Xiao Yuanshan & Murong Bo v Shi Potian

[Extremer88]

Can the combined efforts of Xiao Yuanshan and Murong Bo defeat Shi Potian?

[Whsie]

man, you must love person 1 vs person 2 threads.

I personally feel SPT would win out due to his ideal formless art. I think of SPT like a DY that can fully use his abilities.

[Extremer88]

man, you must love person 1 vs person 2 threads.

Yeah, of course.

[Ardor]

If SPT gets into a pinch, he can just jump over the ocean. Lets see them chase after him then!

[R!chard]

XYS and MRB ~ The 2 lords (they all have great experience and have learned many different styles of art. however they are still all just practitioners of existing arts and have certain limits)

SPT > 2 lords (as proven by the battle on the island)

Thus SPT > MRB and XYS


There you go...a 'perfect' math equation

[PJ]

Murong Bo is someone who has been speculated to project 50+ feet long distance attack. No one in Ode to Gallantry demonstrated this type of excellent stances. It's highly possible that Shi Potian < Murong Bo. So Xiao/Murong together might not need to do much more than lift their fingers.

[Whsie]

Murong Bo is someone who has been speculated to project 50+ feet long distance attack. No one in Ode to Gallantry demonstrated this type of excellent stances. It's highly possible that Shi Potian < Murong Bo. So Xiao/Murong together might not need to do much more than lift their fingers.

I sure hope you're not referring to the speculative 70-80 feet Canhe Finger because by that logic, MRB is >Sweeper and LQS.

[PJ]

I sure hope you're not referring to the speculative 70-80 feet Canhe Finger because by that logic, MRB is >Sweeper and LQS.

No, I was talking about the time when he was in his 30s, when he first met Jiumozhi, and they competed finger skills from 50+ feet away.










ok sorry, that was a stupid harmless joke.

[K2Grey]

Even if MRB had a 70 ft range Canhe Finger there is nothing that says that would make him better than Sweeper Monk and LQS.

There is no scene with Sweeper Monk is unable to attack someone because of insufficient range. Just because he doesn't perform any super long range LDAs has no bearing on whether he can do them or not; since there are no occasions where his target is that far away. When he does do LDAs it seems quite effortless so it's not like he's straining.

LQS used a palm which may have less range than finger skills. Perhaps LQS did not think a mere finger skill would be sufficient to take down XZ, who was demonstrating that he had as much inner power as LQS herself.

[jackattack]

I used to look down on Shi PoTian a lot too, but now I realize how much I underestimate this guy.

If u look at the characters around him, u'll see. Zhang 3 and Li 4 are already the two best fighters in the entire Wu Lin. ( Not including Xie Ke Dao people ). Zhang 3 and Li 4 by themselves could practically terminate an entire sect if they want to, weather its Wu Dang or Shao Lin or Kun Lun. They would just go and destroy the strongest fighter of each sect without effort.

Then compare Zhang 3 and Li 4 to Long Dao Zhu and Mu Dao Zhu, and then they are nothing- just two disciplines out of like 30 others. If Long and Mu Dao Zhu went to the Wu Lin world, they would be like Gods. I don't think even the head abot of Shao Lin or the leader of Wu Dang would be able to last for more than 2 stances against Long and Mu Dao Zhu.

And then comes Shi Po Tian. After learning the mysterious martial arts on the walls of the volcano, he defeated the Long and Mu Dao Zhu EFFORTLESSLY, just by swinging his palms around. In fact, he exhausted them so much that they died.

If Shi potian could do that, then imagine what would happen if he actually was seriously trying to fight.

Xiao Yuan Shan and Mu Rong Bo are good, but I can think of over 20 people that could give them a good fight.

Now, lets take a look at Shi Po Tian. If the best fighters of the Wulin could not lay a finger on Zhang 3 and Li 4, and Lord Long and Lord Mu are Zhang 3 and Li 4's teachers, and Shi po Tian effortlessly defeated ( killed ) Lord Mu and Lord Long without even realizing it......................

scenario : Shi potian goes to the wulin world. The Wulin assembles the VERY BEST fighters to fight him. ( head abot of shaolin, lord of wudang, master of kun lun, best fighter of kong dang, etc etc ).
SHi Potian walks in, tells everyone :" my name is bastard." and then goes to tap all of them to death with a finger.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Yes, Shi Potian (and Xu Zhu) is often considered to be one of the absolute strongest protagonists in all of Jinyong wuxia canon, outside of not-easily-quantifiable figures like Sweeper, DGQB, Damo, etc...

[PJ]

Zhang 3 and Li 4 by themselves could practically terminate an entire sect if they want to, weather its Wu Dang or Shao Lin or Kun Lun. They would just go and destroy the strongest fighter of each sect without effort.

This is going too far. I don't believe it was ever said that Zhang San and Li Si by themselves were capable of "destroying Shaolin or Wudang". They were indeed very powerful, but only compared to low level exponents. Notice in the novel they did not encounter the highest leveled martial artists from the Central Plains such as Xie Yanke and Bai Zizai.

Then compare Zhang 3 and Li 4 to Long Dao Zhu and Mu Dao Zhu, and then they are nothing- just two disciplines out of like 30 others. If Long and Mu Dao Zhu went to the Wu Lin world, they would be like Gods. I don't think even the head abot of Shao Lin or the leader of Wu Dang would be able to last for more than 2 stances against Long and Mu Dao Zhu.

This is again just speculation. It is indeed the case that Lord Long and Lord Mu had no equal in the realm of martial arts, but there's no real evidence (that I know of) they're that much mightier than the abbot of Shaolin.

And then comes Shi Po Tian. After learning the mysterious martial arts on the walls of the volcano, he defeated the Long and Mu Dao Zhu EFFORTLESSLY, just by swinging his palms around. In fact, he exhausted them so much that they died.

True, but the 2 Lords had the best of intentions and they were only competing martial arts. It was a not a real fight. Furthermore, Shi Potian was in a state of unaware, which in Jin Yong universe has been a pattern to boost various protagonists' s martial arts temporarily (for example, Yang Guo defeating GWM in one stance, Linghu Chong landing a blow on Yue Buqun when he was about to die). Had it been an aggressive fight where the Lords' motive was to defeat Shi by any reasonable means, I doubt Shi Potian, an inexperienced newbie in martial arts, would have prevailed over the 2 Lords.

And that is the key point: despite having learned the mighty Ode to Gallantry art, he is still extremely inexperienced in the field of martial arts. Once the trance is over, he will most likely be back to his normal novice state. He needs much more practice before he can really be considered proficient in martial arts, just like Duan Yu, Xuzhu, and Zhang Wuji prior to learning Taiji Sword.

[jackattack]

This is going too far. I don't believe it was ever said that Zhang San and Li Si by themselves were capable of "destroying Shaolin or Wudang". They were indeed very powerful, but only compared to low level exponents. Notice in the novel they did not encounter the highest leveled martial artists from the Central Plains such as Xie Yanke and Bai Zizai.



This is again just speculation. It is indeed the case that Lord Long and Lord Mu had no equal in the realm of martial arts, but there's no real evidence (that I know of) they're that much mightier than the abbot of Shaolin.



True, but the 2 Lords had the best of intentions and they were only competing martial arts. It was a not a real fight. Furthermore, Shi Potian was in a state of unaware, which in Jin Yong universe has been a pattern to boost various protagonists' s martial arts temporarily (for example, Yang Guo defeating GWM in one stance, Linghu Chong landing a blow on Yue Buqun when he was about to die). Had it been an aggressive fight where the Lords' motive was to defeat Shi by any reasonable means, I doubt Shi Potian, an inexperienced newbie in martial arts, would have prevailed over the 2 Lords.

And that is the key point: despite having learned the mighty Ode to Gallantry art, he is still extremely inexperienced in the field of martial arts. Once the trance is over, he will most likely be back to his normal novice state. He needs much more practice before he can really be considered proficient in martial arts, just like Duan Yu, Xuzhu, and Zhang Wuji prior to learning Taiji Sword.

From what I remember, Zhang 3 and Li 4 have fought some of the most powerful fighters in the central plain and killed them easily. For example, when Zhang 3 and Li 4 were just teenagers ( 16 ), they killed the headmaster of Kun Lun effortlessly. They also terminated that one clan, i forgot the name, but it was said that in a course of 50 days all the people of the sect were murdered.
It has been stated numerous times that Zhang 3 and Li 4 had "unmatched" skills. Why else would the entire Wu Lin wet themselves at the thought of being approached by them??

Also, didn't the two lords block Shao Lin and held off all the best fighters of Shao Lin for 7 days?

[PJ]

From what I remember, Zhang 3 and Li 4 have fought some of the most powerful fighters in the central plain and killed them easily. For example, when Zhang 3 and Li 4 were just teenagers ( 16 ), they killed the headmaster of Kun Lun effortlessly.

If you mean Taoist Priest Yushan, he was the head of Kongtong School (per 3rd edition; in the 2nd edition, he was head of Qingcheng school). Zhang San and Li Si ambushed him and struck him suddenly when he had his guard down, similar to how the child Guo Jing managed to kill Chen Xuanfeng. After they killed Yushan, they escaped because they were not skilled enough to handle the experts of the school (which is understandable; after all, they were only teenagers).

In the novel's present day, we only see Zhang San and Li Si meeting extremely inferior foes, no one near the calibre of Bai Zizai of Snow Mountain, Priest Yucha of Wudang, Abbot Miaodi of Shaolin, or Xie Yanke of Skyscraping Cliff. It was therefore easy for Zhang San and Li Si to stand out as god-like, but Bao Butong of DGSD also appeared god-like by effortlessly dispatching tens of people from a major wulin sect, and Qiu Chuji when he first appeared in LOCH was god-like to the low level fighters around him.

It has been stated numerous times that Zhang 3 and Li 4 had "unmatched" skills.

That was just speculation by people who never actually met them.

Why else would the entire Wu Lin wet themselves at the thought of being approached by them??

Like you pointed out, they ambushed a lot of people and made others mysteriously disappear. To me, that's more like organized crime than a display of martial arts. How many people have actually witnessed their martial arts in person? Very few. They're afraid of Gallant Island's mysterious methods, not necessarily their martial arts.

Also, didn't the two lords block Shao Lin and held off all the best fighters of Shao Lin for 7 days?

Yep, they did, and I give them full credit for that. However, it doesn't mean the 2 lords can terminate Shaolin, which is a rather huge leap of faith; and it doesn't say anything about their disciples Zhang San and Li Si (you had proclaimed that Zhang San and Li Si by themselves could destroy Shaolin).

[jackattack]

If you mean Taoist Priest Yushan, he was the head of Kongtong School (per 3rd edition; in the 2nd edition, he was head of Qingcheng school). Zhang San and Li Si ambushed him and struck him suddenly when he had his guard down, similar to how the child Guo Jing managed to kill Chen Xuanfeng. After they killed Yushan, they escaped because they were not skilled enough to handle the experts of the school (which is understandable; after all, they were only teenagers).

In the novel's present day, we only see Zhang San and Li Si meeting extremely inferior foes, no one near the calibre of Bai Zizai of Snow Mountain, Priest Yucha of Wudang, Abbot Miaodi of Shaolin, or Xie Yanke of Skyscraping Cliff. It was therefore easy for Zhang San and Li Si to stand out as god-like, but Bao Butong of DGSD also appeared god-like by effortlessly dispatching tens of people from a major wulin sect, and Qiu Chuji when he first appeared in LOCH was god-like to the low level fighters around him.



That was just speculation by people who never actually met them.



Like you pointed out, they ambushed a lot of people and made others mysteriously disappear. To me, that's more like organized crime than a display of martial arts. How many people have actually witnessed their martial arts in person? Very few. They're afraid of Gallant Island's mysterious methods, not necessarily their martial arts.



Yep, they did, and I give them full credit for that. However, it doesn't mean the 2 lords can terminate Shaolin, which is a rather huge leap of faith; and it doesn't say anything about their disciples Zhang San and Li Si (you had proclaimed that Zhang San and Li Si by themselves could destroy Shaolin).

okok so u actually think Xiao Yuan Shan and Mu Rongbo could win against Shi potian??

[PJ]

okok so u actually think Xiao Yuan Shan and Mu Rongbo could win against Shi potian??

Yes, I think that is a possible scenario.

If it's Shi Potian in trance mode, he might have a chance against the Xiao/Murong duo. But if it's Shi Potian back to normal mode, I think he might be toast in minutes due to his lack of mastery of the newly acquired Ode to Gallantry art, and in martial arts in general.

[jackattack]

Yes, I think that is a possible scenario.

If it's Shi Potian in trance mode, he might have a chance against the Xiao/Murong duo. But if it's Shi Potian back to normal mode, I think he might be toast in minutes.

haha, well, its 18 to 5 now in Shi Potian's favour.

[PJ]

haha, well, its 18 to 5 now in Shi Potian's favour.

Well, there has been a hype about Shi Potian's divine abilities for a few years... but before that, it was widely believed that Shi Potian is at or below the level of Guo Jing and/or Xiao Feng. Veterans from the old forum should remember this.

I tend to stand in the middle on this discussion. I believe Shi Potian (at least in trance mode) is better than 1 Guo Jing, but would likely be defeated by 2 Guo Jing's.

[jackattack]

Well, there has been a hype about Shi Potian's divine abilities for a few years... but before that, it was widely believed that Shi Potian is at or below the level of Guo Jing and/or Xiao Feng. Veterans from the old forum should remember this.

I tend to stand in the middle on this discussion. I believe Shi Potian (at least in trance mode) is better than 1 Guo Jing, but would likely be defeated by 2 Guo Jing's.

Didn't Long Dao Zhu tell Shi Po Tian that, not only is he THE best in their current martial arts world, his skills are also rarely matched even compared to the most powerful fighters in the history of martial arts.

[CC]

Didn't Long Dao Zhu tell Shi Po Tian that, not only is he THE best in their current martial arts world, his skills are also rarely matched even compared to the most powerful fighters in the history of martial arts.

Even if that was true, XYS and MRB are amongst the most powerful of fighters that actually appeared in JY books. And its 2 vs 1 here.

To compare teenage Zhang and Li, as PJ already stated, they had to ambush the school head. MRB was capable of giving killing blows to 1st class fighters when he was a teen (no ambush needed).

The 2 lords could camp at Shaolin for 7 days and no-one could do anything to budge em. 1 XYS showed that he was capable of single handedly KILLING 30 or so of Wulin's ELITE lead by Shaolin's abott himself and they couldn't stop him either. Isn't that pretty much as impressive (and there was only 1 of him).You can imagine if 2 XYSs' were blocking DGSD's shaolin gate, after the 1st 20-30 Xuan monks lie dead, no body is going to budge em from the gate either.**

As for reputation. In early DGSD, those guys were crapping themselves in the pants when Murong Bo was first mentioned.


** I need to draw attention to the usual JY tactic of 'Pre-Novel Ingloriousness' (or 'PNI', PJ help!).

In XKX, blocking Shaolin's gate for 7 days sounds impressive, I agree. But if it was said that 1 Lord wiped out a force of the top fighters in wulin gathered to stop him without breaking sweat (which is basically what XYS did before he even learnt the Shaolin skills), you guys would be assuming that 1 Lord could kill Wudang's/Shaolin's/Kongtong's/Emei's head plus all their top disciples while taking a crap and reading a book too right?

i.e. We know XYS at his peak wouldn't be able to stop 30 of 'Wulin's best' in DGSD times. Because that would include MRF+YTZ+JMZ+MRB+Xuan Ci+DCQ+DYQ and that is only 7 of em and I haven't included XF and the 2 Xiao Yao elders yet! Basically, inside the actual story, he could NOT do it, but 'off the pages' he could.

Basically, take these 'not-narrated 1st hand' JY hyperbole in the proper perspective...

Oh, and 'terminating a clan' sounds intimidating when done off the books but Lin Ping Zhi did just that 'in the book'.... and he did not need 50 days either...