The Gwok Jing/Jebeh archery showdown at the end of LOCH

[Ken Cheng]

But you claimed, without proof, that Jebeh had NO inner power training. COMPLETELY NONE.

How, then, would you support that? I put it to you that you have jumped to that conclusion.

If there's no prove that he didn't do something, it doesn't automatically mean that he didn't, and it doesn't automatically mean that he did.

We're going in circles, but I maintain that the burden of proof is upon its existence, not its non-existence.

Using your logic, one could also claim that Lee Ping and Pau Sik Yerk had awesome martial arts skills...Jin Yong just decided to not mention it.

I mean, seriously, do you think Jebeh had inner power enough to compete in the Mt. Hua Sword Tournament with the Greats?

[IcyFox]

Using your logic, one could also claim that Lee Ping and Pau Sik Yerk had awesome martial arts skills...Jin Yong just decided to not mention it.

Of course. It would then depend on how you support your claim. If you can't, you get laughed at.

[IcyFox]

Anyway, to conclude my participation in this mini debate, I'd just like to say one thing.

With so many uncertainties, I wouldn't 'unexpect' the results.

[Ken Cheng]

Of course. It would then depend on how you support your claim. If you can't, you get laughed at.

Well, then, please present evidence that shows that Jebeh had significant internal power training sufficient enough that his arrows could injure elite Central Plains martial artists with vast inner power. Discount the duel against Gwok Jing because there's an issue of mutual sentimental mercy (they were teacher and student, after all) muddying up the results.

[Ken Cheng]

With so many uncertainties, I wouldn't 'unexpect' the results.

I would, because there are some things I'm reasonably certain about.

[IcyFox]

Well, then, please present evidence that shows that Jebeh had significant internal power training sufficient enough that his arrows could injure elite Central Plains martial artists with vast inner power. Discount the duel against Gwok Jing because there's an issue of mutual sentimental mercy (they were teacher and student, after all) muddying up the results.

That's not what I claimed, actually.

My reasoning is that "Nothing is impossible".

And on top of that, I think we should always come up with alternative theories and provide against them.

[Ken Cheng]

My reasoning is that "Nothing is impossible".

Actually, quite a few things are impossible.

And in most cases, exploring the highly improbable is a waste of energy and time.

[IcyFox]

And in most cases, exploring the highly improbable is a waste of energy and time.

You have the right to make such a claim, but for me I wouldn't say that. That statement is too sweeping for me. I wouldn't dare jump to such a conclusion.

And somehow I feel that you're not trying to understand what I'm trying to say, but you're trying to force me to share your opinion and 'unexpect' the results as you have done. At least that's the impression I get.

[Ken Cheng]

And somehow I feel that you're not trying to understand what I'm trying to say, but you're trying to force me to share your opinion and 'unexpect' the results as you have done. At least that's the impression I get.

You've got the wrong impression. You don't have to agree with me; you just need to stop attacking my basic premises as if they're completely unfounded and fraudulent. That's the impression that *I'm* getting.

[IcyFox]

You've got the wrong impression. You don't have to agree with me; you just need to stop attacking my basic premises as if they're completely unfounded and fraudulent. That's the impression that *I'm* getting.

LOL I see.

We just have different approaches to doing things and I'm just pointing out some of the possible flaws in your approach.


My approach is that I follow the Sum of all Histories. An event can take place in all possible paths in spacetime and the path with the least resistance has the highest probability of happening. But that doesn't mean that the other alternatives cannot happen.

Remember that old saying, "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the answer"?

Right now I believe that you have not eliminated the impossible because the evidence is simply insufficient to prove the impossibility beyond reasonable doubt.

[Ken Cheng]

LOL I see.

We just have different approaches to doing things and I'm just pointing out some of the possible flaws in your approach.


My approach is that I follow the Sum of all Histories. An event can take place in all possible paths in spacetime and the path with the least resistance has the highest probability of happening. But that doesn't mean that the other alternatives cannot happen.

Remember that old saying, "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the answer"?

Right now I believe that you have not eliminated the impossible because the evidence is simply insufficient to prove the impossibility beyond reasonable doubt.

I want no part of anything that complicated in this discussion. I just want to find a reasonable explanation for two similar, yet disparate events separated by about twenty years of time in the Jin Yong universe. I'd like something more substantial and proveable than, "Jebeh actually had great inner power, it's just that Jin Yong never told us about it."

Those kinds of "explanations" just don't cut it with me.

[The Khan]

There is only a fine line between external and internal martial arts. Often a pugilist can train only in external arts and when he is well versed in his arts, his internal strength would also be formidable as well. He may not be able to utilize the internal energy very well. but it would serves as an unconscious supplement to his external skills.

Jebeh may not have been trained in internal martial arts but he was a formidable external martial artist in terms of his excellent archery ability. Hence it would be logical to assume that his unconscious internal energy would also not be weak.

[Mojo Jojo]

It's possible that at the LOCH period, GJ didn't have enough skill to impart any inner power through arrows fired through a bow.

Not many people in wulin actually used a bow even though it would provide a tremendous advantage if you can impart inner power farther than HYS's flicking fingers. This might be because it's not an easy skill to learn.

[ChronoReverse]

It's also possible that GJ simply didn't have as much skill as Jebeh quite yet without his internal energy.

More likely he was just injured and was unable to utilize his internal energy smoothly enough to attach a significant amount to the arrow.

In any case, GJ's feat in ROCH showed that he had a frightening level of internal energy. It may simply be that to attach internal energy to an arrow required tremendous internal energy (and thus why GJ doesn't just shoot Mongolians from miles out all day).



Icyfox:

Considering the abilities that Jebeh has demonstrated throughout LOCH, it's quite safe to say that he has no internal energy training at all. True internal energy training yields a great result after some years of study. Outside of archery, Jebeh was only somewhat better than Temujin's other generals at best. Besides, don't you think Jebeh would've taught GJ it?

Finally, the Mongolians simply didn't have advance martial arts like internal energy breathing exercises. All they had was their wrestling (which was indeed one of if not the best external wrestling technique).


Incidentally, if you really want to make a claim to be a debater, dismissing the other person's ideas without providing support while simultaneously pushing your view without any proof of your own is ridiculous.

There is only a fine line between external and internal martial arts. Often a pugilist can train only in external arts and when he is well versed in his arts, his internal strength would also be formidable as well. He may not be able to utilize the internal energy very well. but it would serves as an unconscious supplement to his external skills.

It is very clear in JY canon that true internal energy training is far superior to the miniscule internal energy that comes from exercise and external martial arts. For example, in ROCH, there was this one person who was severely injured but had a small lesson in internal energy training. Besides GX, he was the only one to be able to even stand when YG did his roar.

[Ken Cheng]

It's possible that at the LOCH period, GJ didn't have enough skill to impart any inner power through arrows fired through a bow.

This is the best explanation yet. At this point, perhaps Gwok Jing didn't have enough skill yet to utilize inner power to supplement his archery technique.

[kyss of the sword]

jebeh was skilled enough to knock away a heavy spear with an arrow when it was about to kill young guo jing, so he should have had some inner power like the seven freaks who gained inner power from external practise.

[Ken Cheng]

jebeh was skilled enough to knock away a heavy spear with an arrow when it was about to kill young guo jing, so he should have had some inner power like the seven freaks who gained inner power from external practise.

That's certainly not out of the question, but even if Jebeh's natural strength did afford him a certain degree of internal energy, it's unlikely to match that of a 9 Yum Jen Ging user whose inner power ranked within wulin's top ten at the time.

[Candide]

Just before the end of LOCH, Gwok Jing and his archery teacher Jebeh engaged in one final archery duel. The result was a tie: either man could have made a legitimate claim to the title of world's greatest archer.

Both men sustained the same injuries (a serious, but non-lethal arrow penetration into the chest).

Sorry that I've been away for a while, but has Master Jin Yong released the 4th edition already?

[ChronoReverse]

Good question, I forgot this was a KC topic . Is this scene actually in the novel?



BTW, although perhaps not the strongest, Mongolian composite bows are certainly very powerful. With a draw of over a hundred pounds (or more I'd imagine for Jebeh's personal bow), it's not really that unbelievable that a well-placed arrow could knock aside even a spear.

[JamesG]

Has anyone wondered if the Steppe tribes had a natural ability to 'divide ones mind' that enabled them to ride a horse at the gallop and accurately shoot a bow?