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Thread: Do readers judge Yue Buqun too harshly?

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    Default Do readers judge Yue Buqun too harshly?

    It's strange how our morality works. While Yue Buqun is probably one of the most detestable characters, other characters have done worst things.

    Being a hypocrite and portraying a saintly image while secretly being evil to the core inherently annoys us I believe --but I'm not really sure if he is more evil than a lot of other characters that we've seen that we judge much less harshly. Cheng Kun in HSDS for example blatantly does the same thing among other heinous crimes, but he is much less hated imo.

    We hate him because the world thinks he's a good guy while we know he's not. It riles us up. But in the end, people like Murong Fu and Murong Bo who are willing to destroy whole nations and millions of civilian lives in order to achieve their goal are much more destructive.

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    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    It's because Cheng Kun had more ability than Yue Buqun which was small fry. Yue Buqun aspired to be a major player, Cheng Kun was a major player and one of the main puppet masters of HSDS.

    Look at HYS, he crippled his students. But he's still widely admired, more so than say WCY who worked for the greater good more so than HYS and cared for and loved his students.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    It's strange how our morality works. While Yue Buqun is probably one of the most detestable characters, other characters have done worst things.

    Being a hypocrite and portraying a saintly image while secretly being evil to the core inherently annoys us I believe --but I'm not really sure if he is more evil than a lot of other characters that we've seen that we judge much less harshly. Cheng Kun in HSDS for example blatantly does the same thing among other heinous crimes, but he is much less hated imo.

    We hate him because the world thinks he's a good guy while we know he's not. It riles us up. But in the end, people like Murong Fu and Murong Bo who are willing to destroy whole nations and millions of civilian lives in order to achieve their goal are much more destructive.

    yes, but in the end Yue Bu Qun is disgusting and thats what make people hate him

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    We hate him because the world thinks he's a good guy while we know he's not.
    This is the reason I despite someone like Yue Buqun a lot. I consider him more dangerous than someone like MRF because he is better at creating false impression & messing with your mind.

    Cheng Kun arguably did more despicable things, but his devotion to Yang Dingtian's wife shows there's still some humanity left in him, while the same can't be said about Yue Buqun (to my knowledge).
    Last edited by PJ; 04-09-13 at 11:33 PM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    I despise YBQ but part of it is because I identify with LHC as the protagonist which makes YBQ's betrayal even more appalling.

    With that said, I certainly hate people like CK in HSDS as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    This is the reason I despite someone like Yue Buqun a lot. I consider him more dangerous than someone like MRF because he is better at creating false impression & messing with your mind.

    Cheng Kun arguably did more despicable things, but his devotion to Yang Dingtian's wife shows there's still some humanity left in him, while the same can't be said about Yue Buqun (to my knowledge).
    I don't really see a crazy devotion to her, and I certainly don't see it as a positive thing. It seemed to be a normal masculine and egotistical thing to do when your lover gets taken away from you (in those times). He continued fooling around with her and when she committed suicide he decided to take a petty vengeance against Yang Dingtian. That was completely for his own sake and doesn't really speak much for his humanity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I don't really see a crazy devotion to her, and I certainly don't see it as a positive thing. It seemed to be a normal masculine and egotistical thing to do when your lover gets taken away from you (in those times). He continued fooling around with her and when she committed suicide he decided to take a petty vengeance against Yang Dingtian. That was completely for his own sake and doesn't really speak much for his humanity.
    The point is Cheng Kun genuinely loved someone. The same cannot be said about Yue Buqun (again, to my knowledge).
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    somehow even though Murong family are cruel but i still see a spirit of warrior in them so they don't look too disgusting

    cheng kun have a little left in him

    while i see none in yue bu qun especially near the end of series

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    The point is Cheng Kun genuinely loved someone. The same cannot be said about Yue Buqun (again, to my knowledge).
    I'm not sure how Sing Kwun's having loved someone mitigates his evil, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    The point is Cheng Kun genuinely loved someone. The same cannot be said about Yue Buqun (again, to my knowledge).
    The discrepancy between our views I guess is whether Cheng Kun genuinely loved her in a way that makes him humane. I don't really know if he really loved her, or he was just responding to having a lover taking away from him and proceeding to exact petty revenge when things fell apart.

    Some say if you really love someone, you let them go. Others think you need to be a stalker. I think Cheng Kun's love isn't quite stalkerish since she liked him too, but I don't think it added anything redeeming to his character.

    It's human nature to lust for power too. So shouldn't Yue Buqun's ultimate lust for power make him more humane ?

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    I don't hate him at all. Every chapter with Yue Buqun is an interesting chapter.

    I like villains like him more than failed villains like Golden Wheel Monk who get embarrassed constantly

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackRaven View Post
    I don't hate him at all. Every chapter with Yue Buqun is an interesting chapter.

    I like villains like him more than failed villains like Golden Wheel Monk who get embarrassed constantly
    Villains aren't Jin Yong's strong suit (unlike Gu Long, who seemed to create excellent villains): for every Au Yeung Fung or Ngok But Kwun that Jin Yong gives you, he'll give you five losers like the Golden Wheel Monk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Villains aren't Jin Yong's strong suit (unlike Gu Long, who seemed to create excellent villains): for every Au Yeung Fung or Ngok But Kwun that Jin Yong gives you, he'll give you five losers like the Golden Wheel Monk.
    I dont think LOCH OYF was a very good villain. The hype of the Greats appearing certainly made me eager to see him, but despite his supposed intelligence and ruthlessness, he didnt create an aura of fear or "villainy" to me. LOCH 83 brought a lot of life inti the character in my opinion -- moreso than he had in the novel.

    It wasnt until ROCH that he became more full fleshed and retroactively made his LOCH counterpart better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    The discrepancy between our views I guess is whether Cheng Kun genuinely loved her in a way that makes him humane. I don't really know if he really loved her, or he was just responding to having a lover taking away from him and proceeding to exact petty revenge when things fell apart.

    Some say if you really love someone, you let them go. Others think you need to be a stalker. I think Cheng Kun's love isn't quite stalkerish since she liked him too, but I don't think it added anything redeeming to his character.

    It's human nature to lust for power too. So shouldn't Yue Buqun's ultimate lust for power make him more humane ?
    Even if it wasn't all genuine, it still showed more concern for another human being than we saw from Yue.

    You're correct that greed is human nature. But when I used the term "humanity", I meant having a soul.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Even if it wasn't all genuine, it still showed more concern for another human being than we saw from Yue.

    You're correct that greed is human nature. But when I used the term "humanity", I meant having a soul.
    It'd be interesting to know what kinds of evil things Yue Buqun did pre-novel to earn him such contempt from all the top dogs. Was it only his famous image as an upright guy which they knew to be false?

    It's entirely possible that they knew he wanted more fame/power for Huashan but pretended like he didn't care about that stuff and that's all there is to it. He had spies and and schemes judging by his interest in the Pi Xie manual, but that's not really unreasonable for an ambitious headmaster. By the time he actually DID something (besides harbor ill thoughts) it was already when his head disciple learned deadly sword arts from an unknown source, the whole Huashan having to run from the Fairies, and being humiliated by the 15 assassins amongst other things.

    If all he did was crave power for himself and stop at nothing to get it, then sure he has no redeeming qualities. But if he just wanted to preserve Huashan and propel it to one of the top Sects, I think that is a somewhat humane act since he is caring for an entity beyond himself.

    Lin Pingzi by mid/end novel does not care about a single person. All he cared about was revenge, but that in itself was enough to make him very human. Yue could be similar, except we don't get as much inner monologue about him and he is fueled by sect-glory rather than revenge.
    Last edited by tape; 04-12-13 at 06:27 PM.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    For me, if a bad guy had an unfortunate background (like Lin Pinzhi), it usually gains some sympathy. I don't know much about Yue Buqun other than that he is a "wei junzi". So that's all I have to judge him. There's probably more to him that I don't know (because I haven't read all of SPW).
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    I've not read the book, but, based on what I saw in SOD96, I couldn't hate Yue Buqun. I always remember the scene of him kneeling in front of his ancestors' tablet talking about his responsibility to revive the reputation/strength of Hua Shan. To him, he has a responsibility he need to fulfill with any means. Maybe it's the great acting of Wong Wei. But, I really can feel this character's burden. I think his reason is better reason than the pretty revenge of Chen Kun.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    With my limited knowledge of SOD, I do not hate him. tape has correctly identified that he is a "hypocrite" which may have made people to hate him more as compared to CK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    I've not read the book, but, based on what I saw in SOD96, I couldn't hate Yue Buqun. I always remember the scene of him kneeling in front of his ancestors' tablet talking about his responsibility to revive the reputation/strength of Hua Shan. To him, he has a responsibility he need to fulfill with any means. Maybe it's the great acting of Wong Wei.
    That actor portrayed a great YBQ. It's a good scene, and if it were in the novel ( can't remember ), it would have been another moment of smooth talking by YBQ.

    In the novel, I don't recall him sincerely wishing to enhance the strength and reputation of Hua Shan. Otherwise, during the merger of the Five Schools, he would not have used the argument: "Don't feel bad that the Taishan school will go extinct, the Hua Shan school no longer exists either. We are all part of the 5 Mountain School now".

    I wonder if Sword Branch disciples like Feng Buping and the other guys genuinely cared more about the Hua Shan school than YBQ did. Yue clearly cared more about his own personal power than his school, his wife, and he even killed his own disciple without batting an eye. It's a pity that Feng Qiyang didn't teach his DG9S to the surviving Sword Branch students, perhaps as a way to atone for his failure to show up years ago, causing so many deaths.

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    I believe the uplifting Huashan factor is in the novel as well. YBQ was told about PXJF from his master just like the QiCheng headmaster had heard from his master. YBQ just executed much better.

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