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Thread: Green From Blue: The Evolution of the Greats in the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY

  1. #1
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Green From Blue: The Evolution of the Greats in the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY

    There's long been a belief of a "Deterioration Theory" of martial arts in the Jin Yong universe. From the Northern Sung Dynasty period of DEMIGODS & SEMIDEVILS, there seemed to be a general downward trend in martial arts that led to the relatively "weak" fighters of the Qing Dynasty stories such as DUKE OF MT. DEER, BOOK AND SWORD GRATITUDE AND REVENGE, and FLYING FOX OF SNOWY MOUNTAIN. There might or might not have been, but within the parameters of the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY, the development of the Greats seemed to be accelerating, if not actually increasing beyond a certain point.

    The Greats as of the end of ROCH were as powerful as any of the Greats from LEGEND OF THE CONDOR HEROES, RETURN OF THE CONDOR HEROES, or HEAVEN SWORD & DRAGON SABRE were going to get. Cheung 3 Fung and Cheung Mo Gei *might* have surpassed this level, but we don't know for sure. Let's call this level Maximum Potential Greats, or MPG for short. This is the level where we saw the Greats of ROCH top out (not that the younger ones such as Gwok Jing, Yeung Gor, and Cheung Mo Gei couldn't have reached a higher level later, but this is the highest known level any Great achieved).

    In each generation, it seemed that the Greats reached MPG at a younger age.

    1. First Generation Greats (East Heretic Wong Yerk See, West Poison Au Yeung Fung, South Emperor Deun Chi Hing/1 Deng the Monk, North Beggar Hung 7 Gung, Central Mischief Chow Bak Tung): those who lived into their 80s and 90s did not reach MPG until that age.

    2. Second Generation Great (North Hero Gwok Jing): reached MPG in 50s/60s.

    3. Third Generation Great (West Passionate Yeung Gor): reached MPG in 30s.

    4. Fourth Generation Great (Ming Cult Leader Cheung Mo Gei): reached MPG in 20s.

    See a trend here?

    With each passing generation, the Greats achieved MPG at a younger and younger age.

    Some remaining questions:

    1. Did Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung or Ancient Tomb Sect Founder Lam Chiu Ying reach MPG before they died? If so, how old were they when they did so?

    2. At what age did the Golden Wheel Monk achieve MPG?

    3. At what age did Mo Dong Sect Founder Cheung 3 Fung reach MPG?

  2. #2
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    I think Lin Chao Yin and Wang Chong Yang both achieved MPG before they died. Lin Chao Yin died in progress, so her max was at her death time. WCY's MPG should be after the tournament because he also understood 9 Yin after the tournament+he learned Solitary Yang Finger. So WCY reached MPG somewhere within the 3 years after the tournament.

    JLFW reached his MPG in his mid 70s. He didn't get to level 10 of Dragon Elephant Prana Skill too long at the end of ROCH, so he peaked near the end of ROCH. And it was said that JLFW is 20 years older than GJ who is 55, so JLFW peaked at 75.

    Z3F...., not enough info.

    yes, you are correct.
    Original Greats-90s MPG
    GJ- 55
    YG-36
    ZWJ- 21/22
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    Z3F...., not enough info.

    yes, you are correct.
    Original Greats-90s MPG
    GJ- 55
    YG-36
    ZWJ- 21/22
    I think its fairer to compare Original Greats with maybe Z3F and GWM.

    GJ - Had 9 Yin boost + some lucky breaks with synergistic kung-fu

    YG - Snake Gall Bladders

    ZWJ - Qian Kun Bag

    Just like we can't use XZ or DY as a yardstick.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    That's why I find it much more reasonable to respect people like SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan who had less to work with, and put in so much effort and hard work to get to where they are today. Zhuo Bufan dedicated 30 years of his life in isolated training in the mountains for the pursuit of the ultimate perfection in swordsmanship, whereas Yang Guo simply ate some snake bladders. Now you tell me, which one deserves more respect?
    Last edited by PJ; 10-11-06 at 10:16 AM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member Exodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    That's why I find it much more reasonable to respect people like SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan who put in so much effort and hard work to get to where they are today. Zhuo Bufan dedicated 30 years of his life in isolated training in the mountains for the pursuit of the ultimate perfection in swordsmanship, whereas Yang Guo simply ate some snake bladders. Now you tell me, which one deserves more respect?
    ofcourse YG deserves more respect it's pathetic to use 30 years to train when you can eat snake gall bladders

    Zhuo Bufan sucks he got beaten badly by an inexperience XZ and I don't know why people are starting to mention his name so often

  6. #6
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus
    ofcourse YG deserves more respect it's pathetic to use 30 years to train when you can eat snake gall bladders
    By your logic then Xuzhu and Duan Yu deserve so much more respect than idiots like Zhang Sanfeng and Guo Jing who spent all their life perfecting martial arts but in fact they could have simply sucked the energy of 3 martial arts sages or ate animal parts and they would become infinitely more powerful. Such foolish losers Zhang Sanfeng and Guo Jing are, by your logic....

    Zhuo Bufan sucks he got beaten badly by an inexperience XZ and I don't know why people are starting to mention his name so often
    When you show me hardcore evidence from the novel that Yang Guo can throw objects THREE TO FOUR MILES ACROSS MOUNTAINS, I will agree with you that Zhuo Bufan stinks. Until then, SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan remains The Lord of Crystal Clear Voice Transmission, The Master of Throwing Objects Across Mountains, The Saint of Sword Nimbus, The Sage of Single Stance Execution, The Peak of Perfection in Swordplay -- The God of Sword, The Sword of God, SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member Exodus's Avatar
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    PJ, guess you are the only one that cares about Zhou Bufan...

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus
    PJ, guess you are the only one that cares about Zhou Bufan...
    Take a look at the moderator's recent poll on the popularity of SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan and it proves you wrong. People LOVE Zhuo Bufan: http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=17940

    And For GOD's sake for the 100th time, it's ZHUO Bufan. For the love of Jin Yong people, can you please stop mispelling this simple little name?
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member endo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ

    And For GOD's sake for the 100th time, it's ZHUO Bufan. For the love of Jin Yong people, can you please stop mispelling this simple little name?

    who cares about such an insignificant simple little character...frankly, i'm tired of all the reference to someone that has no significant impact on any of the wuxia novels that are being discussed here
    "my only fear of death is reincarnation...back into this life of strife" - 2pac

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by endo
    who cares about such an insignificant simple little character...frankly, i'm tired of all the reference to someone that has no significant impact on any of the wuxia novels that are being discussed here
    Insignificant?!?!? Who else in ALL JY stories was described by the narrator as having acheived the Peak of Perfection in Swordplay , as having the ability to throw objects across entire mountains, to send crystal clear voice transmissions across peaks and to generate Impressive Sword Nimbus. SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan was capable of ALL FOUR saintly feats! Show us ONE character who can do HALF of the four!

    SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan showed such mastery and peak of perfection in techniques and abilities that no one else for the 6 to 7 centuries after the events in DGSD ever dared take or received the title of SWORD GOD! DGKB for all his vanity could only make Sword Demon! Zhang San Feng, Feng QingYang and Linghu Chong didn't even get to Sword Saint!

    There can only be ONE! The Lord of Crystal Clear Voice Transmission Across Peaks, The Master of Throwing Objects Across Mountains, The Saint of Sword Nimbus, The Peak of Perfection in Swordplay, The God of Sword, The Sword of God, SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan!
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Chongxu could generate sword nimbus and glowing circles of sword light. That is one saintly feat. Also, he was said to have mastered Taiji Sword. In HSDS it says that Taiji Sword was a technique unprecedented in sophistication. This indicates that it is the best sword technique and Chongxu was supposed to have mastered it; thus, he can be said to have achieved the peak of perfection in swordplay. As such, I say he has half of the four

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    Chongxu could generate sword nimbus and glowing circles of sword light. That is one saintly feat. Also, he was said to have mastered Taiji Sword. In HSDS it says that Taiji Sword was a technique unprecedented in sophistication. This indicates that it is the best sword technique and Chongxu was supposed to have mastered it; thus, he can be said to have achieved the peak of perfection in swordplay. As such, I say he has half of the four
    Like several other swordsman, their sword light comes from them swinging the blade around. Its 'cheating' since when a metal blade moves around, it generates light reflection. SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan did it with a stationery blade.

    Ha! Thats not the same as being praised by the narrator as the Peak of Perfection in Swordplay!
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Zhuo Bufan wasn't in the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY. Let's leave him out of this. He is neither necessary nor germane to the current discussion.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    Also, he was said to have mastered Taiji Sword.
    Can anyone paste the exact text description?
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC

    SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan showed such mastery and peak of perfection in techniques and abilities that no one else for the 6 to 7 centuries after the events in DGSD ever dared take or received the title of SWORD GOD! DGKB for all his vanity could only make Sword Demon! Zhang San Feng, Feng QingYang and Linghu Chong didn't even get to Sword Saint!
    Sword Saint? Then we mind as well include HU ZU DAO, the legend of the Kun Lwun Sect. His skill level was said to have been able to easily beat Shaolin! He as able to carve with perfection .5 inch into "stones as hard as metal".
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出“一阳指”功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的“一阳指”功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    I think its fairer to compare Original Greats with maybe Z3F and GWM.

    GJ - Had 9 Yin boost + some lucky breaks with synergistic kung-fu

    YG - Snake Gall Bladders

    ZWJ - Qian Kun Bag

    Just like we can't use XZ or DY as a yardstick.
    But then, going by the same logic, really, we can say XL18Z and YYZ are boosts too.

  17. #17
    TommyH
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordwiz
    But then, going by the same logic, really, we can say XL18Z and YYZ are boosts too.
    HL18Z and 1YZ are offensive skills and are not internal energy cultivation so you can't really consider them boosts since they require high internal power and doesn't give internal power (unlike skills like 9Yin or snake bladders).

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    Senior Member The_One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyH
    HL18Z and 1YZ are offensive skills and are not internal energy cultivation so you can't really consider them boosts since they require high internal power and doesn't give internal power (unlike skills like 9Yin or snake bladders).
    1YZ has the ability to heal. So isn't it more internal than external?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyH
    HL18Z and 1YZ are offensive skills and are not internal energy cultivation so you can't really consider them boosts since they require high internal power and doesn't give internal power (unlike skills like 9Yin or snake bladders).
    But without those skills, how would their martial arts be like? (And if you want to talk about internal, what about Xian Tian Gong?)

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    IMHO, we must see the triology as one. The martial arts in the triology didnt get deteriorated, but less people could achive Great level. In my book all the greats (new and old) and ZWJ and Z3F, at their peek, are all on the same level and top of their era. A fight between two of them, would most likely draw or go either way.

    The era before, DGSD, had better skills and people above Great level. After the triology, the skills got even fewer and we could discuss whether there are any Great level figthers left.

    The most interesting about Ken first post is the age thing. Dont know if JY has a deeper meening about this or is it just a coincidence or because it fits well in the story.
    You do know that it is just fiction, dont you?

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