral quantities are placed in neutral categories.

    The illogical thing to do would be to give him a number without a valid logical argument to support it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    Internal? No mention of his internal being any better than Yang Guo's.
    As for his internal, that's because his actual level was never disclosed. We can only guess at it from snippets and what he left behind. He did not leave a manuscript or internal technique, but he did have a training technique, and if we can rely on the story from ROCH, his internal is likely greater than YG's because of his ability to wield the wooden sword and beyond, and it was mentioned while YG was training with the wooden sword that the difference was internal energy.

    Also consider that DGQB, by all intents and purposes (and all logical deduction) had far more time and more access to the snake gallbladders and waterfall training method, and it's almost inevitable that his internal (and perhaps substantially so) is greater than YG's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    Use anything as a sword? Dong Fang Bu Bai was able to fight with a needle.
    Not using sword techniques, he wasn't.

    A lot of pugilists used their fists. I guess all of them are as good than him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    Sword without a sword? Duan Yu had 6MSJ.
    And Duan Yu's 6MSJ is arguably the greatest thing in the entire JY-universe. If Duan Yu could actually master it, he would probably be at that legendary level. Too bad he couldn't.

    Not to mention, even 6MSJ doesn't have a stance that can break theoretically anything. By this kind logic, since DG9J is the only thing that we can say canonically defies the laws of physics (interesting position my left foot) and can be used to incredible effectively WITHOUT internal energy, it's the best.

    I bet you aren't satisfied with that, so you shouldn't use the other extreme.
    Last edited by ChanceEncounter; 07-04-08 at 06:06 AM.

  2. #162
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    All you've proven is that there isn't enough information to rank him at all.

  3. #163
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    All you've proven is that there isn't enough information to rank him at all.
    ChanceEncounter has explained why we can somewhat establish a minimum rank for DGQB but no maximum rank. if you would rather just ignore those explainations, no one can force you to believe then.

  4. #164
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    I'd just like to (once again) assert that "Use anything as sword" is more than simply being able to use anything as a weapon. This isn't extremely extraordinary because even someone like LHC (pre-DG9J) was very aware that with good internal energy, even a sleeve could be a weapon.

    What makes this stage special is that one can use anything as a sword just "as good" as a real sword. Therefore, DFBB was not doing this with a needle since he was clearly hampered by the needle.



    I also want to assert that 6MSJ isn't "No Sword" at all! DGQB's inscription maintains that he could overcome a sword without a sword. We already know that the previous stage was to be able to use anything as a sword. This "anything" is still a sword though, whether it be a leaf, a branch or chi itself. There's no limitation that it has to be something weaker than a sword in ordinary circumstances.

    Therefore, 6MSJ is really just a sword technique based on an extremely powerful swords. It, in its primary form, is still limited to its sword techniques (based on unbreakable and fathomlessly sharp swords that cuts all ways).

  5. #165
    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    I would say that, at the very minimum, DGQB should be considerably stronger than DFBB simply by in-universe logic and what JY said in the novels and interviews.

    Step 1: DGQB mastered DG9J (this much is obvious, he created the damn thing, after all). DFBB mastered the Sunflower. This is roughly half of the Sunflower/Pixie manual left by the eunuch.

    Step 2: JY stated in an interview that he thinks DG9J would win against Sunflower/Pixie.

    Step 3: It's hard to assert that DFBB is more proficient at Sunflower/Pixie than DGQB is at DG9J, considering DFBB had the manual for about 12 or 13 years, while DGQB has been juggling his theories for his entire lifetime.

    Step 4: LHC, logically inferior to DGQB, was able to see flaws in DFBB's techniques that a better DG9J user could exploit. He couldn't because he had shit for internal and only used the sword techniques for less than a year.

    Step 5: Because of 1-4, it's logical to assume the DGQB would have at least DFBB's technical ability and would be able to exploit his weaknesses in technique and beat him consistently.

    Since DFBB is rather clearly level 80, and one of the stronger characters that we've seen fight in the JY-universe, it's pretty clear that DGQB should be up there. Consider JY's author intention by bringing him up in 3 novels even though he's never so much as shown his face in any of them (as well as introducing the paragon of his 'formlessness' motif), and it's clear he's setting up a mysterious ultimate swordsman persona.

    I would say given this information, DGQB should be a minimum of 85, and a maximum of untold levels. We have no evidence of what this maximum is, and he is a 'legendary level' duelist, so thus, there is nothing wrong with his placement.

    QED.

  6. #166
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    I agree with the spirit of what you're saying but I'm going to point out a few flaws =)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    Step 1: DGQB mastered DG9J (this much is obvious, he created the damn thing, after all).
    Not necessarily since QKDNY's creator never mastered the final level. Neither did the creator of the Elephant Sutra. Nor did the 9 Yang creator use his creation.

    I DO believe that DGQB DID master his art though.

    Step 4: LHC, logically inferior to DGQB, was able to see flaws in DFBB's techniques that a better DG9J user could exploit. He couldn't because he had shit for internal and only used the sword techniques for less than a year.
    LHC at this point had very strong internal energy that was completely usable as long as it was consciously done so (no auto-protect).

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    I'm going to ignore a lot of the weaker characters, mainly because they get trashed so badly it's nearly impossible to definitely state who's stronger than who.

    That said, here's a better look at the elite:

    SPT is good, yes. But why complain about DGQB and not SPT? SPT was a newbbasher. He's the DFBB of XKX. Both of them are really really hard to place correctly. How important is internal energy vs techniques? HSDS makes us believe internal energy is 90% of the fight. If that's true, DFBB falls 50 ranks at least.

    In fact, if you walk through many of the novels, higher internal energy = win mostly. It is well known that the characters in XAJH had horrible (just awful awful) internal energy compared to the elite of other books. SPT had godlike internal energy, and pretty mediocre techniques besides his trancing attacks. What's a consistent way to rank him?

    On what should we put emphasis? You can't both rank ZWJ and DFBB high at the same time. ZWJ was cruising through his fights knowing almost no techniques and being carried by 9YSG, whereas DFBB showed NO evidence of any cultivation.

    Further, the ranking DGSD ranking is nonsense.

    It was EXPLICITLY written in DGSD that Xu Zhu at the end was unbeatable. He's certainly higher than anyone else in that book besides sweeper. In my opinion, by a ton. A shade below super monk, sure. But not much more than that. He's about 3 times as powerful as the next strongest, Wu Ya Zi who's about equal to the 2 girls, who are all stronger than Qiao Feng. How exactly do you HURT Xu Zhu? I'm pretty sure it's impossible.

    Duan Yu is random. He can be rated as low as LHC and as high as #2 behind Xu Zhu. His average ability seems like crap, but once his girlfriend is in danger, he's pretty devastating. He also has the most broken moveset out of any of the characters.

    Let's assume Duan Yu doesn't suck and put him on par with Xiao Feng. They should easily be 10-15 higher than the LOCH/ROCH elites. I can't possibly see an argument otherwise. Are you saying something as mundane as Yiyang zhi is as powerful as 6msj? That's crap and you know it. If Yideng is on par (weaker, but on par) with the best of the best in LOCH, he's WAY WAY WAY below the elite of DGSD if you put DY at XF. If you put DY way ahead of XF, then you have some logic, except that XF outperforms DY at every turn, so that's problematic.

    ZSF higher is ok, since he's a good martial artist, albeit a bit old.

    ZWF that high is stupid. He would lose badly to any of the elites in LOCH or ROCH, and saying otherwise is ignorant. He doesn't win against anyone of his caliber, and even aginst weaklings he has too much trouble. He would last MAYBE 10 stances against GJ or YG.

    So you disagree? ZWJ's internal energy is supreme? Remove DFBB 60 rankings to the level of the 7 freaks of Jiangnan. Fighting ability? ZWJ sucks. He doesn't win. Throw his sorry butt down.

    See? There's irreconcilable problems in the way the ranking is set up.

    HS should be on par with DGQB. A bit lower probably, but there was a very convincing article saying that the two were related. I believe it.

    And there's so many other errors as well, mainly overestimating newbs that got too much hype. I would change maybe 20-30 of the placements, and I think the textual evidence is overwhelming.

    These arguments about whether or not DGQB is up there are distracting and retarded, considering JY already said publicly he IS one of the strongest.

  8. #168
    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    I agree with the spirit of what you're saying but I'm going to point out a few flaws =)
    Cool deal.

    Not necessarily since QKDNY's creator never mastered the final level. Neither did the creator of the Elephant Sutra. Nor did the 9 Yang creator use his creation.

    I DO believe that DGQB DID master his art though.
    Your right, but in these cases, I don't believe anyone mastered the final levels; in part because they may be inherently unmasterable.

    DGQB certainly got to, at least, the wooden sword stage, and if his tomb is reliable (there is no reason to believe otherwise), the no sword stage too.

    LHC at this point had very strong internal energy that was completely usable as long as it was consciously done so (no auto-protect).
    I should have clarified. In relative terms, LHC's internal, even at this stage, was not great. Within the novel, his internal certainly did not come near the ROCH's greats. DGQB logically should have just as good, if not substantially better, internal as the greats. Thus, comparably speaking, his internal is much stronger than LHC's.

    ========

    In fact, if you walk through many of the novels, higher internal energy = win mostly. It is well known that the characters in XAJH had horrible (just awful awful) internal energy compared to the elite of other books. SPT had godlike internal energy, and pretty mediocre techniques besides his trancing attacks. What's a consistent way to rank him?
    XAJH, with DG9J, is also one of the few cases where it is also explicitly shown that great techniques can BEAT higher internal, when LHC was still incredibly effective even when he had next to no internal energy.

    In most cases, I believe you're right; better internal gives you an advantage. But if you have a tremendously good technique, you can overcome this. Techniques of this caliber include stuff like 6MSJ, DG9J, and 9Yin.

    It was EXPLICITLY written in DGSD that Xu Zhu at the end was unbeatable. He's certainly higher than anyone else in that book besides sweeper. In my opinion, by a ton. A shade below super monk, sure. But not much more than that. He's about 3 times as powerful as the next strongest, Wu Ya Zi who's about equal to the 2 girls, who are all stronger than Qiao Feng. How exactly do you HURT Xu Zhu? I'm pretty sure it's impossible.
    Agree entirely. Xu Zhu is clearly the best of the DGSD three, and he is up there with SPT. SPT was certainly impressive, but I don't belive he's clearly the strongest protagonist of all.

    These arguments about whether or not DGQB is up there are distracting and retarded, considering JY already said publicly he IS one of the strongest.
    I actually agree. However, DGQB gets attacked on this forum by a lot of individuals who think he's overrated.

    Which really begs the question. If a huge contingent thinks he's 'overrated,' is he still overrated?
    Last edited by ChanceEncounter; 07-04-08 at 07:37 PM.

  9. #169
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    XAJH, with DG9J, is also one of the few cases where it is also explicitly shown that great techniques can BEAT higher internal, when LHC was still incredibly effective even when he had next to no internal energy.
    Which is only logical of course. Great technique can shore up relative weaknesses in internal energy. Likewise, great internal energy can help cover up relative weakness in technique.

    This was made clear by the first clash between GWM and GJ.


    XAJH is unique that it had a fighter that gets tremendous technique before any appreciable internal energy.

    DGSD gets to have a few people who get unbelievable internal energy without much technique (at first).



    Even in both cases, they need some technique and internal energy. XZ needed the XYP techniques to stop getting simply pounded to death by KMZ (death by a thousand paper cuts). LHC only survived the LDA because he actually had a lot of internal energy flowing inside of him (which protected his organs).
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 07-04-08 at 08:30 PM.

  10. #170
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    This chart ranks based on combat ability (essentially, the ability to beat another person). It doesn't consider solely technique or internal.

    It was EXPLICITLY written in DGSD that Xu Zhu at the end was unbeatable. He's certainly higher than anyone else in that book besides sweeper. In my opinion, by a ton. A shade below super monk, sure. But not much more than that. He's about 3 times as powerful as the next strongest, Wu Ya Zi who's about equal to the 2 girls, who are all stronger than Qiao Feng. How exactly do you HURT Xu Zhu? I'm pretty sure it's impossible.
    Yes but once again, combat ability and not "max potential". I don't believe Xu Zhu can defeat Tian Shan Tong Lao even with his internal. In fact, it's quite likely he'll get owned. Anyone to comment on this?

    Let's assume Duan Yu doesn't suck and put him on par with Xiao Feng. They should easily be 10-15 higher than the LOCH/ROCH elites. I can't possibly see an argument otherwise. Are you saying something as mundane as Yiyang zhi is as powerful as 6msj?
    Meaning Xiao Feng is 10 - 15 higher than Guo Jing? (Since Guo Jing is slightly more than the old ROCH elites) That means Guo Jing get thrash by Xiao Feng in about 5 stance?

    ZWF that high is stupid. He would lose badly to any of the elites in LOCH or ROCH, and saying otherwise is ignorant. He doesn't win against anyone of his caliber, and even aginst weaklings he has too much trouble. He would last MAYBE 10 stances against GJ or YG.
    ... Anyone? ZWJ lasting 10 stances against GJ open for debate.
    Last edited by WuxiaMaster; 07-04-08 at 10:52 PM.

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    No, I didn't say potential.

    I said Xu Zhu had REACHED that level at the end of the book. It was EXPLICITLY STATED. It wasn't IMPLIED HE WOULD. It was stated. The end.

    I'm not sure Guo Jing would survive a single stance from QF, and similarly, I can definitely see JWZ losing to GJ in a few stances (2 hand combat 2x Dragon Palms)

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    How would you all rank Huang Shang? Someone who:

    1) Created a kung fu that allowed Guo Jing to match the Greats by the time he was in his 30's.

    2) Created a kung fu even Dong Xie, Xi Du, Nan Di, Bei Gai and Zhong Shen Tong could learn new things from.

    3) Mastered his own creation.

  13. #173
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    How would you all rank Huang Shang? Someone who:

    1) Created a kung fu that allowed Guo Jing to match the Greats by the time he was in his 30's.

    2) Created a kung fu even Dong Xie, Xi Du, Nan Di, Bei Gai and Zhong Shen Tong could learn new things from.

    3) Mastered his own creation.
    at least above the greats. was there a disagreement about that?

  14. #174
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntingX View Post
    In fact, if you walk through many of the novels, higher internal energy = win mostly. It is well known that the characters in XAJH had horrible (just awful awful) internal energy compared to the elite of other books. SPT had godlike internal energy, and pretty mediocre techniques besides his trancing attacks. What's a consistent way to rank him?

    On what should we put emphasis? You can't both rank ZWJ and DFBB high at the same time. ZWJ was cruising through his fights knowing almost no techniques and being carried by 9YSG, whereas DFBB showed NO evidence of any cultivation.
    Oh, so much XAJH error in a just a pair of paragraphs! You'll have to pardon me if I take exception to these claims, as XAJH is my favorite novel

    1) On what basis are you making the claim that XAJH fighters have 'awful' internal energy? We have, just on a casual count:

    1a) Low-level fighters projecting long distance lethal palm attacks ("Great Ying-Yang Palm" Yue Hou),

    1b) Third tier fighters (second if you ignore DFBB) whose casual kicks impart hundreds of pounds worth of force (Xiang Wentian literally booted horses weighing hundreds of pounds into a ravine with casual ease),

    1c) A third tier fighter who could, just by shifting his internal energy to his feet and without any visible use of force, create perfectly formed two-inch deep footprints on solid brick, (Xiang Wentian at the Jiangnan Playboy mansion),

    1d) A fourth rate fighter who had reached such a level of internal energy that his aging process had actually reversed, much like Zhou Botong (Yue Buqun, due to his cultivation of the Zixia Shengong),

    1e) A fourth rate fighter who was able to generate visible sword energy as part of his attacks (Mr. Paint, the 4th Jiangnan Playboy),

    1f) A second rate fighter and a second-to-fourth rate fighter who were able to easily hold a conversation by writing with their fingers on wood, something which Qiu Chuji thought would be difficult even for Yideng, and which was clearly far beyond his own abilities (Shaolin abbot Fang Zheng and the beggar clan leader),

    1g) A second rate fighter who, in a fit of hurried whimsy, was able to write on solid steel, most likely with his fingers (Ren Woxing, leaving behind his Xixing Dafa instructions at the Xihu prison),

    1h) A Shaolin abbot who actually mastered Yijinjing, repeatedly said to be the most powerful internal energy manuscript available to Shaolin (again, Fang Zheng),

    1i) A second rate fighter who was able to, using just his five fingers, pierce through a protective metal gown that was invulnerable to blades and rip out the gown-wearer's heart (Ren Woxing, in killing Xue Xiang).

    I could go on and on and on, but I'll stop here. Anyone who thinks that XAJH's characters have low internal energy really isn't paying close attention to the novel at all! That, or they are just trying to come up with excuses to ignore these many instances of incredible XAJH feats in order to satisfy their own biases :P XAJH isn't about low internal energy characters; it has a lot of powerful, high internal energy characters who just happen to get their butts kicked by a guy who has almost no internal energy for most of the book!

    2) DFBB was able to easily block the sword attacks of a man who had absorbed the energies of multiple martial arts masters via a reconstructed Beiming (Ren Woxing, using his Xixing Dafa) using nothing but a needle; moreover, DFBB was fighting in a leisurely way, whereas Ren Woxing began panting and roaring during the fight! How can this be considered to be 'low internal energy'?

    Keep in mind, Duan Yu's internal energy had already surpassed Xiao Feng after absorbing the martial arts energy of extremely low level scrubs of the Divine Farmer clan, and just some of the internal energy of the 3 weaker Evils, who also had relatively crappy internal energy. Do you really think those guys have higher internal energy than some of the top martial arts exponents of XAJH who RWX drained?! And where does that then put DFBB?
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 07-05-08 at 04:54 PM.
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    I'm not going to go over most of these since there's similar accomplishments in even really really low level martial arts books (DOMD, Flying Fox, etc.)

    But to say that DY is inferior in internal energy is anyone in XAJH is just ignorant. It's like saying Guo Jing can go and beat up Xu Zhu. I mean, what does Xu Zhu have? Besides being IMMUNE TO ALL WEAPONS AND ATTACKS. I don't mean like... it's hard to hit him. I mean hitting him with weapons (even precious ones) sorta do nothing.

    LHC, on the other hand who has reasonable internal energy in XAJH, gets injured by the wind of random palms of complete scrubs.

    The ONLY feat that I have a hard time figuring out is the writing one. Maybe the walls are really soft or they cheated with something. It IS stated that RWX probably did NOT write on steel with his fingers. Whereever you found that is just wrong. XAJH is the book with the most out of place feats. Maybe the characters learned tricks to accomplish previously difficult tasks. But the overall level is low low low.

    XXDF is a crap skill. It's ONLY useful in XAJH since everyone is terrible at internal energy. And the YJJ in XAJH is CLEARLY not the same as the one in DGSD. I really don't know where you come up with this stuff.

    The ONLY valid argument you can make is comparing the top XAJH characters to the midtier characters in LOCH/Roch. You can't possibly compare stuff in XAJH to the MYTHICAL GODLIKE characters in DGSD.

    You're just ignoring the author's intentions. I went over this debate in another thread, and I'm not going to present all my points. Needless to say, DY with 6MSJ (let's assume his GF was in danger or something) could trash the entire combined Wulin community of XAJH. To compare something as ridiculously OP as 6MSJ with the sunflower manual is insane.

    The ONLY real issue is DG9J. If LHC was faster, he would have beaten DFBB, and this is stated explicitly. The only real question is how fast is DFBB? We have subjective measurements, but nothing concrete. My guess is it's about as fast as XLN was in ROCH. Maybe I'm wrong, but your "examples" are well known and vague at best. They "prove" nothing. The fact that a leaking LHc was able to beat every single fighter below the second tier says a lot about the level of internal energy.

    Just as a final note

    It might be fun to twist the author's intentions to whatever you want. Feel free to do that. But just because this forum comes to some "consensus" doesn't mean it's the "truth."

    I'm not "twisting" the events to fit my own bias, you're twisting them to fit yours. Just because there's some fad about how "great and awesome" the XAJH characters are, you duly follow suit.

    JY's INTENTION has always been power-diminishing through every novel.
    Clearly, as we get closer and closer to present day, the martial arts get less and less profound. Otherwise, we'd have people flying around like fighter jets.

    Whether or not you believe it is irrelevant. The problem with a forum argument that drags on and on is a few people who have some bizarre agenda start some massive campaign to change public opinion on a book.

    The FIRST impression one gets when reading XAJH is that internal energy is unimportant.

    And that's the CORRECT impression.
    Last edited by HuntingX; 07-05-08 at 05:27 PM.

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    Though a bit aggressive and assumptive, I agree with a lot of points.

  17. #177
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntingX View Post
    I'm not going to go over most of these since there's similar accomplishments in even really really low level martial arts books (DOMD, Flying Fox, etc.)
    unproven pressumptions. why would the DOMD & FF martial artists be considered "low level" if they can perform feats that high level martial artists of other novels can perform?

    HuntingX]The ONLY feat that I have a hard time figuring out is the writing one. Maybe the walls are really soft or they cheated with something.
    oh right. By specifically stating that the wood is new hardwood, JY's intentions must be to have readers themselves to imagine and pretend that Fang Zhang & Jie Feng cheated by making the wood softer, or that LHC's observations are inaccurate. certainly. that must be JY's intentions.

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntingX
    The ONLY valid argument you can make is comparing the top XAJH characters to the midtier characters in LOCH/Roch. You can't possibly compare stuff in XAJH to the MYTHICAL GODLIKE characters in DGSD.

    XXDF is a crap skill. It's ONLY useful in XAJH since everyone is terrible at internal energy. And the YJJ in XAJH is CLEARLY not the same as the one in DGSD. I really don't know where you come up with this stuff.
    and I don't know where you come up with that stuff. Show us.


    JY's INTENTION has always been power-diminishing through every novel.
    Clearly, as we get closer and closer to present day, the martial arts get less and less profound. Otherwise, we'd have people flying around like fighter jets.
    Proof? I haven't read anywhere that JY's intentions are so.
    Perhaps some people have gotten an "impression", but "impresson" does not mean "truth". nor does it equate to "author's intentions". unless you have find solid text to back it up, then perhaps it is only but your "impression". what makes you so sure you arn't twisting the "text" to fit your "impression"?

    The FIRST impression one gets when reading XAJH is that internal energy is unimportant.

    And that's the CORRECT impression.
    nowhere in the novel does JY imply that internal energy is unimportant. ie. Huashan civil war, Sunflower manual, XXDF, LHC's inability to perform w/o internal energy, etc all point to the importance of internal energy. XAJH is about the debate between internal energy vs. technique, not the "unimportance of internal energy".
    tv only watcher might get the impression that internal energy is unimportant b/c LHC is able to defeat others when internal energy doesn't come into play, but novel readers should know better.
    and in any case, "first impression" does not equate to "correct impression".
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 07-05-08 at 06:47 PM.

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    If you're a typical forum warrior here, you've proven my point far better than any copious amount of text could.

    Thank you.

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    And even more assertions made without proof too.

    YJJ in XAJH may not be the same as DGSD. But there's no proof that is it or not. Certainly it's not clear. YTZ's case was a freak accident coupling extreme poison and YJJ. Considering FZ's comments about the karma to learn YJJ, YTZ's extreme need for YJJ to ensure survival fits.

    Furthermore, JY revised it so that it was Yoga in DGSD so there's no point of comparison at all.



    And then there's XXDF. You assert that it's useless without any proof. It might be (and probably is) inferior to BMSG even outside of the merging energies part, but at the very least we know it can draw energy out of people with superior internal energy (which BMSG explicitly cannot do) and can draw energy through weaponry (which BMSG has not been shown to do).

  20. #180
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntingX View Post
    If you're a typical forum warrior here, you've proven my point far better than any copious amount of text could.

    Thank you.
    if that's ur idea of "proof"...i don't know if i should burst your bubble.
    Last edited by Ren Ying Ying; 07-05-08 at 07:04 PM.

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