Which (named) wuxia character best represents the "average wulin fighter?"

[Ken Cheng]

The protagonists, villains, and major supporting characters of wuxia stories tend to be powerful fighters whose martial arts skills far surpass those of the average wulin fighter. Even such lesser lights as DGSD's junior Three Evils, LOCH's Gong Nam 7 Freaks, ROCH's Mo Brothers, HSDS's Seung Yu Chun and Chui Dat, etc., were stronger than the average, unnamed wulin fighter whose role in wuxia stories is to serve as palm/sword fodder for the heroes or villains. Typically, they are anonymous.

Are there any named characters, however, with at least marginally consequential roles in their stories, whose martial arts level represents the "average wulin fighter?" This individual is a trained martial artist and can fight, but is typically finished off quickly by the more important, more powerful characters of wuxia fiction.

[WuxiaMaster]

The first person that came to my mind is Qiu Chu Ji...Haha.

[Ken Cheng]

The first person that came to my mind is Qiu Chu Ji...Haha.

No, he's *way* above average. I think even fighters such as Gwok Siu Teen and Yeung Teet Sum, despite being at the absolute bottom of the barrel in LOCH, were still considerably better than the wulin average.

[PJ]

In DGSD, think of You Tanzhi and Xuzhu before their boosts. Those 2 really sucked.

[Ken Cheng]

In DGSD, think of You Tanzhi and Xuzhu before their boosts. Those 2 really sucked.

Were either of them capable of fighting at all prior to their boosts? I thought that both of them had no martial arts whatsoever pre-boost, but maybe they at least had some fundamental training (especially Hui Juk at Shaolin).

[WuxiaMaster]

This individual is a trained martial artist and can fight, but is typically finished off quickly by the more important, more powerful characters of wuxia fiction.

Hmm...Qiu Chu Ji can hold his own against most of the "low level fighters" but is quickly finish off (He can't take one blow from ROCH great).

If Qiu Chu Ji is too high, how about Ke Zhen E. He's like 20% of Qiu Chu Ji.

[Ken Cheng]

This individual is a trained martial artist and can fight, but is typically finished off quickly by the more important, more powerful characters of wuxia fiction.

Hmm...Qiu Chu Ji can hold his own against most of the "low level fighters" but is quickly finish off (He can't take one blow from ROCH great).

If Qiu Chu Ji is too high, how about Ke Zhen E. He's like 20% of Qiu Chu Ji.

By "powerful," I don't mean the Greats. The Greats are not simply powerful in their era; they are the *epitome* of powerful. Therefore, Yau Chui Gei and even Ohr Jen Ngok count as "powerful" as I reckon it because the average fighter of the era is far below even their levels. Although Yau Chui Gei paled before the Greats, he was still better than 99% of the wulin of his era. Even Ohr Jen Ngok could probably claim to be better than 95% of L/ROCH wulin. Even fighters such as the Gong Nam 7 Freaks and the Jin flunkies of LOCH are exceptional fighters even though they are weak by the Greats' standards.

[HuangYushi]

Ken, define "average" and you'll probably get the answers that you are looking for.

[Bangs]

How bout the useless Wu Dunru and Wu Xiuwen? Those brothers were so average its really a shame to Wu Santong who was much better and could even hold off Li Mochou.

[Ken Cheng]

Ken, define "average" and you'll probably get the answers that you are looking for.

OK. At any given time in the history of wulin, there were probably hundreds of thousands of martial artists active in China. Indeed, at the height of its power, the Beggar's Union alone boasted 300,000 members...most of whom, I assume, had some training in the martial arts.

The vast majority of these individuals, presumably, could not accomplish the kinds of feats that even the Gong Nam 7 Freaks could accomplish (seven people who could defeat one-hundred people in a brawl).

That would be your average. Unlike the Greats and above levels, the deterioriation theory (if one accepts it) doesn't apply here because it seems that the theory applies only to the elite martial arts. The baseline martial arts level should not have varied very much during the centuries between DGSD and FFoSM.

The question is, what character(s) best represent that baseline?

[Ken Cheng]

How bout the useless Wu Dunru and Wu Xiuwen? Those brothers were so average its really a shame to Wu Santong who was much better and could even hold off Li Mochou.

They were weak compared to the likes of Yeh Lut Chai and Yeung Gor, but because they were 1 Yeung Finger Technique practitioners (albeit not very good ones), they qualify as above average.

[PJ]

Sadly, I think even people like Xiang Wanghai (the guy that tried to have a relationship-termination drink with Xiao Feng, who declined it and literally tossed him out of the door) and that Fast Sabre guy, whom I have no doubt reached the peak of perfection in bad timing, who landed just in time to be crushed by the combined forces of Xiao Feng and 2 Xuan generation monks.... qualify as above average.

[HuangYushi]

The vast majority of these individuals, presumably, could not accomplish the kinds of feats that even the Gong Nam 7 Freaks could accomplish (seven people who could defeat one-hundred people in a brawl).

That would be your average. Unlike the Greats and above levels, the deterioriation theory (if one accepts it) doesn't apply here because it seems that the theory applies only to the elite martial arts. The baseline martial arts level should not have varied very much during the centuries between DGSD and FFoSM.

So in other words (and from other posts), your definition of "average" would be:
1. below the level of the Jiangnan Seven; worse than even Chang Yuchun and Xu Da
2. does not know any "great"-type martial arts, e.g. 1 Yang Finger.

In that case, here are some candidates from the Twin Sabres (aka Blade-Dance of the Two Lovers):
(a) The Four Heroes of the Grand Mountain, who talk better than they fight.
(b) Zhou Weixin, who also talks better than he fights.

[HuangYushi]

Sadly, I think even people like Xiang Wanghai (the guy that tried to have a relationship-termination drink with Xiao Feng, who declined it and literally tossed him out of the door) and that Fast Sabre guy, whom I have no doubt reached the peak of perfection in bad timing, who landed just in time to be crushed by the combined forces of Xiao Feng and 2 Xuan generation monks.... qualify as above average.

For all you know, the students of Zuo Zimu, Xin Shuangqing and even He Taichong might qualify as above average ... which of course, doesn't leave us with much choice.

[PJ]

Not to get too much off topic, but .... that Zhou Weixin is the man. We should have a month dedicated to his peak of perfection in citing lyrical expressions to reflect whatever real-time situation is going on.

[HuangYushi]

Not to get too much off topic, but .... that Zhou Weixin is the man. We should have a month dedicated to his peak of perfection in citing lyrical expressions to reflect whatever real-time situation is going on.

September 2006: Zhou Weixin Month?
How did the the honour go from the "Peak Perfection in Swordplay" to "SPeak Profoundity in Situations"?

[yittz]

I think XZ's master can be termed average martial artist.

[WuxiaGem]

It's hard to find people of consequence to the story to be an average fighter. I would say most sects' disciples are average fighters (with the exception of Peach Blossom Island disciples and the Wudang 7).

[IcyFox]

If people like Ke Zhen Ee can be considered powerful, then I suppose we can be considered average.

[Ken Cheng]

If people like Ke Zhen Ee can be considered powerful, then I suppose we can be considered average.

Only a few of us are martial artists, however.

Ohr Jen Ngok was *powerful*, just not at the level of the Greats. Some of the feats he performed would be amazing if performed by any person alive today. Just because a wuxia character is weak compared to the strongest characters in the story doesn't mean that said character is weak overall. Gwok Siu Teen and Yeung Teet Sum were individually the weakest fighters in LOCH *by far*. Neither one would last even a move against a Great, or even five or six moves to a Freak. Bring either one of them to the 21st Century, however, and he'd easily beat up any gang of street toughs as long as firearms aren't involved.