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Thread: Gwok Jing: should he have acted sooner against Genghis Khan?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Gwok Jing: should he have acted sooner against Genghis Khan?

    Gwok Jing is probably my favorite character in wuxia fiction (definitely my favorite from the Jin Yong universe). His view of morality is probably closest to my own, and I admire the way that he worked his way from underdog status to become one of wulin's Greats. Moreover, despite all the good he accomplished, he remained to the end a humble man...never putting himself above others and always concerned about the needs of the common person.

    That being said, Gwok Jing was not without his flaws. There were two choices he made, I thought, that were inconsistent with his character.

    The first, which is not the topic of this discussion, is his failure to tell young Yeung Gor the truth about his father Yeung Hong early on. Gwok Jing's failure here resulted in many troubles for both Yeung Gor and himself in later years...troubles that I believe could have been prevented had Gwok Jing been more characteristically upfront with Yeung Gor about the matter from the beginning.

    A greater problem, however, is Gwok Jing's continued loyalty to Genghis Khan for an extended period after he realized the Khan's ruthless ambitions.

    During the Samarkand expedition, of which Gwok Jing was one of the principle Mongol commanders, Genghis ordered the slaughter of the city's civilians. Gwok Jing, naturally, was outraged by the Khan's decision to commit mass murder against unarmed civilians, but did nothing to stop the Khan. Of course, Gwok Jing was in no position to countermand the orders of the world's most powerful ruler, but the Gwok Jing I admire would have physically intervened if necessary to prevent the loss of innocent life. Instead, Gwok Jing just stood and watched as Mongolian executioners slaughtered civilians by the score.

    Even more uncharacteristic, however, was that Gwok Jing remained loyal to Genghis Khan even after that incident...going so far as to invite Yau Chui Gei to the Mongolian base camp to see if the old Taoist could provide the Khan with an immortality elixir to extend his life. It took the death of Gwok Jing's mother Lee Ping (a decision caused by Genghis' attempt to maintain Gwok Jing's loyalty) for him to finally turn against the Mongols.

    I can understand that Gwok Jing loved Genghis Khan like a father, and felt indebted to the Khan for caring for him and his mother and teaching him so much about being a warrior and a leader, but Gwok Jing was a character who was supposed to understand that morality trumps personal loyalties (a concept that Yeung Hong did not understand or did not accept). Despite Gwok Jing's great personal loyalty to Genghis Khan, I'm surprised that Gwok Jing did not turn against the Khan as soon as the former witnessed the mass slaughter of civilians at Samarkand. There were other clues as to Genghis' true agenda even before Samarkand, but the slaughter really should have sealed the deal for Gwok Jing. It seems out of character that it didn't.

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    I'm wondering if this is a continuity thing from the TVB series or if it's in the novel. Anyone who has access to the novels like to comment?


    As for the Yang Guo issue, there was one part in the novel where he was about to go and tell Yang Guo when HR convinced him not to. I guess this is one place where HR's great cleverness yielded poor result (which only luck let it not become a fatal one).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    During the Samarkand expedition, of which Gwok Jing was one of the principle Mongol commanders, Genghis ordered the slaughter of the city's civilians. Gwok Jing, naturally, was outraged by the Khan's decision to commit mass murder against unarmed civilians, but did nothing to stop the Khan.
    If the Samarkand expedition is about the major Jin city that GJ+HR broke in (while other Genghis Khan's generals cannot), GJ did do something to stop the Khan. Basically, Genghis Khan told his general that the one who can break in the city can get a big reward (probably can ask for anything? - kinda forget the detail) from him. HR want GJ to break his engagement with the Mongol princess. Instead, GJ ask the Khan to reward him by stopping the slaughter of the city's civilians. Although Genghis Khan didn't like this idea, he had to stop this killing because of GJ. This is what I remember.

    Note that, the result of GJ's request is that HR run away from him.
    Last edited by Wu Xing; 08-30-06 at 03:05 PM.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Xing
    If the Samarkand expedition is about the major Jin city that GJ+HR broke in (while other Genghis Khan's generals cannot), GJ did do something to stop the Khan. Basically, Genghis Khan told his general that the one who can break in the city can get a big reward (probably can ask for anything? - kinda forget the detail) from him. HR want GJ to break his engagement with the Mongol princess. Instead, GJ ask the Khan to reward him by stopping the slaughter of the city's civilians.
    Gwok Jing did do that, but by then, scores of civilians had already died while he was still trying to beg the Khan for mercy. I can overlook the first few deaths. Gwok Jing was in shock, and it's doubtful that even the Janitor Monk could have reacted in time to save the first few casualties. After that, however, I think Gwok Jing should have physically stopped the executions before turning to the Khan to plead for mercy. It's just not very Gwok Jing-like to just watch civilians being killed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Gwok Jing did do that, but by then, scores of civilians had already died while he was still trying to beg the Khan for mercy. I can overlook the first few deaths. Gwok Jing was in shock, and it's doubtful that even the Janitor Monk could have reacted in time to save the first few casualties. After that, however, I think Gwok Jing should have physically stopped the executions before turning to the Khan to plead for mercy. It's just not very Gwok Jing-like to just watch civilians being killed.
    There are two things that need to be considered. First, GJ is a general/commanders (not sure about his exact position) in the army and Genghis Khan is the head of the army. It is very common in any army that the order of the head has to be done and this is also a duty of a good soldier. By ignoring Khan and save people without permission will make the Khan's order less important and will shake the whole army. Practically, if that happen and no other ways to get out of situation (to keep Khan's face or make Khan's order effective in the future), GJ will be Khan's enemy and may get terminated immediately including his mom & other Hans that help GJ in the war. GJ may not think about this and act through his soldier's instinct. But I'm pretty sure that JY didn't want this situation happen (or it may have something to do with the real history too). Therefore, by asking Khan as what he did, it shows enough of his courage and very realistic in my opinion (instead being a hero that can physically stop the Genghis Khan's slaughter).

    Also, I'm not sure how many soldiers that start killing. Say, if there are 100 soldiers involved, by just less than a minute, the number of people that got killed may be a few hundred people already. I think, if GJ want to stop killing in a minute, I think he can save at most 10-20 people. If Khan get angry and not listening to GJ, he may order killing the whole city. Do you think how many people can GJ save if Khan didn't order people stop killing? Do you think GJ will go far enough by threatening the Khan? If he do so, do you think this legendary Khan will follow this threatening?

    Second, in GJ's mind, he may think about breaking with the princess as a primary goal. He may keep thinking about the right timing to ask for his reward. He may need time to decide to stop the killing by throwing away his good chance to break the relationship. On the other hands, if he doesn't care about Khan, he may just bring his mom and back to the central plain together with HR & Co. without asking the Khan.

    Basically, it is a complicated situation and I think GJ's reaction is reasonable and not out of his character.

    There is an story about a famous Ming general Qi Jiguang. Once he trained his army and he order every soldier cannot look back only look forward. Then his only son somehow look back during training (or something like that). He kill his *only* son right away. There is also another story when Sun Wu trained a army of a King's concubines.
    Last edited by Wu Xing; 08-30-06 at 05:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    During the Samarkand expedition, of which Gwok Jing was one of the principle Mongol commanders, Genghis ordered the slaughter of the city's civilians. Gwok Jing, naturally, was outraged by the Khan's decision to commit mass murder against unarmed civilians, but did nothing to stop the Khan. Of course, Gwok Jing was in no position to countermand the orders of the world's most powerful ruler, but the Gwok Jing I admire would have physically intervened if necessary to prevent the loss of innocent life. Instead, Gwok Jing just stood and watched as Mongolian executioners slaughtered civilians by the score.
    In the novel, Guo Jing is unaware of the atrocities until the very moment when Genghis, delighted, asks him what he wants as a reward for capturing the city. GJ is just about to bring up the awkward topic of Huazheng when, suddenly, he hears the screams of the Samarkand civilians being slaughtered by the victorious Mongols. When he realises what's going on, he asks Genghis to spare them. Then comes GJ's defining moment as a hero (Chapter 37; my rough translation):

    Genghis Khan growled: "Won't you regret it?"

    Huang Rong had asked Guo Jing to decline the marriage [to Huazheng]. Now, the opportunity to do that had gone. He didn't mind that he'd be losing a lifetime of favour with the Khan; however, the destiny of bliss between himself and Huang Rong had slipped away like flowing water. But with the miserable sight of thousands of screaming, crying commonfolk before his eyes, how could he not save them? How could he watch them die?

    Firmly, he answered: "I won't regret it."
    Jin Yong sets this all up nicely by, in the preceding chapters, allowing the relationship between GJ & Huang Rong gradually to rise in importance until it eclipses almost everything else in the novel; even the capture & execution of Wanyan Honglie is practically an afterthought. JY shows GJ disobeying his masters, his elders, and even the will of his ancestors for HR. But when it comes to the crunch, he cannot but stand with the common people. It's a beautiful moment.

    If there's anything that one might criticise GJ for, it's his lack of intervention on the several occasions when HR bullied & tortured random innocents. Still, such criticism would be rather unreasonable given scenes like the one above. What a hero, eh?
    Last edited by owbjhx; 08-30-06 at 05:27 PM.

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    That makes more sense. In LOCH '82, he watched people get slaughtered for about five seconds, then wasted another two minutes fruitlessly begging Genghis Khan to spare them. In the end, he didn't manage to save a single one of them and felt like crap because of it.

    He'd also completely forgotten about the fact that he was supposed to have requested a dissolution of the betrothment to Princess Hua Jeng (not that he was likely to have gotten it anyway).

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    OK, we've addressed the issue of Gwok Jing's apparent lack of action during the Samarkand incident, but what about his willingness to return to the Khan's service after the incident? Not long after Samarkand, Gwok Jing was captured by West Poison Au Yeung Fung and was the latter's prisoner for several months. After Gwok Jing escaped from Au Yeung Fung, however, he resumed his duties under Genghis...and continued to do so until Genghis effectively forced the death of Gwok Jing's mother. Knowing what a ruthless man Genghis was, why did Gwok Jing continue to serve him? I would think that after the Samarkand incident, Gwok Jing would never return to the Khan's service.

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    Senior Member Ardor's Avatar
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    Because his mother was still there in Mongolia.
    Burying his Dugu 9 Jian manual under an epitaph, Dugu Qiubai felt he has left his legacy for the next generation. He then moved to Shaolin to study Buddhism, sweep floors and tap elite fighters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    The first, which is not the topic of this discussion, is his failure to tell young Yeung Gor the truth about his father Yeung Hong early on. Gwok Jing's failure here resulted in many troubles for both Yeung Gor and himself in later years...troubles that I believe could have been prevented had Gwok Jing been more characteristically upfront with Yeung Gor about the matter from the beginning.
    Wasn't it his mother who kept telling YG that his father was a hero. It would have been hard for GJ to turn around and say otherwise when YG was at a young age. YG had never even met his uncle GJ before. Then he went to QZ and GJ never had the chance to tell him till years later. I do think that it was HR who first convinced GJ to give YG minimal details about his father.
    All that's needed to say have been said, why say anything more? The man is drunk, why stay any longer?....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    OK, we've addressed the issue of Gwok Jing's apparent lack of action during the Samarkand incident, but what about his willingness to return to the Khan's service after the incident? Not long after Samarkand, Gwok Jing was captured by West Poison Au Yeung Fung and was the latter's prisoner for several months. After Gwok Jing escaped from Au Yeung Fung, however, he resumed his duties under Genghis...and continued to do so until Genghis effectively forced the death of Gwok Jing's mother. Knowing what a ruthless man Genghis was, why did Gwok Jing continue to serve him? I would think that after the Samarkand incident, Gwok Jing would never return to the Khan's service.
    My memory on this part is not very well. I probably need to reread again. Nevertheless, let us discuss with a certain logic/reasoning. As Ardor mentioned, his mother was with Genghis Khan. He had to go back to where his mother lived. Since it was the Khan who took care his mother, it is reasonable that he need to return to the Khan's service. In addition, his engagement with princess Huazheng was still there (and the princess is his best friend's sister). In other words, he still belong to the Khan's group. Unless his mother move out with him (i.e., not living under the Khan) and his engagement with the princess is broken, I cannot see GJ leaving Genghis Khan. Therefore, by forcing GJ to attack the central plain which lead to his mother's sacrifice, GJ was free from the Khan.

    Also, I "think" Genghis Khan was probably GJ's father figure. With one bad incident, GJ might not think about Genghis Khan so bad that make him don't want to associate with the Khan.
    Last edited by Wu Xing; 08-31-06 at 12:39 PM.

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    Senior Member Zhuge Liang's Avatar
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    I think GJ not telling YG about his father when he was young was well intentioned - he treated YG like his own son. How is he gonna feel when he is told his father is a steaming pile of poop.
    TristeCoeur on Lady Yang: Someone needs 2 tell her that when u want 2 save people from being killed, u need to hurry the hell up, not play bull#### music & dance around. Her mission failed big time

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