DOMD: great satire and comedy, but pretty lousy as straight wuxia?

[Ken Cheng]

DUKE OF MT. DEER was never meant to be a straight wuxia novel like the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY, STATE OF DIVINITY, or even DEMIGODS & SEMIDEVILS. It was a satiric look at the whole wuxia genre, and a hilarious one at that. For these reasons, DUKE OF MT DEER, taken for what it is, is considered one of Jin Yong's finest works. Some even consider it his best work.

If one tries to take DOMD as straight wuxia, however, isn't it pretty much terrible? Both the wu and the xia in DOMD are pretty underwhelming (although intentionally so). Even the more straightforward wuxia stories have moments of effective comic relief to balance them out, but in the moments that DOMD tries to be more serious, it just doesn't quite succeed. One still feels like one is following a comedy rather than a wuxia story.

[Ardor]

The abilities are pretty watered down, the heroism of others are still there. It is just the glaring contrast of being heroic and being rational-ish (Wei Xiao Bao) in a given situation that may make it appear more comical. It still counts as a pretty decent wuxia, i think.

[TommyH]

When someone says wuxia to me I think of powerful skills like HL18Z and 6MSJ right away and serious wulin fighters like XF and HYS. But when someone say DOMD I think of WXB right away. WXB is neither serious nor powerful but he is the main character of DOMD. And for that I just don't group DOMD in the same category of wuxia as I group DGSD, LOCH, and ROCH.

[The Khan]

DomD is the best novel JY ever wrote

[RongYingMin]

I always consider DOMD one of the greatest wuxia novels ever.

If one tries to take DOMD as straight wuxia, however, isn't it pretty much terrible? Both the wu and the xia in DOMD are pretty underwhelming (although intentionally so). Even the more straightforward wuxia stories have moments of effective comic relief to balance them out, but in the moments that DOMD tries to be more serious, it just doesn't quite succeed. One still feels like one is following a comedy rather than a wuxia story.

* as for the Wu: though in DOMD there were not many elite skills as in other great novels of Jin Yong but at least you shouldn't underestimate it too much like that.
the Wu in this novel was something which is very close to REAL kung fu skills.
* in regard to the Xia: the chivalrousness of the characters such as: Zhen Gennan, Wu Luqi, and some characters whose names I can't remember, and in a certain extent - Wei Xiao Bao, was not much inferior to that of anyone else in Jin Yong's universe.

[Candide]

Ken, I wish you could read DOMD the novel (I'm being serious, no joking). It has wu and it has xia in full. Maybe its Wu isn't as extravagant as the Trilogy or others, but it's still Wu, and it's actually closer to real life kungfu. As for the Xia and other themes, the adaptations are quite fun to watch but they can't present a lot of things written in the novel. WXB is more xia than many people, especially considering his circumstances.

[Ken Cheng]

Ken, I wish you could read DOMD the novel (I'm being serious, no joking). It has wu and it has xia in full. Maybe its Wu isn't as extravagant as the Trilogy or others, but it's still Wu, and it's actually closer to real life kungfu.

Which can be fantastic in a real life context, but is dull when compared to everything else featured in the Jin Yong canon. After Hong Lung 18 Palms, 6 Mak Divine Swords, etc., it's hard to get excited about guys with good fist techniques or kicking techniques.

WXB is more xia than many people, especially considering his circumstances.

He had his moments, but was still more scoundrel than xia. For me, Wai Siu Bo's glowing moment of morality was the outrage he felt after learning that his good friend, a Qing official known for his honesty, integrity, and dedication to the people of the country, had his limbs severed and tongue torn out for having offended Ng 3 Gwai in some way. Wai Siu Bo greatly admired this official's character, and wanted Ng 3 Gwai's blood badly when he learned of the despicable way that the official had been treated by Ng. It was the one moment that I saw the xia spirit in Wai Siu Bo.

[Candide]

WXB's greatest moments are:

- Helping the trapped Heaven & Earth society members escape the firing cannons of the Qing army, despite Kang Xi's promise of wealth and power beyond his imagination and being trapped in the palace.
- Refusing to steal Kang Xi's ancestors' hidden treasures (which was said to be enough for the Manchus to live many generations in great prosperity if they were kicked out of China) despite having the map and going through endless troubles and dangers to obtain the pieces, because Kang Xi was his friend, and also refusing to harm the Heaven & Earth Society although he was threatened with death for his entire family if he did not cooperate.

Being a gambler and someone who's so obsessed with money, those are incredibly hard feats. WXB talked like a scoundrel but his actual feats did not give me that impression (except for a few things like the one in the brothel with 7 women).

[Ken Cheng]

WXB's greatest moments are:

- Helping the trapped Heaven & Earth society members escape the firing cannons of the Qing army, despite Kang Xi's promise of wealth and power beyond his imagination and being trapped in the palace.
- Refusing to steal Kang Xi's ancestors' hidden treasures (which was said to be enough for the Manchus to live many generations in great prosperity if they were kicked out of China) despite having the map and going through endless troubles and dangers to obtain the pieces, because Kang Xi was his friend, and also refusing to harm the Heaven & Earth Society although he was threatened with death for his entire family if he did not cooperate.

Being a gambler and someone who's so obsessed with money, those are incredibly hard feats. WXB talked like a scoundrel but his actual feats did not give me that impression (except for a few things like the one in the brothel with 7 women).

Unlike the more conventional wuxia heroes, I think Wai Siu Bo never realized he had it in him. There might have been glimmers of a xia deep down there, but even Wai Siu Bo probably didn't recognize it (until those dramatic moments when they burst from seemingly nowhere).

[Pacifian]

After Hong Lung 18 Palms, 6 Mak Divine Swords, etc., it's hard to get excited about guys with good fist techniques or kicking techniques.

Doesn't the recent craze about Sword God Zhuo tell you anything about JinYong's style of writing? In comparison with the DGSD fighting scenes, DOMD fighting scenes could probably be considered tame. However, JY always added lotsa descriptions to colour up the fighting scenes, using words like 'incredible', 'extremely' and lots of special traits to every fighting skill, be it a minor one. Metaphors were so frequently used you could not say the fighting scenes is uninteresting. When I first read Other Adventures of Flying Fox, I thought the martial arts in the novel were quite sweeper monk-like. They always perform near-impossible feats to ensure DOMD was not at all far away from a straight-wuxia.

Unlike the more conventional wuxia heroes, I think Wai Siu Bo never realized he had it in him. There might have been glimmers of a xia deep down there, but even Wai Siu Bo probably didn't recognize it (until those dramatic moments when they burst from seemingly nowhere).

WXB is a scoundrel, yet he is one of the only people in the book who values 'yi', (also known as the innate characteristic about repaying somebody kindness, not forsaking a friend for he is a friend etc etc.) much more than 80 to 90 percent of the other characters in the book.

Had he really been a total scoundrel, the book would have became a totally detestable story as hardly anybody would be bothered with the various cruel tactics WXB employed solely for his own personal interests. The fact that we see him being compelled by two opposing forces to eliminate the other party shows how much WXB recognises the good both parties had done for him in the past. He could have easily become a true spy working for one of the parties, and easily(okay, not that easy, but possible) destroys the other party. Either case, he could have become a person with great power, without any worries. These 'xia' in him was certainly not in the size of tiny glimmers, they pretty much played a huge role in moulding the story into what it is.

If one tries to take DOMD as straight wuxia, however, isn't it pretty much terrible? Both the wu and the xia in DOMD are pretty underwhelming (although intentionally so). Even the more straightforward wuxia stories have moments of effective comic relief to balance them out, but in the moments that DOMD tries to be more serious, it just doesn't quite succeed. One still feels like one is following a comedy rather than a wuxia story.

To each his own.

We often see WXB caught in a dilemma, wondering what should he do to minimise damage done to KangXi or his brothers in Heaven-Earth Society. We also see him being most unwilling to lie and betray KangXi, yet he must. He wanted to tell the truth, but he couldn't. He wanted to escape without hurting the people he wouldn't want to hurt at all, but fate wants it no other way.

JY wanted his final character to become an exceptional one as compared to the 'heroic' ones, he wanted to portray another aspect of the Han vs Manchus, by using a detestable character to make things more enjoyable. You might have seen this from a different view, but really these opinions varies to different perspectives.

[kidd]

The fact that we see him being compelled by two opposing forces to eliminate the other party shows how much WXB recognises the good both parties had done for him in the past. He could have easily become a true spy working for one of the parties, and easily(okay, not that easy, but possible) destroys the other party. Either case, he could have become a person with great power, without any worries.

This sounds like Xiao Feng.