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Thread: Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

  1. #1241
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    Good point raised regarding WYZ - will add a remark "Only based on internal (disregarding disability)"

    For YCZ I am not that familiar - open to suggestions

  2. #1242
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    Even with only internal departement he is very strong so he should be at Lv 80 (internal only)..

  3. #1243
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    talk about wuyazi, if not crippled, he is even stronger than tianshan tonglao

  4. #1244
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    Quote Originally Posted by a_tumiwa View Post
    talk about wuyazi, if not crippled, he is even stronger than tianshan tonglao
    Wowww really did Yu think WYZ > TSTL/LQS since I alwayz thought that TSTL was the strongest among them due to her "seniority"😶😶😶😶

  5. #1245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Wowww really did Yu think WYZ > TSTL/LQS since I alwayz thought that TSTL was the strongest among them due to her "seniority"😶😶😶😶
    the rule of xiaoyao sect is that, the strongest will become the leader, su xinghe (disciple of wuyazi) also confirmed that wuyazi was the strongest. so even though TSTL joined first and older, but her martial arts is below wuyazi
    you can check the novel especially when su xinghe explained the xiaoyao sect to xuzhu

  6. #1246
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    I actually ranked them in terms of seniority before this - good to know that it was specifically mentioned WYZ is the strongest of the 3 elders.

  7. #1247
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    Level 90 (神功盖世,天下无敌)– The pinnacle of martial arts and perfection!

    LV 90: Xu Zhu (TL) – Held back by weak combat ability. Internal at LV100.
    LV 90: Shi Po Tian (XKX)

    LV 87: Tian Shan Tong Lao (TL) - She is stronger than Li Qiu Shui at full power.
    LV 86: Wu Ya Zi (TL)
    LV 85: Li Qiu Shui (TL)
    LV 85: Duan Yu (TL) – Assume functional Liu Mai Shen Jian. Held back by weak combat ability.
    LV 85: Dongfang Bu Bai (XA) – Trait: Demonic Speed

    LV 85: Huang Shang, Creator of Jiuyin (LO) – Speculation.

    LV 82: Di Yun (LCJ) – Assume 神照经 is on the same tier as 九阴/九阳 from its feats.


    Level 80 (绝世高手)- Only the strongest characters in all of Jinyong Novels reaches here.

    LV 80: Xiao Feng (TL) - Skillset/Internal at LV75. Trait: Fighting God.
    LV 80: Murong Bo (TL)
    LV 80: Xiao Yuan Shan (TL)

    LV 80: Duan Yu (TL) – At Shaolin battle. Assume functional Liu Mai Shen Jian. Held back by weak combat ability.

    LV 80: Yang Guo (RO) - Without Heavy Iron Sword. [Happy State: -1LV, Sorrow State: +1LV]

    LV 80: Guo Jing (RO) - Post 16 Years. Speculation.
    ....
    Well I wonder could people at XF/GJ level really defeat XZ/SPT or at least give them very decent fight since people like RWX (Lv 70) seem quite capable to force XF/GJ fought "seriously"..

  8. #1248
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    Back and ready for more

    Hoping to shake up the list...

    I may have responded to these points at some point in the past but I thought I'd add potentially fresh (or maybe just reworded opinions.

    When GLFW first appeared, he is also described as being on GJ LV. This prove to be super over-estimation as GJ took on GLFW + 3 Mongols Experts + 1000s of soldiers, and would have escaped unscathed if not for YG.
    I think this is OK and doesn't make GWM look too bad. Afterall GJ is easily the best 1vX'er (along with ZBT/ XLN) in the entire trilogy. He's probably at the very least 50-60% more effective 1vX than the next non L/R technique guy.
    You can look at XLN's own performance to see L/R technique greatly greatly improves the 1vX "attribute". Looking at a faulty 1vX and then attributing it to a 1v1, it's not neccessarily true GJ would have the same effectiveness. I think
    JY's original intention and description of GWM can and should still hold. It's not that I don't necessarily think GWM is a choker and relatively underperforming for his martial arts level but I think this list has a habit of deriving 1vX and then
    assigning an enormous power multiplier to the 1v1. We then get kinda weird lopsided power placements. Is DFBB really 3.* times better than LHC+RWX+XWT given his own performance against LHC when it was 1v1?

    In fact, looking at XLN's feat in her 1vX, she must be as strong as GJ then considering they did pretty much the same thing...

    Next...

    Some contradictions in the chart I'd like to point out.

    In summary, this chart should look at actual performance first. JY narrative is very inconsistent at times and should only be supporting evidence.
    LV 80: Wang Chong Yang (LO) – It is logically impossible for him to be at this LV at the time of his death. He is placed here because it is always the Author Intention for him to be 1 tier above the 4 Greats at all point of time.
    LV 72: Qiu Qian Ren / Ci En (RO) - Both Pre & Post 16 Years.

    So we have WCY, where you acknowledge it's logically impossible for him to be here but then use "author intention" to place him at 80. When we go to QQR (and GWM) though, it's now let's ignore every bit of author intention and put him at 72.
    I find this contradictory. In fact, I'd say author intention side, I'd wager there's more comments of JY indicating QQR's relative placement to the Greats than WCY +1 superiority to the Greats.

    Next up,

    LV 75: Guo Xiang (YT) – Speculation of highest level reached.
    LV 72: Yellow Dressed Girl, Lady Yang (YT) - Speculation.

    Almost seems biased hehe. If I were to make a case, both are really ambiguous with highest level attained (Lady Yang could actually be stronger than ZWJ..).
    At the very least YDL had 9Yin and GX was incomplete 9 Yang?

    On to JMZ,

    I don't think this was ever addressed but I don't see why JMZ is lower than the other 3 elites (by 3 levels too).

    LV 80: Xiao Feng (TL) - Skillset/Internal at LV75. Trait: Fighting God.
    LV 80: Murong Bo (TL)
    LV 80: Xiao Yuan Shan (TL)
    LV 77: Jiu Mo Zhi (TL)

    Again, I think consensus is XF can definitely beat anyone near him in the list (MRB/XYS/JMZ) but they are still around the same level.

    I think the main comparison is XF vs YTZ+MRF performance compared to JMZ vs 6 Dali Monks so I think JMZ definitely deserves 80 or 79 at the very least.

    Back to my favorite DFBB!

    For DFBB, we only need to answer 2 questions:
    1. Do you think RWX is at LOCH Great?
    2. If the answer to Q1 is yes, then how strong would one need to be, to be able gain a definite upper hand (and win) 1v3 against 3 LOCH Greats? (actually, I would go even further to say 'toy around with 3 LOCH Greats', but some might disagree so let's not even bring in that)
    I think this is flawed reasoning again because 1vX doesn't necessarily mean 1v1. We can see multiple examples in GJ/XLN that this is the case. Even in LOCH, a weaker GJ could hold off TWO Greats at once for a long time. Again, usually people like to assign ingloriousness to the Greats
    but that's ignoring the fact that L/R really is a huge boost to 1vX ability. In DFBB's case, his extreme speed allowed him to handle multiple opponents with ease but once we saw DFBB vs LHC only, he still wasn't able to subdue him quickly. In fact they exchanged several stances.

    Having said all that, from what we've seen of GJ (1v2 when he was 70% of LOCH Greats), I think he stands a good chance at soloing against 3 LOCH Greats. (A feat I don't neccessarily think the other Greats can do).

    Back to ROCH..

    LV 75: Yang Guo - Pre 16 years, using Heavy Iron Sword.
    LV 76: Guo Jing (RO) - Pre 16 Years.
    Putting on my "storytelling" glasses for a second, it doesn't make sense YG is weaker than GJ after he attained the HIS.

    Digressing back, he handily defeated people that were implied to be at the very least on the same martial arts level at GJ/Greats.

    My takeaways:

    GJ was implied to be slightly better than the Greats pre 16 (through encounters with OYF, etc).
    JY spent painstaking time highlighting how even QQR was with YD only to have YG pummel QQR fairly quickly. Implied author intention, YG is also superior to the Greats.

    Whoever at this point is better is debatable but I think it's more fair for both to be at the same level. e.g. 76/76

    Next up, in my opinion these improvement rates are a little flawed.

    First up, the Greats..

    LV 77: Zhou Botong (RO) - Pre & Post 16 Years.
    LV 75: East Heretic, Huang Yao Shi (RO) - Pre & Post 16 Years.
    LV 75: South Emperor, Yideng (RO) - Pre & Post 16 Years

    We think they literally did not improve at all over 16 years, living breathing martial arts geniuses. Lets say I ignore ZBT's comment about him being stronger than ever and lets say I buy their old age counteracted their martial arts improvement... The only one I buy is YD and that's because he became a monk.

    LV 77: Zhou Botong (RO) - Pre & Post 16 Years.
    LV 76: Guo Jing (RO) - Pre 16 Years.

    Do we believe ZBT is better than GJ Pre 16 years?

    LV 76: Guo Jing (RO) - Pre 16 Years.
    LV 80: Guo Jing (RO) - Post 16 Years. Speculation.

    How do we get here with GJ other than equalizing him with YG? GJ was busy defending XY for years and years. I don't think he had time to significantly improve his own martial arts a significant level.
    That also would imply that GJ's growth curve (lets assume he practiced during those years even though he was busy with XY...) is the same as YG's! Someone who spent 10-16 years exclusively practicing martial arts!

    Now GJ is obviously a beast but YG should have a faster growth curve either way. 100% attention + more "talent" vs <100% + less talent is clear in my opinion.
    Poor YG, getting outshined by his uncle in his own novel.

    Then I go to ZWJ,

    LV 74: Zhang Wu Ji (YT) – After mastering Taiji Sword & Fist at Wudang.
    LV 77: Zhang Wu Ji (YT)

    I can't imagine ZWJ jumping up three whole levels in the course of HSDS. That's amazing given the older greats obsessed with martial arts for 16 whole years couldn't manage to even move 1 level.
    I don't find ZWJ EOS substantionally better than the ZWJ after Taichi.

    Using the example in the list:

    2, 3 LV Difference – There are concrete or acknowledged evidence that A is stronger than B, but the difference is still extremely narrow. A would probably win, but only after an extremely long and arduous battle (possibly >1000+ exchange). It would take a lot out of A (exhausting all his energy/stamina) to win this battle.

    Example: ZBT vs Greats
    Is there anything in HSDS that would lead us to believe the ZWJ EOS is [delta between ZBT and Greats] better than ZWJ after Taichi?

    My suggestion, only a 1 level difference here.

    also in the other thread, the RocH subject make me wonder who is strongest to weakest , if "Draw" result is not allowed, how do you ranking them?

    the participants are Yang Guo, ZBT, Yi Deng, HYS, OYF, WCY, GWM, XLN, GJ, HQG, QQR, YG(his), Jue Yuan
    YG (HIS) - Should be reasonably stronger than any Great including GJ, in my opinion.
    YG ~ GJ - Since GJ's level is hard to gauge, it's safer to put them at parity.
    GWM - He should be next, easily over the other Greats, IMO.
    ZBT - Probably the same martial arts level as GWM but he has the same "old age" handicap as the other Greats. I'd put him below GWM in a straight up life or death fight.
    HYS
    OYF, HQG, Yideng -
    QQR
    WCY - Hard to place... If based on author intention, could be YG-GJ level, based on logic, probably below all the other Greats..
    Jue Yuan
    XLN

    I hope I may convince some readers of these points.

    "Debates are for onlookers not participants, both who've usually dug in their heels."

    P.S. Just realized my last post in this topic was almost an entire year ago. Time flies! That's made me realize I've been visiting this forum every so often for over ten years now. That's amazing really... I can probably count on one hand the number of sites I use from so long ago at this point. Cheers fellow old timers reading this.

  9. #1249
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    Well being able to beat JLFW/QQR not mean pre 16 years HIS YG also could beat Greats/GJ which I think they are still a bit better than YG at that time since Greats wasn't Greats if they "easily" to defeat..

  10. #1250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Well being able to beat JLFW/QQR...
    These two are always problematic. They're *supposed* to be at or near Greats-class, and they both have a handful of spectacular performances, but...there's just something lacking about them.

  11. #1251
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    Glad to see some new stuff! I'll present my viewpoint and also re-highlight the main methodology (it's described in the 2nd post) of this chart:


    The chart PRIMARILY rates characters on 1 versus 1 on their ACTUAL, ON-SCREEN COMBAT performance (whenever possible). Everything else is supporting/secondary evidence. If I have to give a weightage, it'll be more ~70% of actual performance + ~30% what the author says (aka author intention).


    When something is tagged as "Author Intention", it means a separate rating out of the chart standard framework that disregard actual performance and becomes a LV that is derived SOLELY based on the author view. (e.g. hence for WCY, there is 2 rating. 1 author intention and 1 based on the chart methodology).


    When something says "speculation", it is what it is - pure guesses.


    Now to address the major stuff I see:


    1. Looking at XLN's feat in her 1vX, she must be as strong as GJ then considering they did pretty much the same thing...


    Not the same, as XLN did 1vX vs the Mongol Mercs (LV50+ characters) first. Once GWM (LV70) stepped in they fought 1 vs 1 (pretty much even). GJ fought GWM + Mongol Mercs at the same time.


    2. I don't think this was ever addressed but I don't see why JMZ is lower than the other 3 elites (by 3 levels too).


    Is JMZ really on the LV of MRB/XF? Open to debate...


    3. Back to my favorite DFBB!


    I might actually be slightly convinced now... Haha. LV85 might be a bit too much for DFBB considering insane speed makes someone much better at 1vX situations. That said, I would still place him far above ROCH Greats, possibly in the LV80 to 82 region.


    4. GJ was implied to be slightly better than the Greats pre 16 (through encounters with OYF, etc). JY spent painstaking time highlighting how even QQR was with YD only to have YG pummel QQR fairly quickly. Implied author intention, YG is also superior to the Greats.


    Again. this comes down to how "close to great" we think QQR is. And based on actual performance, he is not THAT close.


    5. We think they literally did not improve at all over 16 years, living breathing martial arts geniuses.


    We addressed this before. The Great are all LV75 pre and post 16 years due their old age. Basically, we think whatever increased internal/skill were offset by their declining stamina.


    6. How do we get here with GJ other than equalizing him with YG?


    Something to do with 9 Yin giving ever increasing maximum internal cap.


    7. I can't imagine ZWJ jumping up three whole levels in the course of HSDS.


    The higher LV you go, the harder it is to progress. E.g. It is much tougher to go from LV70 to LV75 then from LV10 to LV40.


    After Wudang, ZWJ mastered the highest LV of Qiankun + Holy Tablets Skills + 3 very important combat experience against the Du Monks. Considering this, a 3 LV improvement between Wudang ZWJ and End-Novel ZWJ seems reasonable. That said, ZWJ level throughout the novel is open to debate.
    Last edited by WuxiaMaster; 08-31-19 at 10:22 PM.

  12. #1252
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    2. Lv 80 JMZ : if a "lousy" JLFW at Lv 77 so JMZ at least at Lv 78 since he have "better" technique/skill than JLFW and perhaps technique wise he is the best among DGSD Elites
    3. Lv 85 DFBB : I don't think Lv 85 for DFBB is "overrated" since XLN placed at Lv 70 though her actual martial art level might be lower for Lv 70-level fighter (around Lv 55-60 IMHO) so DFBB actual level perhaps at Lv 75 (around ROCH Greats) but with his/her "demonic speed" allowing him/her to "power up" to Lv 85 but still I never image he/she could beat any of GJ/XF😅😅😅😅 in 1 vs 1 duel
    3. Lv 76 Wuji : if GJ which fought JLFW + NMX + YKX + XXZ at Kubhilai Camp "only" at Lv 76 I don't think the silly Wuji putting at Lv 77 even in the end of HSDS..

  13. #1253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    These two are always problematic. They're *supposed* to be at or near Greats-class, and they both have a handful of spectacular performances, but...there's just something lacking about them.
    Haha..
    Honestly I never image pre 16 years HIS YG being able to beat ZBT/GJ though I'am one of biggest YG fans🤭🤭🤭🤭

  14. #1254
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    The chart PRIMARILY rates characters on 1 versus 1 on their ACTUAL, ON-SCREEN COMBAT performance (whenever possible). Everything else is supporting/secondary evidence. If I have to give a weightage, it'll be more ~70% of actual performance + ~30% what the author says (aka author intention).
    I think that's OK but I'd like to highlight author intention in terms of count and not just a singular "JY intended for this". e.g. If JY says something 10 times versus once, he probably really means it.

    Applying this to QQR, if he only mentioned it once that QQR was right below a Great but we see him struggle many times, then I think it's right to place him where he is.
    But if he's mentioned multiple times to be right below a Great and has a few points where there's "ingloriousness", I don't think it's right to put him where he is. IOW, we should also weigh author intention in terms of frequency.

    Using GJvs2Greats as an example. In practical terms, Gj pulling that feat off embarassed them in terms of their final standing. We give them the benefit of the doubt though because they're Greats!
    But imagine if QQR and GWM were the two that clashed with GJ. We'd be going about "they aren't truly at the Great level because...". Circularly, I'd say although GJ clashed with the two greats, we know they're still Great Level because JY said so, the same applies to QQR and GWM to me.

    When something says "speculation", it is what it is - pure guesses.
    Yeah, I'm just highlighting that YDL has just as much of a chance to be where GX is as GX is, given their character backgrounds, known martial arts, known feats, etc.


    1. Looking at XLN's feat in her 1vX, she must be as strong as GJ then considering they did pretty much the same thing...


    Not the same, as XLN did 1vX vs the Mongol Mercs (LV50+ characters) first. Once GWM (LV70) stepped in they fought 1 vs 1 (pretty much even). GJ fought GWM + Mongol Mercs at the same time.
    Thanks for the correction though the point still stands about the 1vX potentially providing lopsided evaluations.


    2. I don't think this was ever addressed but I don't see why JMZ is lower than the other 3 elites (by 3 levels too).


    Is JMZ really on the LV of MRB/XF? Open to debate...
    I've always felt that was forum consensus at least from reading various topics through the years.

    3. Back to my favorite DFBB!


    I might actually be slightly convinced now... Haha. LV85 might be a bit too much for DFBB considering insane speed makes someone much better at 1vX situations. That said, I would still place him far above ROCH Greats, possibly in the LV80 to 82 region.
    I agree that DFBB is stronger than the ROCH Greats (ZBT/HYS/YD) but I think there's a huge gap between GJ/YG and the older ROCH Greats too.

    GWM was handily beating YD.
    YG in his "happy state" would've beat GWM within 200-300 stances.
    YG in his "sad state" won in less than five stances. Lets say there was some fluke/luck involved, it's still a floor to ceiling of 200 stances to 5 stances as the amount of stances it would take YG/GWM to determine a winner.
    YG regretted not bringing his HIS when his sword broke. His thoughts wern't "damn GWM got so much stronger, even if I brought my HIS, I'd still lose", it was "man I was too arrogant to think I could own GWM again without the HIS".

    YG's floor (happy palms) to his ceiling (his) are all significantly stronger than GWM which displayed clear superiority over the older Greats. It can still make sense for DFBB to be around GJ/XF/YG level and still be superior to the older Greats.

    Using the chart of levels,

    10 LV Difference - At this point, A should be able to defeat B with relatively ease (likely within 100 exchange). There is almost no chance of B winning. However, A still need to exhaust considerable attention/energy/stamina to deal with B.

    15 LV Difference - Similar to a 10LV difference, but now A would be able to defeat B with even less effort and likely much quicker (within 50 exchange). There is no conceivable chance of B ever winning.
    YG, between Happy (200 stances), Sad (<200-5~stances) and HIS (should be better than Sad Palms which is <200-5~ stances) ranges from a 5 to 15 level difference to GWM who's at 77.. And this is against GWM who should be better than the older greats.

    Equalizing with GJ, that makes it very reasonable YG/GJ/XF ~= DFBB.

    ~

    Additional point about DFBB that I forgot to mention. DFBB's first showing, although he was definitely stronger than everyone present, he definitely had a "surprise" factor to his martial arts that may have boosted his one match effectiveness.
    LHC noted a few times if he hadn't seen DFBB fight, he'd have lost to LPZ (or was it YBQ.. I've forgotten by now). That indicates to me that the trio would've fared better a second time against DFBB (e.g. with prep).

    I think thinking about the "what would happen if they fought 10 more times scenario" would be illuminating.


    4. GJ was implied to be slightly better than the Greats pre 16 (through encounters with OYF, etc). JY spent painstaking time highlighting how even QQR was with YD only to have YG pummel QQR fairly quickly. Implied author intention, YG is also superior to the Greats.


    Again. this comes down to how "close to great" we think QQR is. And based on actual performance, he is not THAT close.
    I think QQR and GWM are definitely Great Level but their combat skills are not as good as their martial arts skills which puts them at the same level as other Greats but would cause a definitive loss one on one.
    Using some lingo from other 1v1 debates.

    I think QQR and GWM in terms of the Great spectrum are "low-diff" fights for YG, whereas other Greats may be "medium-diff" or in the case of GJ, may be "high-diff".

    Some other thoughts,

    1. Narrative right before YGvsQQR, about how QQR was just right below YD, etc. Leads into author intention, JY intends to use QQR as a punching bag to prop YG up.

    2. YG after seeing all types of martial arts, from 18DP to Dog Beating Stick to Toad Stance to 9YIN, etc. All types of Great level martial arts. It was only the HIS martial arts that brought him in awe of Dugu.
    Because of this, I can't see him leaving his training still being weaker after learning the Great++ art from Dugu.


    5. We think they literally did not improve at all over 16 years, living breathing martial arts geniuses.


    We addressed this before. The Great are all LV75 pre and post 16 years due their old age. Basically, we think whatever increased internal/skill were offset by their declining stamina.
    I totally agree there are tradeoffs between gaining martial arts level and losing stamina due to age. If I were to reframe the question though, do you think ZBT thinks he can beat his pre 16 year old self? I think he thinks so (well he mentioned it basically).

    I think the increase in martial arts level ZBT/etc gained is enough for ZBT to win a fight against his younger (still old) self before stamina becomes an issue which means the former should at least be 1-2 levels higher.

    I think stamina only becomes a true issue when the people they're fighting have the same martial arts level but zero fatigue due to age (GWM, GJ, YG).

    6. How do we get here with GJ other than equalizing him with YG?


    Something to do with 9 Yin giving ever increasing maximum internal cap.
    Was it 9Yin or Quanzhen? Anyways I think ZBT was also said to have passive improvements in Internal Energy.
    Either way, if we try to do a straight 1:1 compare contrast with YG's training regiment (which we do know about), we can see his years of training were tough/intense and he himself mentioned improvement at his stage was extremely hard.
    I don't necessarily buy GJ that improved that much passively. I don't have much other commentary here, at the end of the day I do believe GJ should be around YG's level.


    7. I can't imagine ZWJ jumping up three whole levels in the course of HSDS.


    The higher LV you go, the harder it is to progress. E.g. It is much tougher to go from LV70 to LV75 then from LV10 to LV40.


    After Wudang, ZWJ mastered the highest LV of Qiankun + Holy Tablets Skills + 3 very important combat experience against the Du Monks. Considering this, a 3 LV improvement between Wudang ZWJ and End-Novel ZWJ seems reasonable. That said, ZWJ level throughout the novel is open to debate.
    I agree about "higher level, harder it is to progress", which is why I mention it's strange some of the stuff ZWJ mastered after Wudang propelling him that much.

    About what ZWJ mastered after Wudang, those martial arts QK/Holy Fire Tablet seem to be inferior to his central plain arts. My opinion is it gives him more breadth but not anymore depth.
    e.g. ZWJ with 9Yang+TaichiSword+TaichiFist ~= ZWJ with 9Yang+TaichiSword+TaichiFist+QK+TabletSkills.

    IOW#2, ZWJ would still be at the Great Level with 9Yang+TaichiFist/Sword (Great Internal/External) but I'd hesistate to call him truly Great if it was 9Yang/QK/Tablet.

    IOW#3 Imagine if GJ learned sad palms from YG at end of ROCH. I don't really think we can say GJ got stronger as he basically learned something laterally.

    Or XZ, I don't think him learning 18DP changed his overall combat ability at the end.

    The combat experience against the Du Monks are valuable, I agree but those matches, he went from loss,loss,tie (IIRC). If we just try to think of that in terms of level differences, that's probably a 1 level difference in terms of progression.

  15. #1255
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    The combat experience against the Du Monks are valuable, I agree but those matches, he went from loss,loss,tie (IIRC). If we just try to think of that in terms of level differences, that's probably a 1 level difference in terms of progression.
    ....
    Agree..
    We shouldn't consider it a "drastically progression"

  16. #1256
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    1. I'd say although GJ clashed with the two greats, we know they're still Great Level because JY said so, the same applies to QQR and GWM to me.

    QQR and GWM underperformed what is expected of a Great multiple times, that even JY "multiple mention" can't overwrite the on-screen fact.

    E.g. Mid-LOCH GJ being able to fight 100+ exchange with QQR, GWM thinking LMC is a worthy opponent, GWM being held back by Nimoxing, etc... too many to list.

    Also, not sure if you're referring to Mt. Hua battle, but it's pretty obvious the Greats 'went easy' on GJ (at the start).

    2. I'm just highlighting that YDL has just as much of a chance to be where GX is as GX is, given their character backgrounds, known martial arts, known feats, etc.

    True - nothing wrong if we speculate her to be same as GX.

    3. On YG vs GWM

    I don't think YG (without HIS. Post 16 YG with HIS is not rated) is THAT far ahead of GWM.

    Once again it come down to GWM being a 'problematic' character. Call it underperformance, phobia vs YG, lack of confidence... juding from GWM vs YD and YG vs ZBT, GWM should have fare much better/longer against YG.

    On top of this, there is definitely a surprise factor here (GWM not expecting the sudden counter attack) - so maybe don't read too much into the lv diff = number of exhange here.

    4. DFBB's first showing, although he was definitely stronger than everyone present, he definitely had a "surprise" factor to his martial arts that may have boosted his one match effectiveness.

    True, which is why YBQ was able to take out ZLC despite being slightly weaker. A 'surprise attack' can certainly lead to a slightly weaker character winning against a stronger one (particulary an overconfident one).

    5. I don't necessarily buy GJ that improved that much passively. I don't have much other commentary here, at the end of the day I do believe GJ should be around YG's level.

    I just want to highlight that GJ LV80 is a "speculation". Primarily to appease YG vs GJ threads

    6. The combat experience against the Du Monks are valuable, I agree but those matches, he went from loss,loss,tie (IIRC). If we just try to think of that in terms of level differences, that's probably a 1 level difference in terms of progression.

    I think the breadth of martial arts and combat exp definitely helps a lot. For e.g. would you rate end-novel XZ the same (or 1 LV diff) with the XZ post TSTL death? They have the exact same skillset/internal.

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    I think the breadth of martial arts and combat exp definitely helps a lot. For e.g. would you rate end-novel XZ the same (or 1 LV diff) with the XZ post TSTL death? They have the exact same skillset/internal.
    ....
    During that time XZ was almost fully mastered Xiaoyao Pai martial art then Wuji from Wudang fight till Shaolin fight (end HSDS) though also "mastered" some new stuff but his combat prowess and battle experience is still same even he "forgot" he have Dragon Sabre on his back when he fought Xuan Ming Elders near Shaolin (when they chase ZZR)..

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    1. I'd say although GJ clashed with the two greats, we know they're still Great Level because JY said so, the same applies to QQR and GWM to me.

    QQR and GWM underperformed what is expected of a Great multiple times, that even JY "multiple mention" can't overwrite the on-screen fact.

    E.g. Mid-LOCH GJ being able to fight 100+ exchange with QQR, GWM thinking LMC is a worthy opponent, GWM being held back by Nimoxing, etc... too many to list.

    Also, not sure if you're referring to Mt. Hua battle, but it's pretty obvious the Greats 'went easy' on GJ (at the start).
    True, although I think there may be circumstantial reasons for each of those, it just flows back to how much weight we give per comment about their skill level vs whatever feat/defeat we see them have.

    2. I'm just highlighting that YDL has just as much of a chance to be where GX is as GX is, given their character backgrounds, known martial arts, known feats, etc.

    True - nothing wrong if we speculate her to be same as GX.
    Cheers.

    3. On YG vs GWM

    I don't think YG (without HIS. Post 16 YG with HIS is not rated) is THAT far ahead of GWM.

    Once again it come down to GWM being a 'problematic' character. Call it underperformance, phobia vs YG, lack of confidence... juding from GWM vs YD and YG vs ZBT, GWM should have fare much better/longer against YG.
    I actually think YG is far ahead of GWM. GWM, pre 16 I can somewhat agree but the Post 16 Year GWM excuded competence.
    GWM improved enough in those 16 years that he came back to fight with FULL confidence he'd win against YG (the same one that embarassed him 16 years prior). He mastered a new level in his MA, "doubled" his internal, fought competently against multiple greats, etc.

    Take away GJ and YG, and he is the strongest Great. Their fight, played out normally, in my opinion, and YG still showed clear superiority.

    juding from GWM vs YD and YG vs ZBT, GWM should have fare much better/longer against YG.
    IIRC, GWM vs YD had extenuating circumstances, I think a clean 1v1 GWM/YD would be much more in favor of GWM (even though he was also winning in the novel fight).

    I think looking at YG vs ZBT or YG vs HYS as an example of parity isn't too great when trying to extrapolate to a no holds bar fight to the death. If anything, those two only paint a picture of martial arts parity.

    Though ZBT is no slouch, in their fight YG was basically calling out each Sad Palm 1 by 1... I digress, basically what I'm saying is YG vs ZBT is basically a spar, both weren't serious at all and YG definitely didn't want to kill ZBT.

    At that level, spars between Greats will always be Draws, imo.

    On top of this, there is definitely a surprise factor here (GWM not expecting the sudden counter attack) - so maybe don't read too much into the lv diff = number of exhange here.
    I agree there may be a surprise factor which is why I was using floor-ceiling comparisons which then can be cleanly used to determine leveling.

    YG at his weakest was a low diff 200-300 stance win against GWM (clean fight).
    YG with True Sad Palms won in 4-5 stances, so we can reasonably guess it's between 200/300 - 5.

    I'd be hesitant to say his True Sad Palms only lets him win faster by like 10 stances so it's probably an order of magnitude differences (e.g. ~50-100 stances).

    Either way YG is clearly superior to GWM who is clearly superior to YD.

    Lastly, Greats/GWM were improving their MA in all their years within the framework of their own Great Level MAs. YG unlocked basically Great++++ (HIS to NoSword) MA theory and then had another 16 years to improve and think in terms of that Great++++ framework. It doesn't surprise me that what becomes of that is someone completely superior to the Greats.

    GJ similarly has an absolute beast of a skillset, 9YIN/Quanzhen base + 18 DP + LR makes it clear he's also heads and shoulders higher than the other Greats, IMO.

    4. DFBB's first showing, although he was definitely stronger than everyone present, he definitely had a "surprise" factor to his martial arts that may have boosted his one match effectiveness.

    True, which is why YBQ was able to take out ZLC despite being slightly weaker. A 'surprise attack' can certainly lead to a slightly weaker character winning against a stronger one (particulary an overconfident one).
    I hope we're reaching consensus!

    5. I don't necessarily buy GJ that improved that much passively. I don't have much other commentary here, at the end of the day I do believe GJ should be around YG's level.

    I just want to highlight that GJ LV80 is a "speculation". Primarily to appease YG vs GJ threads
    Yup!

    6. The combat experience against the Du Monks are valuable, I agree but those matches, he went from loss,loss,tie (IIRC). If we just try to think of that in terms of level differences, that's probably a 1 level difference in terms of progression.

    I think the breadth of martial arts and combat exp definitely helps a lot. For e.g. would you rate end-novel XZ the same (or 1 LV diff) with the XZ post TSTL death? They have the exact same skillset/internal.
    I agree that breadth can help a lot only if the user doesn't have much else in their repetoire. If someone acquires Great Level Internal or Great Level External, having another MA that's <Great level doesn't change their ability much other than make them slightly more versatile.

    Combat experience, I agree is a big one, in ZWJ's case, I don't necessarily believe he'd definitively win over his pre 3 fight du monk state. IMO, he just seems "about the same" before and after, but that's definitely up to intrepretation.

    EOS XZ is definitely stronger than XZ post TSTL death because his weak point was his zero experience.
    But we're comparing XZ (effectively zero experience) to ZWJ who by the time that he's acquired TaichiFist/Sword, he's had enough fights/training (with ZSF for months for example) for us to consider substantial.

    More comments:

    LV 77: Zhou Botong (RO) - Pre & Post 16 Years.
    LV 77: Jinlun Fawang (RO) - Post 16 Years.

    I think GWM is one level about ZBT. They're about equal MA wise... but GWM doesn't have the stamina-related problems ZBT has. (disclaimer: I don't remember their encounter very well post 16 years).

    LV 77: Zhang San Feng (YT) - Held back largely by his old age.

    I think it's a shame we see him during ZWJ's prime. I feel like prime Z3F should be around 80.

    LV 80: Feng Qing Yang (XA) - Speculation. Stronger than Ren Wo Xing. Lower limit LV75, upper limit unknown.

    I vaguely remember RWX/FQY comparisons but I only remember RWX having huge respect for FQY (at least in the realm of swordplay).

    At the point we see FQY, I'm not neccessarily convinced he's an 80, given he's old (he made comments about his age? or something affecting how he'd do certain strokes). There's also nothing indicating his Internal Base, that along with the fact that he was in the Sword Branch tells me his Internal may not have been up to snuff.

    Who knows, maybe FQY/DFBB are two sides of the same coin and FQY would've been able to solo DFBB (extrapolating from LHC's brief 1v1 with DFBB).

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    I actually think YG is far ahead of GWM. GWM, pre 16 I can somewhat agree but the Post 16 Year GWM excuded competence.

    1 big reason I am reluctant to place YG far ahead of GWM is that would it would mean YG is FARRR ahead of the original Greats. Given his exchange with HYS/ZBT (albeit not life and death battle), are we ready to give YG that benefit of the doubt? GJ is only slightly ahead of the Greats (pre-16), does that mean YG is also far ahead of GJ? (the audacity!)


    He is already 5 LV ahead of the Greats at this ranking (the same diff as LOCH GJ vs LOCH Great), which I think significant enough. It would be more "reasonable" to attribute the final battle to GWM underperforming/taken by surprise/YG's extreme despair state, rather than YG being far ahead of GWM.


    EOS XZ is definitely stronger than XZ post TSTL death because his weak point was his zero experience.
    But we're comparing XZ (effectively zero experience) to ZWJ who by the time that he's acquired TaichiFist/Sword, he's had enough fights/training (with ZSF for months for example) for us to consider substantial.

    An alternative would be to rate post-Taiji ZWJ at LV75 instead to narrow the gap. I still feel that EOS ZWJ combat ability should have a significant gap with post-Taiji ZWJ. Aside from the broader skillset, he been through battles at pagoda, against the holy envoys, against the du monks and many other skirmishes. Surely he is much more proficient and adaptable during combat.


    I think GWM is one level about ZBT. They're about equal MA wise... but GWM doesn't have the stamina-related problems ZBT has.

    That would place YG even higher.


    Largely agree with the rest, except...


    LV 77: Zhang San Feng (YT) - Held back largely by his old age.

    I think Zhang San Feng himself thought he never quite reached GJ's LV (specifically stated). That said, GJ might be even stronger post-ROCH?

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    I think Zhang San Feng himself thought he never quite reached GJ's LV (specifically stated). That said, GJ might be even stronger post-ROCH?
    ....
    Very very possible IMHO since he is not "busy" again with the Mongols he might be train regulary and get a bit improvement but how about YG did he also "train" post ROCH like GJ😁😁😁😁

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