Sweeper monk

[dracnom]

- 2 monks in SPW did NOT know DGQB, they knew only Feng Qingyang, and there was no evidence of FQY's win over Fang Zheng.

The essence of the move really depends on your own interpretation.

I said they knew DG9J the sword technique not the person DGQB, and you didn't state FQY learning the ninth stance in > 20 years. It just says "The essence of the move really depends on your own interpretation." therefore, he wouldn't have a clue about DGQB's DG9J's 9th stance as he interpretated it in his own way.

[RongYingMin]

I still don't see anything which even implies that "DGQB was said to be ONLY using DG9J to deal with opponents".

I can't understand why you can't.
From the following passage:

• When senior master Dugu took on the entire Martial World with this set of Dugu Nine Swords many years ago, he couldn’t even find a single person that could defeat him, that was all because he had reached the acme of perfection with the set of sword techniques.

(Said Feng Qingyang, Chapter 10).
It can obviously infer that: ALL BECAUSE OF Dugu 9 Jian, he COULD NOT even FIND a single person who COULD beat him.
Notice the word "ALL" here, from that we can infer that his other external kung fu skills were no interesting.
Not sure about his internal energy.

WHO was not far inferior to Sweeper Monk??? I don't suppose you're trying to indicate Feng Qing Yang?

You misunderstood my post, I'm trying to prove that Dugu Qiubai was FAR INFERIOR to Sweeper Monk..

I said they knew DG9J the sword technique not the person DGQB, and you didn't state FQY learning the ninth stance in > 20 years. It just says "The essence of the move really depends on your own interpretation." therefore, he wouldn't have a clue about DGQB's DG9J's 9th stance as he interpretated it in his own way.

Because he could state that, that means he really mastered the 9th stance.

[TommyH]

I can't understand why you can't.
From the following passage:

• When senior master Dugu took on the entire Martial World with this set of Dugu Nine Swords many years ago, he couldn’t even find a single person that could defeat him, that was all because he had reached the acme of perfection with the set of sword techniques.

(Said Feng Qingyang, Chapter 10).
It can obviously infer that: ALL BECAUSE OF Dugu 9 Jian, he COULD NOT even FIND a single person who COULD beat him.
Notice the word "ALL" here, from that we can infer that his other external kung fu skills were no interesting.
Not sure about his internal energy.

You misunderstood my post, I'm trying to prove that Dugu Qiubai was FAR INFERIOR to Sweeper Monk..

I wonder how Feng Qingyang knows about something that happened hundreds of years ago when people from L/ROCH never even mentioned DGQB.

[IcyFox]

I can't understand why you can't.
From the following passage:

• When senior master Dugu took on the entire Martial World with this set of Dugu Nine Swords many years ago, he couldn’t even find a single person that could defeat him, that was all because he had reached the acme of perfection with the set of sword techniques.

(Said Feng Qingyang, Chapter 10).
It can obviously infer that: ALL BECAUSE OF Dugu 9 Jian, he COULD NOT even FIND a single person who COULD beat him.
Notice the word "ALL" here, from that we can infer that his other external kung fu skills were no interesting.
Not sure about his internal energy.

The word "ALL" really came from you. So if that really is "ALL", why doesn't the "ALL" include his internal energy? If it doesn't, how can you say that this is "ALL"? BTW, do you know what is DG9J?

You misunderstood my post, I'm trying to prove that Dugu Qiubai was FAR INFERIOR to Sweeper Monk..

That shouldn't pose much difficulties. Try coming over to my side and prove otherwise. It proves to be a really big headache!

[RongYingMin]

I wonder how Feng Qingyang knows about something that happened hundreds of years ago when people from L/ROCH never even mentioned DGQB.

I think Feng Qingyang found Dugu's testament when he was being punished to stay atop the Cliff of Repentance and fell off the cliff down to the chasm.
In the testament, Dugu wrote everything about his Dugu 9 Jian and his life story.

The word "ALL" really came from you. So if that really is "ALL", why doesn't the "ALL" include his internal energy? If it doesn't, how can you say that this is "ALL"? BTW, do you know what is DG9J?

No, it doesn't come from me, it comes from the translation of Lanny Lin, chapter 10. You can visit the site www.lannyland.com to find more.
DG9J? From chapter 10 and from my inference, it had 9 stances, embracing all other kinds of sword art of Europe and the Central Plains.

That shouldn't pose much difficulties. Try coming over to my side and prove otherwise. It proves to be a really big headache!

I also wanna try to prove that Dugu Qiubai was not too superior to GuoJing/YangGuo/ZhangWuji, and seemed most likely to be inferior to Dongfang Bubai.

[IcyFox]

No, it doesn't come from me, it comes from the translation of Lanny Lin, chapter 10. You can visit the site www.lannyland.com to find more.
DG9J? From chapter 10 and from my inference, it had 9 stances, embracing all other kinds of sword art of Europe and the Central Plains.

I have read it before in order to understand what actually is DG9J. I'm not that new here to be unaware of the existence of Lanny's web site.

What I'm saying is that the evidence (the translation) itself does not contain the word "ALL". From your inferences, you came up with the word "ALL".

[siegefried]

I do not really want to get into the argument, but just point out the 3 fallacies in economics.

No.1 Fallacy that Association is Causation
No.2 Fallacy of Composition
No.3 Mistake of Ignoring Secondary Effects

Not sure if any of you study economics, but here is what I would like to point out- A fallacy of composition arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some (or even every) part of the whole.

RongYingMin, some of your statements seem to have breached this. Don't mind me on it, but it sounds more like twisting the words.

For example, the part on DG9J. How would you know that he preferred to use DG9J because there was no need for him to execute other skills? Or that no one knew the existance of his other skills because they were dead once hs used it? I have no idea as well, but blind assumption does not make a case.

(Take my post as you like! I just prefer to see more objective and critical analysis!)

[IcyFox]

I do not really want to get into the argument, but just point out the 3 fallacies in economics.

No.1 Fallacy that Association is Causation
No.2 Fallacy of Composition
No.3 Mistake of Ignoring Secondary Effects

Not sure if any of you study economics, but here is what I would like to point out- A fallacy of composition arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some (or even every) part of the whole.

Fallacies apply to more than just economics! Just go ahead and fire at will!

[RongYingMin]

I have read it before in order to understand what actually is DG9J. I'm not that new here to be unaware of the existence of Lanny's web site.

What I'm saying is that the evidence (the translation) itself does not contain the word "ALL". From your inferences, you came up with the word "ALL".

It actually contain the word "ALL"..
I'll take a screen shot and upload it here to show you.
Not sure about the original version.

[IcyFox]

It actually contain the word "ALL"..
I'll take a screen shot and upload it here to show you.

Damn I'm twisting my own words... Now I forgot what it was "ALL" about. Wait a moment. Let me go back and check it out.

[RongYingMin]

No.1 Fallacy that Association is Causation
No.2 Fallacy of Composition
No.3 Mistake of Ignoring Secondary Effects

Not sure if any of you study economics, but here is what I would like to point out- A fallacy of composition arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some (or even every) part of the whole.

RongYingMin, some of your statements seem to have breached this. Don't mind me on it, but it sounds more like twisting the words.

For example, the part on DG9J. How would you know that he preferred to use DG9J because there was no need for him to execute other skills? Or that no one knew the existance of his other skills because they were dead once hs used it? I have no idea as well, but blind assumption does not make a case.

(Take my post as you like! I just prefer to see more objective and critical analysis!)

Ha ha, I'm still a highschool student and don't know much about economics.
I can only point out an example:

• If you study economics ALL by a single book, that means THERE's NO OTHER books from which you get your knowledge.

Right? That's NOT FALLACY, is that?

@IcyFox: It's time I did my homework now. I'll be back 2 days later. Bye bye for now.

[IcyFox]

To RongYingMin:

Alright I made a mistake by 'accusing' you of something you didn't do. I apologise.

But, even so, I believe I'm not too far wrong.

此式是为对付身具上乘内功的敌人而用，神而明之，存乎一心。独孤前辈当年挟
此剑横行天下，欲求一败而不可得，那是他老人家已将这套剑法使得出神入化之故。

(Taken from the Chinese 2nd Edition.)

[kwekmh]

He only used DG9J to defeat his enemies does not mean that he did not have other skills, and you can estimate his internal strength. If he was reaching the no-sword stage, he needed to have EXTREMELY HIGH internal strength.

[Ardor]

1. FQY's internal energy was unknown. He is possibly = to ZWJ judging from his contact lens as seen by Tian Boguang.

2. The DG9J depends on being able to see the opponent's weaknesses before the move is used(a point Linghu Chong would need 20 years to reach). Also, to master a DG9J requires one to master whatever they are breaking. That is why Linghu Chong's Sword Breaking Stance and General Index Stance is far superior to the other 6 stances that he knows.

3. DG9J made its debut in ROCH during the fight with Qiu Qian Ren (read that part, you will see something very familiar).

4. Dugu Qiubai as described in ROCH has given up complex and fast movements for simple movements designed to overpower. In the scenes where Yang Guo was using the Heavy Iron Sword, his movements were simple and did not bother too much with breaking his opponents moves, just overpowering them with sheer force. Jin Yong also stated that YG could not have used any complex movements due to the nature of the sword even after he has mastered using it.

5. You do realise you are gauging something without any "facts" right? Dr. Stephen T. Colbert D.F.A (the character) would be proud.

[dracnom]

Because he could state that, that means he really mastered the 9th stance.

Stating something doesn't mean that its true, plus the 9th stance is very mysterious, DGQB died around 200 years before FQY and the ninth stance as you said is

The essence of the move really depends on your own interpretation.

FQY wouldnt have known DGQB's interpretation, he interpreted in his own way.

DGQB's DG9J is far more superior to overwhelming with internal energy, also it had to be created during mid to the end of his life, he had to study the ways to break stances and his knowledge during the remaining years of his life would be really great, therefore to create DG9J.

至于第九剑“破气式”，风清扬只是传以口诀和修习之法

FQY only taught LHC the script and formula, because it is to break the qi of a stronger opponent, it probably is most likely a hit to the body, supressing the flow of qi, but because FQY only LHC the script and formula, how would LHC know where to hit the enemy, this also shows that FQY also may not know where to aswell.

[K2Grey]

First, your argument that the 8th stance blocks all missiles seems circular to me, although I can't remember exactly how to go about proving it.

2nd, DFBB didn't use projectiles.

[Ardor]

They started from General Index Stance and went on with Sword-breaking Stance, Knife-breaking Stance, Spear-breaking Stance, Mace-breaking Stance, Whip-breaking Stance, Palm-breaking Stance, and Missile-breaking Stance all the way till the ninth stance, Energy-breaking Stance.

The Spear-breaking Stance included techniques to overcome long weapons such as long-handled spear, long-handled halberd, snake-shaped spear, staff, fanged cudgel, white wax stick, Buddhist monk’s staff, and Buddhist monk’s spade.

The Mace-breaking Stance was used to overcome short weapons such as steel club, iron mace, point-sealing peg, crutches, Emei[1] sting, dagger, war axe, iron plate, octagonal hammer, and iron awl.

The Whip-breaking stance was able to overcome flexible weapons such as long cord, whip, three-sectioned staff, chain spear, iron chain, fishing net, and meteor hammer.

Although each move was just one stance, it had endless variations. The more Linghu Chong learned, the more powerful it became when he comprehended the connections between each stance. The last three stances were the most difficult ones.

The Palm-breaking Stance overcame Kung Fu skills related to one’s fists, legs, fingers, and palms. If the opponent were brave enough to fight against a sword with bare hands, he had to have superb Kung Fu skills and that using a weapon or not was really no difference for him any more. There are many fist forms, leg forms, finger forms, and palm forms in the world, and all of them are very complex. The Palm-breaking Stance included techniques to overcome boxing and grappling, joint manipulation and point sealing, demon claw and tiger claw hands, iron sand divine palm, and the type of barehanded Kung Fu skills.

The word “Missile” in the name of the Missile-breaking Stance included the many different kinds of missiles and projectiles. To be able to learn this stance, the practitioner must first learn the skill of distinguishing the type of the missile by ear. He not only should be capable of blocking the many kinds of missiles coming from the enemy with his long sword, but also redirecting the force in the missiles to send them back and injure the enemy with his own missiles.

When it came to the ninth stance, Energy-breaking Stance, Feng Qingyang only taught Linghu Chong the script and formula of how to practice it.

Feng Qingyang explained, “This stance is used to overcome opponents who have great inner energy. The essence of the move really depends on your own interpretation. When senior master Dugu took on the entire Martial World with this set of Dugu Nine Swords many years ago, he couldn’t even find a single person that could defeat him, that was all because he had reached the acme of perfection with the set of sword techniques. The same sword technique from the same Huashan style sword art could have very different effect and power. It’s the same with the Dugu Nine Swords. Even though you have learned the sword techniques, if you can’t perfect your skills, you would still be no match for first-class elite fighters in today’s world. You have already entered the field. If you prefer to win than lose, go practice hard for another twenty years, then you will be capable of competing with the key players in the world.”

Remember that to use any of the breaking stances against an elite(not even top tier), you need to have a degree of mastery in it. Linghu Chong therefore is only capable of competing sword techniques with the masters of his time. If they used palm techniques, he would be screwed. The book has implied/mentioned this many times. (e.g. Ren Woxing's fight with Fang Zheng where LHC realised he could not predict any palm movements.

Using a needle would be probably a mix of projectile and bare hand techniques. It's moves will definitely be closer to those of barehanded moves which LHC is weak against.

[dracnom]

First, your argument that the 8th stance blocks all missiles seems circular to me, although I can't remember exactly how to go about proving it.

2nd, DFBB didn't use projectiles.

sorry my bad, thought DFBB fired his needle...

[RongYingMin]

@ All the others discussing with me IcyFox, Ardor, kwekmh, dracnom:
- So the original text does not contain the word "ALL".
But from the text I think we can consider that the MOST POWERFUL set of external Kung fu of Dugu Qiubai was Dugu 9 Jian.
- As for Dugu's internal energy, his internal energy certainly > Yang Guo. But I don't think he reached the level of Sweeper Monk's, because he was still TRYING TO REACH the level of no - sword.
- I have to return to the statement of Jin Yong in the novel: "even Dugu Qiubai AND Feng Qingyang would be extremely pleased to exchange moves with Ren Woxing".
That most likely seems that Jin Yong means Dugu Qiubai certainly was superior to Feng Qingyang and Ren Woxing, but not too far.

[Ardor]

Jin Yong was, i think describing that Ren Woxing is close to being formless, therefore his sword technique matches up with the Dugu9Jian nicely.

However, the level of qi that Dugu Qiubai has reached is an unknown. All we do know is that he could use blades of grass like the Heavy Iron Sword.

Any Great levelled fighter could use a wooden sword like a real sword, but none can use the wooden sword like the Heavy Iron Sword. To do so requires unreal(also unknown) amounts of internal energy. Remember that the Heavy Iron Sword is harder than precious stones. And it needed to be wielded with an amazing amount of force.

For all we know, it may take twice XuZhu's qi to reach Dugu Qiubai's qi levels.