Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

[WuxiaMaster]

I'm trying to add more chars to the chart and would need some opinion on where the "Ben generation" monks at Heavenly Dragon Temple stands.

Currently we have:
Xiao Feng at 80, JMZ at 77 (plan to move him up slightly), DYQ/DZM at 65 and MRF/YTZ at 60.

Adding the Ben generation monk would totally mess up the chart.
1. Kurong is a level higher than DZM, so let's say we slot him in at 70.
2. Any idea on the rough level of the other 4 Ben generation monk? Don't tell me they're individually stronger than MRF?

So basically, JMZ can fight to a draw with Kurong + DZM + 4 Ben Generation Monks (1v6).

But XF loses to MRF + YTZ... Hmmm... something is really off here.

[Ken Cheng]

I'm trying to add more chars to the chart and would need some opinion on where the "Ben generation" monks at Heavenly Dragon Temple stands.

Currently we have:
Xiao Feng at 80, JMZ at 77 (plan to move him up slightly), DYQ/DZM at 65 and MRF/YTZ at 60.

Adding the Ben generation monk would totally mess up the chart.
1. Kurong is a level higher than DZM, so let's say we slot him in at 70.
2. Any idea on the rough level of the other 4 Ben generation monk? Don't tell me they're individually stronger than MRF?

So basically, JMZ can fight to a draw with Kurong + DZM + 4 Ben Generation Monks (1v6).

But XF loses to MRF + YTZ... Hmmm... something is really off here.

You've got to factor in that Mo Yung F'uk combined with Yau Tan Tze is a synergism...more than the sum of its parts.

[WuxiaMaster]

You've got to factor in that Mo Yung F'uk combined with Yau Tan Tze is a synergism...more than the sum of its parts.

MRF and YTZ are the pre-incarnation YG and XLN?

Jokes aside though, I still find it weird that there are so many "1 time appearance, secondary importance" characters that are stronger than "South Murong".

Is MRF really that mediocre, or is it DGSD just have soooo MANY high-tier elites?

---

In HSDS, reaching Du Monk level (LV65) would basically let you 打遍天下无敌手, less the most powerful Greats. In fact, reaching LV65 in any other novels (including condor trilogy) is extremely powerful and an extraordinary achievement already.

At this LV, you can basically take out entire sects by yourself and have no fear against 99% of the wulin.

Let's look at the chars we have at ~LV65:
- LOCH Guo Jing/Zhou Botong (when stuck in cave)
- Zhang San/Li Si
- Du Monks
- Zuo Leng Chan/Chong Xu

These are all extremely powerful (武学宗师) figures in wulin, possessing either great levels skills or decades of cultivation.
---

AND YET: In DGSD, every random Xuan-generation, Ben-generation monk is a LV65?

I find that really hard to believe.

Did we mess up the rankings somewhere, or is DGSD really FLOODED WITH LOCH Guojings and Du Monks?

[Ken Cheng]

MRF and YTZ are the pre-incarnation YG and XLN?

Minus all the sickly romance stuff...yeah, pretty much.

Jokes aside though, I still find it weird that there are so many "1 time appearance, secondary importance" characters that are stronger than "South Murong".

Well, don't forget: "South Mo Yung" is quite overrated in regards to Mo Yung F'uk personally.

Is MRF really that mediocre, or is it DGSD just have soooo MANY high-tier elites?---

Mo Yung F'uk isn't really mediocre compared to wulin in general, but he did live in a time of wulin history populated by an inordinate number of truly extraordinary pugilists.

In HSDS, reaching Du Monk level (LV65) would basically let you 打遍天下无敌手, less the most powerful Greats. In fact, reaching LV65 in any other novels (including condor trilogy) is extremely powerful and an extraordinary achievement already.

At this LV, you can basically take out entire sects by yourself and have no fear against 99% of the wulin.

Let's look at the chars we have at ~LV65:
- LOCH Guo Jing/Zhou Botong (when stuck in cave)
- Zhang San/Li Si
- Du Monks
- Zuo Leng Chan/Chong Xu

These are all extremely powerful (武学宗师) figures in wulin, possessing either great levels skills or decades of cultivation.
---

AND YET: In DGSD, every random Xuan-generation, Ben-generation monk is a LV65?

I find that really hard to believe.

It's not really so hard to believe. I've long thought so. Just how many Yeun-generation and Boon-generation monks did we see in DGSD? About a half dozen of each? They might not all be created equal: the strongest ones were perhaps Level 65 fighters and the weaker ones, perhaps considerably lower than that (just as not all seven Cheun Jen Disciples, Mo Dong Heroes, and Gong Nam Freaks were equal). In an era that tops out with the Janitor Monk and Siu Yiu Sect Elders (and Hui Juk when he inherits their powers and skills), it isn't at all surprising that there could be around a dozen fighters at the level of Gwok Jing from the end of LOCH. I see it as further support for the popular (but not infallible) Deterioration Theory.

Did we mess up the rankings somewhere, or is DGSD really FLOODED WITH LOCH Guojings and Du Monks?

Well, a dozen doesn't a flood make, especially considering the era and the competition.

[tape]

In HSDS there are several/tens of Kong monks that are unnamed, and there was definitely a sentence along the lines of their martial arts not being below the divine reverend (can't ever remember that one's name) that hosted the Lion Slaying Assembly.

Shaolin in any given era can probably be assumed to have a dozen or more unnamed fighters that are on that nebulous 25-30% of the era's Great.

[pannonian]

CancerLuna: That's an extremely long post!

There's toooo many things so I'm gonna selectively give my opinion on some points:



1. I don't see how it leads to that conclusion. (you would obviously be better when you fight a similar opponent)
2. LHC 'countered' DFBB by using a "double destruction" (两败俱伤) move, hence forcing DFBB to defend. It was his last ditch desperation move to avoid seriously injured/blinded because he could not really counter the attack. (consider this coming from someone who practice DG9J, pinnacle of all sword arts in Jinyong canon)
3. I think DFBB outright dominate them. How could you see it as otherwise? After 1 hit KO-ing Tong Bai Xiong, the rest went into ultra defensive stance. The only reason he didn't outright massacre any of them was because the 3 of them (some of the highest tier guys in SPW) were helping each other out and keeping him busy.

Xiao Longnu has a couple of instances of this. She and Yang Guo, with the comprehension coming from Yang Guo, used the double destruction principle as part of Lovers' Swordplay. Which makes one wonder if Yang Guo, in addition to the Heavy Sword, could understand this intrinsic principle of Dugu 9 Jian, or whether that is irrelevant when one is the level that he's at (one of the comments, after all, about the pointlessness of Lovers' Swordplay in the hands of Lin Chaoying and Wang Chongyang).

The second part relates to point 3. Nimoxing, Xiaoxiang Zi and Yin Kexi similarly went fully defensive against Xiao Longnu at Chongyang Palace. While they were altogether more comfortable against XLN in this mode (until she broke them with her rain of swords) than the experts were against Dongfang Bubai, one wonders if this is the natural tactic when one is up against vastly superior speed.

[WuxiaMaster]

I've added some "once in a while requested" characters to the Legendary category (it seems a bit empty ). These are extremely speculative, very distant background characters that do not appear directly in the Novels. They are added purely for fun and strictly speaking should not be considered in this chart.
- Damo Founder
- Founder of Xiaoyao Sect
- Creator of Kuihua Baodian
- Murong Longcheng (Creator of Dou Zhuan Xin Yi)

Balance Changes:
- Move JMZ to LV77
- Add LV 72: Ouyang Feng (LO) - At 2nd Mt Hua after he becomes crazy.
- Add LV 70: Reverend Kurong (TL)

Add Lian Cheng Jue (Deadly Secret) characters:
(Frankly speaking, I read the story long time ago and don't really remember in detail. A lot of these are gotten from comments in this thread and wikipedias.)

在金庸武侠体系中，论内功层级，《神照经》当与玄宗《先天功》，《九阴真经》、《九阳神功》、逍遥派《北冥 神功》、明教《乾坤大挪移》、禅宗《易筋经》、密宗《龙象般若功》等并论，应属绝世武功之列。

- Add LV 82: Ding Dian (LJJ)
- Add LV 70: Di Yun (LJJ)

Also further elaborate Guo Jing/Huang Rong during various points of their journey (influenced by recent LOCH2017 )

LV 22: Guo Jing, Huang Rong (LO) - When they first met each other
LV 34: Guo Jing (LO) - After Hong Qi Gong taught him 15 Dragon Palms.
LV 40: Guo Jing (LO) - Right after learning full set of 18 Dragon Palms
LV 46: Guo Jing - After learning from Zhou Botong at Peach Blossom Island.

I think Guo Jing "martial arts progression" is my favourite out of all Jinyong Novels. He's the only guy that doesn't suddenly get boosted 30 levels "overnight". Every event and encounter boosts his skills little by little.

[ChanceEncounter]

Add Lian Cheng Jue (Deadly Secret) characters:
(Frankly speaking, I read the story long time ago and don't really remember in detail. A lot of these are gotten from comments in this thread and wikipedias.)

在金庸武侠体系中，论内功层级，《神照经》当与玄宗《先天功》，《九阴真经》、《九阳神功》、逍遥派《北冥 神功》、明教《乾坤大挪移》、禅宗《易筋经》、密宗《龙象般若功》等并论，应属绝世武功之列。

- Add LV 82: Ding Dian (LJJ)
- Add LV 70: Di Yun (LJJ)

You have the names reversed. DY is the protagonist that ultimately surpassed DD.

Do we have any actual feats or narrative comparisons that would put them at this level? Saying that SZJ is a top level internal art does not really say anything, since a lot of practitioners of said top tier internal arts are not at 80+.

As a protagonist, though, DY would have been on screen long enough for us to see some feats that would indicate his ability. Are there any particular ones that would justify placing him at well above great level?

[_Kenny_]

I think Guo Jing "martial arts progression" is my favourite out of all Jinyong Novels. He's the only guy that doesn't suddenly get boosted 30 levels "overnight". Every event and encounter boosts his skills little by little.

Speaking of martial arts progression, can you also do one for ZWJ at different stages? Since GJ and YG both have listings of their different level rankings on the chart, ZWJ should have one also as the 3rd protagonist of the Condors Trilogy.

For example you can have a level ranking for ZWJ before and after he leaves that secluded valley where he practiced the 9 Yang Manual for 5 years. Another one after he learns QKDNY, then Tai Chi swordplay, etc.

[WuxiaMaster]

For ZWJ, my guess would be:
LV60: Leave scheduled valley (mastered 9Yang)
LV68: After learning Qiankun Da Nuo Yi
LV75: After learning Taiji Sword/Fist
LV77: End Novel

---------------------------------

In addition, I'm going to add in a special group for "formations/synergies", since these are almost always brought up and compared against:

Xiao Long Nu (LV45) + Yang Guo (LV42) = LV75 [玉女素心剑法 Jade Maiden Swordplay]
7 LOCH Quanzhen Disciples (LV35-41) = LV70 [天罡北斗阵 Big Dipper Formation]
Murong Fu (LV60) + You Tan Zhi (LV60) = LV82 [Extreme Synergy]
3 Du Monks (LV62 – LV65) = LV80 [金刚伏魔圈: Telepathic and Buddhism Power]

And maybe...

7 Wudang Heroes (LV38-LV46) = LV90 [真武七截阵] - Speculation. 64*LV40?! Maybe it's enough to take down Xu Zhu?


Which one gives the greatest boost?

[Ken Cheng]

WuxiaMaster, I do believe you have the Leader of the Divine Dragon Cult from DUKE OF MT. DEER listed twice at Level 40...first under the title of "Lord Hong," and then again under his full name of "Hong An Tong."

[EdenResident]

For ZWJ, my guess would be:
LV60: Leave scheduled valley (mastered 9Yang)
LV68: After learning Qiankun Da Nuo Yi
LV75: After learning Taiji Sword/Fist
LV77: End Novel

---------------------------------

In addition, I'm going to add in a special group for "formations/synergies", since these are almost always brought up and compared against:

Xiao Long Nu (LV45) + Yang Guo (LV42) = LV75 [玉女素心剑法 Jade Maiden Swordplay]
7 LOCH Quanzhen Disciples (LV35-41) = LV70 [天罡北斗阵 Big Dipper Formation]
Murong Fu (LV60) + You Tan Zhi (LV60) = LV82 [Extreme Synergy]
3 Du Monks (LV62 – LV65) = LV80 [金刚伏魔圈: Telepathic and Buddhism Power]

And maybe...

7 Wudang Heroes (LV38-LV46) = LV90 [真武七截阵] - Speculation. 64*LV40?! Maybe it's enough to take down Xu Zhu?


Which one gives the greatest boost?

Ranking the formations would be cool.

Murong Fu (LV60) + You Tan Zhi (LV60) = LV82 [Extreme Synergy]
3 Du Monks (LV62 – LV65) = LV80 [金刚伏魔圈: Telepathic and Buddhism Power]

This makes no sense, though, either in math or in logic.The 3 Du monks spent their lifetime practicing the formation to almost perfection. I mean Telepathy or 心意相通 is THE pinnacle of all formations. Formations have an inherent limitation in that the co-fighters cannot move like one body. 心意相通 removes that limitation. 心意相通 can only be achieved by those with the strongest bonds, like twins. In all of Jin Yong's cannon, only Yang Guo+Xiao Long Nu and the 3 Du monks were able to accomplish this feat. A 30+ level Yang Guo + 40 Xiao Long Nu can combine to fight a near-Great to almost a draw. Likewise, the 3 Du monks in that formation should be at least 80.

MRF + YTZ, on the other hand, has none of the characteristics of a good formation. Their arts are not designed to work like a formation. Their personalities are not compatible. They don't share any bonds strong enough to make them sacrifice themselves if the other gets in trouble, which is a must in all top-notch formations. The only "synergy" you get from this "formation" is that YTZ has awesome internals and MRF can funnel the opponent's attacks to YTZ with his DZXY. That's it! This formation is at best a 70 level. Do not overrate it because it beat Xiao Feng.

[_Kenny_]

May I propose a new character be added to the rankings? How about Mute Granny (Yi Lin's mother) from XAJH? At 1 point in the story, she more than held her own against the Taogu 6 Immortals, maybe level 40?

[WuxiaMaster]

I'll take note of the above.

We're actually missing a lot of characters, particularly those from HSDS. (The 4 divine monks, kong dong 5 elders, hua shan elders and their formations with kunlun, etc...) Their levels are also more 'generic' (at "5 levels interval" apart)

Going forward I hope to make the 'minor differences' more pronounced.

For example:
I'm thinking of either moving Tian Shan Tong Lao slightly higher, or Li Qiu Shui slightly lower. Reason being LQS is not confident of beating TSTL at max age and has to strike during her "return to youth cycle". This kind of prove that TSTL at her full power is stronger than LQS.

Also will be good if anyone can comment on the rankings among "Group", particularly for cases where the strongest and weakest are quite far apart (e.g. internally within wudang 7 heroes, quanzhen 7 priests, yideng 4 disciples, etc...)

[ChanceEncounter]

You still have Ding Dian and Di Yun swapped.

I still think the LCJ fighters are ranked a bit too high. I can't recall any specific feats of theirs that would warrant such a high ranking. There were very few notable LDAs in the novel, and if we subscribe to the deterioration theory, their story takes place quite late in the timeline.

[PJ]

I still think the LCJ fighters are ranked a bit too high.

That's quite an understatement.

[CancerLuna]

1. I don't see how it leads to that conclusion. (you would obviously be better when you fight a similar opponent)
2. LHC 'countered' DFBB by using a "double destruction" (两败俱伤) move, hence forcing DFBB to defend. It was his last ditch desperation move to avoid seriously injured/blinded because he could not really counter the attack. (consider this coming from someone who practice DG9J, pinnacle of all sword arts in Jinyong canon)
3. I think DFBB outright dominate them. How could you see it as otherwise? After 1 hit KO-ing Tong Bai Xiong, the rest went into ultra defensive stance. The only reason he didn't outright massacre any of them was because the 3 of them (some of the highest tier guys in SPW) were helping each other out and keeping him busy.

1. I am just saying that LHC, if he faced DFBB again, would perform substantially better. The DFBB 1v3 feat and his dominance of them had a lot to do with the 'strangeness' of his speed. 'Strangeness', here I'd use in the 'his speed was way out what they're used to' sense.

Versus, imagining other matchups, where no matter how many times they fight, the relative performance levels of each party will be similar.

"令狐沖大驚之下，知道今日遇到了生平從所未見的強敵，只要一給對方有施展手腳的余暇，自己立時性命不保"
"LHC knows if he let DFBB get even a brief moment of allowance, he would be dead instantly (立時).

Despite that, all 4 of them (+Shangguan Yun) quickly sustain injuries and in return they could not even touch DFBB. 1v1, any of them would be dead in seconds.

I think that's an interesting quote, because to me that IS a reason DFBB isn't `that` much better than them. He's stronger than them, sure. But if he was much much much stronger, there's no chance they'd even be able to not give DFBB allowance.

That might be a little hard to understand so I'll just give some levels of dominance I'd expect.

1 - 1HITKO / Death, Crowd Control type (able to control your opponents movements to an extreme)

ZSF (on two occasions), will post short snippets of that below.
Sweeper against MRB/XYS
YG against mongols with HIS

2 - <10 stance
YDL vs ZZR

3 - 10 - 100 stances
IMO DFBB is in this category at least against LHC. This would be a fine line between 2 and 3.

4 - 200 stances
YG vs QQR
YG vs GWM

4. The chart does acknowledge that LHC is not trained in the Palm Breaking Stance. I don't think that relates to this battle.

My point here is just that LHC is still a scrub. Yes his sword skills at a technical level is one of the best, but I'd hesitate to include him in the group of Elites.

5. The novel does mention (from DFBB words) that KHBD is a form of "internal skill" (内功), although I'm not sure if Bixie Jianfa contains that portion.

I do believe it's an internal skill also but I'm not sure if it heavily improves ones internal. ALA 9Yang.
Nevertheless, I do believe KHBD's biggest boost will probably be the first step and any improvements after is probably very little.

I actually am of the opinion that XF internal strength seems quite mediocore (esp DY having stronger internal after sucking a low-level "scrubs"), and always wanted to rate him a little lower. However, since the beginning of time this forum always think XF > GJ/YG.

XF in my mind is ~= GJ/YG. It's hard to say about his internal for sure though.

DGQB is indeed several levels above DFBB from the chart.

My opinion there is that the distance between the Greats is the same as the distance between DGQB and DFBB.


Two ZSF feats that are extremely impressive.

It was at this time when a young child's voice cried from outside the long window of the hall, “Papa! Papa!” These two cries seemed to be smothered, the mouth of this speaker was obviously being covered by someone else. With a sway of his body, Zhang SanFeng had already arrived outside the long window. All that was seen was a man dressed in the attire of a Mongolian war general, in his arms was a eight or nine year old boy. That boy's mouth was covered, but he was struggling to break freak.

Zhang SanFeng's beloved disciple has just died a terrible death, and it was as if somebody has driven a knife into his heart. But due to his cultivation of nearly one hundred years, his thoughts still remained clear. He shouted in a low voice, “Get inside!” That man gave a tap with his left leg, and was just about to leap up onto the rooftops with the kid in his arms. But his shoulders immediately slumped while his whole body seemed to be suddenly held down by an incredible weight and he found that he couldn't even lift his two feet from the ground. What had happened was Zhang SanFeng had soundlessly approached the man and placed his left hand lightly on his shoulders. That man was incredibly petrified, for he knew that all Zhang SanFeng needed to do was expel some internal energy, and even if he doesn't die right away, he most definitely will be severely injured. Therefore, he could only follow his orders and enter into the reception hall.

^ This one is extremely impressive on multiple fronts (speed, internal, 1hitko potential, etc).

This happened extremely suddenly. Though Zhang Sanfeng's martial arts were profound and amazing,he never expected that a top Shaolin expert who had come from far to bring news would attack him. At this moment, he even thought that Kong Xiang had lost his mind momentarily due to grief, and imagined he was an enemy. The next moment he realized that this could not be. The palm used to hit him was Shaolin's “Diamond Prajna Palm”. Kong Xiang had attacked with full force, using all his internal energy. His face was pale but there was a hint of a fierce smile.

Zhang Wuji, Yu Daiyan and Ming Yue were so shock they were rooted on the spot. Yu Daiyan was paralysed, so he could not help his Master. Zhang Wuji was young and inexperienced, he did not realize that Kong Xiang had struck a lethal blow. The two of them could only let out an exclaimation. Only to see Zhang Sanfeng stretch out his left palm and tapped Kong Xiang lightly on the head. Though this tap was soft and gentle, it was as hard as iron. Kong Xiang's skull was smashed and he dropped dead to the ground without uttering a sound. Yu Daiyan said urgently: "Master, you...” As he said this, he stopped. He saw Zhang Sanfeng sit down with his eyes closed. White mist was coming out of his head. Suddenly he opened his mouth and coughed out fresh blood.

Not much to say here other than that I do not believe DFBB would be able to beat ZSF, and by extension the other Greats.

The second part relates to point 3. Nimoxing, Xiaoxiang Zi and Yin Kexi similarly went fully defensive against Xiao Longnu at Chongyang Palace. While they were altogether more comfortable against XLN in this mode (until she broke them with her rain of swords) than the experts were against Dongfang Bubai, one wonders if this is the natural tactic when one is up against vastly superior speed.

I'd at least like to highlight this point.

[WuxiaMaster]

You still have Ding Dian and Di Yun swapped.

I still think the LCJ fighters are ranked a bit too high. I can't recall any specific feats of theirs that would warrant such a high ranking. There were very few notable LDAs in the novel, and if we subscribe to the deterioration theory, their story takes place quite late in the timeline.

Do you want to propose some levels for them? I think LCJ took place near Qing Dynasty, so it might indeed be too high.

[WuxiaMaster]

My opinion there is that the distance between the Greats is the same as the distance between DGQB and DFBB.

Two ZSF feats that are extremely impressive.

1. The distance between DGQB and DFBB / DFBB and Greats are not the same.

2. I don't deny ZSF feats are extremely impressive, but he is also 17 levels above XM Elder [hence the feat]. Also it's 1v1 instead of 1v3.

3. Also, do you think RWX is weaker than XM Elder?

On a side note, I think XM Elders might be rated a bit too highly at 60, considering the Du Monks are at 62 to 65. What makes them so terrifying is their "Extreme-Yin Xuan Ming Palms", which can quickly take out anyone without "9 Yang" energy. In terms of martial arts wise they are probably at ~55.

[Dirt]

Dugu Qiubai said he mastered a sword without a sword. Where in all the books of Jin Yong has it been said or shown that DGQB could take out a Greats level fighter with a single tap of his sword?