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Thread: Which JY character can assassinate the Mongol Khan and his generals?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacifian View Post
    This, I doubt, will work. If anything, the Khan will tell his soldiers not to bother about his life, and put the country first before him.
    Not all Mongol Khans were like this. After Kublai, most of them were coward and useless.

    This is one amazing thing about Mongolian soldiers, their efficiency in battle.
    Mongolian soldiers weren't that great. After Kublai and especially toward the end of the Yuan Dynasty, they lost many many battles despite they had much bigger and better equipped army.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Not all Mongol Khans were like this. After Kublai, most of them were coward and useless.



    Mongolian soldiers weren't that great. After Kublai and especially toward the end of the Yuan Dynasty, they lost many many battles despite they had much bigger and better equipped army.
    Same argument can be made for any empire in their declining years. But this does not distract from the greatness they once had.

  3. #23
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Besides, XF.XZ and DY would have already proven they can do it. They did it in a battlefield with the army looking on no less, the other person who could storm the palace (oh, yes forgot to mention Ah Qing, she joins the DGSD brothers in the 'been there, done that' league) is ..... Linghu Chong.


    How do typical palace guards gang up on 1 assassin?

    1.) Surround him with spears! Bad move! He can just swing his sword and all the surrounding soldiers have their wrist tendons cut or get blinded.

    2.) Stand back and shoot him with lots of arrows! Bad move too! See PJ's signature.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    How do typical palace guards gang up on 1 assassin?

    1.) Surround him with spears! Bad move! He can just swing his sword and all the surrounding soldiers have their wrist tendons cut or get blinded.
    Realistically, there is no escape for the assassin when he is surrounded by soldiers with spears. You just can't defence yourself in all possible directions at the same time. You might be able to kill a few soldiers but there is no escape for you when they gang up on you in all possible directions.

    2.) Stand back and shoot him with lots of arrows! Bad move too! See PJ's signature.
    Again, there is no escape for the assassin when there is so many arrows flying toward him/her in all possible directions.
    Last edited by Trien Chieu; 10-18-14 at 11:21 AM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Realistically, there is no escape for the assassin when he is surrounded by soldiers with spears. You just can't defence yourself left, right, front and back at the same time. You might be able to kill a few soldiers but there is no escape for you when they gang up on you in all directions.

    Again, there is no escape for the assassin when there is so many arrows flying toward him/her.
    The first reminds me of Curse of the Golden Flower, where Jay Chou's character did not manage to escape.

    The second reminds me of Hero, where Jet Li's character was shot by the arrows.

    Sorry for the OT as this thread is about JY characters.

  6. #26
    Senior Member charbydis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej View Post
    The first reminds me of Curse of the Golden Flower, where Jay Chou's character did not manage to escape.

    The second reminds me of Hero, where Jet Li's character was shot by the arrows.

    Sorry for the OT as this thread is about JY characters.
    Well, Jay Chou failed cos he did not have Plan B and his dad was too smart!

    Jet Li's character was rumoured to have been based on Jingke who died in his attempt to assassinate Qin ShiHuang. Tony Leung and Maggie Cheung's characters both got out alive after their assassination attempt! If you base the unbelievable ( )level of MA in the movie, if Fei Xue and Wu Ming could defend themselves against repeated rains of arrows at the house, then they should be fine against the soldiers.

    Now would Yan 13 survive if his used his 15th stance? Hmmm.

    Anyhow, arrows are only of use outdoors and effective at certain distances. If the assassin is smart and uses architecture to shield himself as he escapes, then he will greatly increase his chances of survival against arrows. But where to find tall buildings to hide behind in the middle of the desert or on a grassy plain?

    Spears and swords are more dangerous than arrows in an indoor fight. Most of the top JY martial artists should be OK with that. But then they need to outrun the efficient Mongolian cavalry which is no easy feat.
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  7. #27
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    It kind of sucks that he said a few soldiers can overcome top fighters, since ~50 would make much more sense. A lot of martial arts is dodging and speed, and 50 soldiers with armor etc just take up so much space that it completely negates any martial arts -- which makes sense. It's completely believable for a martial artist to completely destroy a 30-50 people as long as there is empty area for him to dodge to if necessary, but once a breaking point is reached where there is absolutely no space to dodge, it makes sense for them to be defeated. But a few soldiers isn't that.

  8. #28
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    It kind of sucks that he said a few soldiers can overcome top fighters, since ~50 would make much more sense. A lot of martial arts is dodging and speed, and 50 soldiers with armor etc just take up so much space that it completely negates any martial arts -- which makes sense. It's completely believable for a martial artist to completely destroy a 30-50 people as long as there is empty area for him to dodge to if necessary, but once a breaking point is reached where there is absolutely no space to dodge, it makes sense for them to be defeated. But a few soldiers isn't that.
    Even fifty seems to be suspiciously low, considering that Kiu Fung once defeated three hundred opponents, each of which was much stronger than any soldier...and Gwok Jing once defeated one hundred Cheun Jen Sect Taoists, each of whom was also much stronger than any soldier.

    To overwhelm a Greats-level fighter with soldiers, it seems like 1,000 men would be the bare minimum.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    To overwhelm a Greats-level fighter with soldiers, it seems like 1,000 men would be the bare minimum.
    Ken, are you serious? 1 great Vs. 1000 soldiers??
    Even Mike Tyson at his prime can't beat 5 soldiers at the same time.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Ken, are you serious? 1 great Vs. 1000 soldiers??
    Even Mike Tyson at his prime can't beat 5 soldiers at the same time.
    Serious. Kiu Fung took on 300 guys who were each better than any soldier, and Gwok Jing also took on 100 guys who were individually better than any soldier. 1000 is a safe estimate.

  11. #31
    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Serious. Kiu Fung took on 300 guys who were each better than any soldier, and Gwok Jing also took on 100 guys who were individually better than any soldier. 1000 is a safe estimate.
    I agree that on paper if 1000 soldiers attacked in a mob or stood in a solid block then it is conceivable that a Great level fighter could kill them.

    However we must remember that the Mongols did not fight like this. They were fast and flexible relying on their legendary speed to overcome enemies that on the surface were more powerful.

    If they had to fight in individual of such calibre they would have stuck fast and hard, loosing waves of arrows from one direction then disappearing and reattacking from a completely different point all the while trying to keep their distance. In this circumstance I would say 100 to 200 men would be sufficeint to take out a Great.

    Remember the army besieging Shaolin in HSDS was pitifully small in relation to the martial artist they faced but they nearly won, showing the virtue of military tactics over individual martial arts.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    I agree that on paper if 1000 soldiers attacked in a mob or stood in a solid block then it is conceivable that a Great level fighter could kill them.

    However we must remember that the Mongols did not fight like this. They were fast and flexible relying on their legendary speed to overcome enemies that on the surface were more powerful.
    The Mongols also rode horses, and when dealing with men on horseback...well...even the most powerful wulin martial arts can help only *so* much. Hong Lung 18 Palms is awesome when used against humans, but used against multiple horses...

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by charbydis View Post
    Well, Jay Chou failed cos he did not have Plan B and his dad was too smart!
    OT: To me, that's the most illogical part of the show. Which "rational" general will bring all 100,000 soldiers in one attack?

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    However we must remember that the Mongols did not fight like this. They were fast and flexible relying on their legendary speed to overcome enemies that on the surface were more powerful.
    Were they that great? If so, why did the Yuan Dynasty collapse? Why did they lose to Chu Yuan Chueng?

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Were they that great? If so, why did the Yuan Dynasty collapse? Why did they lose to Chu Yuan Chueng?
    Things had changed. The Mongols of 1368 were *not* the Mongols of 1279. Ironically, they had lost their edge because they had adopted the sedentary habits of the Han people they had conquered. It had "corrupted" their original warrior mentality.

  16. #36
    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Were they that great? If so, why did the Yuan Dynasty collapse? Why did they lose to Chu Yuan Chueng?
    Why did Rome, or the Hans, or the Tangs fall?. How come the Parthians are no more? Empires like all living things have their lifespans. They are born, they grow and they die.

    But that does not mean that their greatness didn't exist.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Things had changed. The Mongols of 1368 were *not* the Mongols of 1279. Ironically, they had lost their edge because they had adopted the sedentary habits of the Han people they had conquered. It had "corrupted" their original warrior mentality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    Why did Rome, or the Hans, or the Tangs fall?. How come the Parthians are no more? Empires like all living things have their lifespans. They are born, they grow and they die.

    But that does not mean that their greatness didn't exist.
    All empires have their lifespans because they weren't that great to begin with. If you look at history, their lifespans were pretty short. Most of them last only a few hundred years. On the other hand, modern society will last much better. I don't think countries like the US will ever fall.

  18. #38
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Most of them last only a few hundred years.
    That was pretty damn good, all things considered. The Roman Empire was one of the more durable ones, and that lasted about five-hundred years. The average Chinese imperial dynasty (Tang, Sung, Ming, Qing) lasted around an average of 300. The British Empire was dominant for about 150 years.

    On the other hand, modern society will last much better. I don't think countries like the US will ever fall.
    Way too soon to say. It's only been around for 240 years, and it's starting to show signs of decline already.

  19. #39
    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    All empires have their lifespans because they weren't that great to begin with. If you look at history, their lifespans were pretty short. Most of them last only a few hundred years. On the other hand, modern society will last much better. I don't think countries like the US will ever fall.
    And I am sure that there was someone in everyone of these Empires who thought the exact same thing during their golden age. We all know how that turned out.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    And I am sure that there was someone in everyone of these Empires who thought the exact same thing during their golden age. We all know how that turned out.
    Alexander the Great's empire barely outlived him. Almost as soon as he died, his sons began dividing it. It disintegrated within a generation.

    Charlemagne's empire also began disintegrating after his death, though the core of it formed the Holy Roman Empire.

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