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Thread: Wuxia "villains" who were really just good people on the wrong side

  1. #1
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Wuxia "villains" who were really just good people on the wrong side

    One thing about wuxia villains, particularly those in Jin Yong's stories, is that rarely are any of them *all* bad. Many villains have a more noble side to them, although they are rarely ruled by it (which is why they're villains).

    There are also a number of characters who are on the villainous side by virtue of whom they're aligned with or against, but aren't necessarily bad people. They're good or at least morally ambiguous people who happen to be working on the villainous side. Which people am I thinking of particularly?

    1. Ma Gwong Jor (ROCH): He was part of Kublai Khan's retinue of hired mercenary warriors, but he was nothing like the Golden Wheel Monk or Lui Mor Singh. He had a strong sense of decency, and although his martial arts were lousy, he was brave and loyal. Yeung Gor considered him a good friend. When he realized what a bunch of bastards the Golden Wheel Monk's gang was, he stopped working with them.

    2. Dat Yee Ba (ROCH): Like Ma Gwong Jor, a good, loyal guy who just happened to owe his loyalties to a villain. This guy also had a sense of decency and compassion. Although I think it's only a TVB scene from ROCH '83, he once protected Little Dragon Girl from an attack by Siu Seung Tze because she had baby Gwok Seung in her arms. A guy who objects to attacking innocent children can't be all bad.

    3. Hung Ling Bor (ROCH): For some reason, ROCH had a fairly large share of these morally ambiguous "villains." Lee Mok Sau's primary student was not like her. Hung Ling Bor had a sense of compassion, and spared or saved Luk Mo Seung and Yeung Gor on several occassions, at risk to herself.

    4. Southern Seas Divine Crocodile (Great Evil # 3) (DGSD): He was known as one of the "Great Evils," and indeed he was known for such barbarous and cruel acts as twisting people's heads off. Wulin is a rough place, however, and his violent acts were not necessarily any more immoral than, say, Kiu Fung killing people at Tsui Yin Manor. What we saw in Divine Crocodile was a very loyal friend (to his fellow Evils) and follower (to Deun Yin Hing and later, Deun Yu). He was a man of his word, and once you earned his loyalty, you had it for life. If he considers you a friend, he'll stick up for you. His martial arts were not great by the standards of DGSD elites, but he would never run from a fight. Great Evil? This guy had more heroic than evil characteristics, and is probably more heroic than some so-called "heroes."

    5. Mui Chiu Fung (LOCH): Although she killed countless people, I never really thought that Mui Chiu Fung, deep down, was truly an evil person. She was misguided, to be sure, and her choice to betray her teacher and learn the 9 Yum White Bone Claws with her husband led her down a dark road, but I don't think she was devoid of compassion or decency.

    6. Eight Armed Swordsman (Ah Dai) (HSDS): He was more honorable than the other cronies who served Prince Chagan Timur. Unlike his comrades Ah 2 and Ah 3, I don't see Ah Dai as the type who would torture a helpless man. This guy didn't even want to watch as Cheung 3 Fung taught Cheung Mo Gei the Tai Chi Sword Technique because he thought that would be too dishonorable.

    7. The younger Yeun Ming Elder (HSDS): The one who kidnapped Cheung Mo Gei. He had an opportunity once to gain more wealth and power by betraying his sworn brother (the other Yeun Ming Elder), but chose not to. A guy who would do that can't be all bad.

    8. West Poison Au Yeung Fung (ROCH only): He was a bona fide cold-blooded villain in LOCH, but by ROCH, we see an entirely different side to him. It was hard to not feel sorry for him, and I think even Gwok Jing had forgiven him for all the things he had done during LOCH.

  2. #2
    Senior Member bloodstar's Avatar
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    ZZR. She was under oath to steal the heaven sword and dragon sabre and to achieve that she had to hatch some kind of devious plan, since there was no way she could ever wrestle the sabre from Xie Xun with her puny skills; plus she was jilted at the wedding altar so i think her wrath at getting back at ZWJ was quite understandable.

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    Senior Member AnhHung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodstar
    ZZR. She was under oath to steal the heaven sword and dragon sabre and to achieve that she had to hatch some kind of devious plan, since there was no way she could ever wrestle the sabre from Xie Xun with her puny skills; plus she was jilted at the wedding altar so i think her wrath at getting back at ZWJ was quite understandable.
    Understandable, but unforgivable. The oath can not justify what she planned and did. Attacking XX and misleading ZWJ into marrying her was not part of the oath. I would say she is one of the "good people who is really vilains on the wrong side".
    You do know that it is just fiction, dont you?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnhHung
    Understandable, but unforgivable. The oath can not justify what she planned and did. Attacking XX and misleading ZWJ into marrying her was not part of the oath. I would say she is one of the "good people who is really vilains on the wrong side".
    Agreed. Chow Chi Yerk was the opposite of the phenomenon I'm describing.

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    Senior Member Ardor's Avatar
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    Half of Smiling Proud Wanderer are good people on the "villian" side.
    Burying his Dugu 9 Jian manual under an epitaph, Dugu Qiubai felt he has left his legacy for the next generation. He then moved to Shaolin to study Buddhism, sweep floors and tap elite fighters.

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    Golden Wheel Monk - I always thought he worked for the country more so than for himself. Au Yeung Fung seems to me to be a bigger villain than Golden Wheel Monk.

    Ah Zi (from what I see in adaptations, not sure about the novel, and definitely from what I heard, not the one portrayed by Katie Chan).

    The man with the long white beard who was a "student" of Gongsun Zi.

    Yeung Hong - was raised by a prince, was taught money and power came naturally.

    MuRong Fu (when he was young, constantly being told he had to resurrect his kingdom over and over and over).

  7. #7
    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Funny all the evils in SPW weren't all that bad. Even DFBB was lenient, maybe RWX out of the main villians was true.

    But I guess if we look hard enough many villians have a good side - if even Westie is listed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    2. Dat Yee Ba (ROCH): Like Ma Gwong Jor, a good, loyal guy who just happened to owe his loyalties to a villain. This guy also had a sense of decency and compassion. Although I think it's only a TVB scene from ROCH '83, he once protected Little Dragon Girl from an attack by Siu Seung Tze because she had baby Gwok Seung in her arms. A guy who objects to attacking innocent children can't be all bad.
    Was it a good thing he was hypnotized by Yeung Gor? Yes, he was loyal for sure. He came back and attacked the traitor "Huk Do" (sorry I know I butchered the name).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    3. Hung Ling Bor (ROCH): Lee Mok Sau's primary student was not like her. Hung Ling Bor had a sense of compassion, and spared or saved Luk Mo Seung and Yeung Gor on several occassions, at risk to herself.
    I think the first time she met LMS, she was already showing niceness towards her. HLB I guess was raised by Lee Mak Sau so LMS might be like her mother. One day as teacher, lifetime as father, in this case lifetime as mother.

    Was HLB an orphan as well? Perhaps she knows the pain Luk Mo Seung is going through, who just became an orphan herself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    4. Southern Seas Divine Crocodile (Great Evil # 3) (DGSD): What we saw in Divine Crocodile was a very loyal friend (to his fellow Evils) and follower (to Deun Yin Hing and later, Deun Yu). He was a man of his word, and once you earned his loyalty, you had it for life. If he considers you a friend, he'll stick up for you. His martial arts were not great by the standards of DGSD elites, but he would never run from a fight. Great Evil? This guy had more heroic than evil characteristics, and is probably more heroic than some so-called "heroes."
    I think his character is similar to Blood Hands Du Sha from Jue Dai Shuang Jiao of Gu Long world. Du Sha was the leader of the Ten Evils. But he was the one that lived by his word. Whatever he says, he will do. He does not lie either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    7. The younger Yeun Ming Elder (HSDS): The one who kidnapped Cheung Mo Gei. He had an opportunity once to gain more wealth and power by betraying his sworn brother (the other Yeun Ming Elder), but chose not to. A guy who would do that can't be all bad.
    But unlike Dat Yee Ba, this guy had no problem attacking a child, Cheung Mo Kei. Was he not a eunuch as well? (I think he was one in the HSDS86 adaptation). Maybe there is some gay love going on his part towards his partner in crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    8. West Poison Au Yeung Fung (ROCH only): He was a bona fide cold-blooded villain in LOCH, but by ROCH, we see an entirely different side to him. It was hard to not feel sorry for him, and I think even Gwok Jing had forgiven him for all the things he had done during LOCH.
    People become innocent when they lose their mind (sometimes, or from what I see in series). They go back to childhood days. Au Yeung Fung also worked for the wrong side in LOCH. Though he was probably more evil in nature no matter what side he was on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnhHung
    Understandable, but unforgivable. The oath can not justify what she planned and did. Attacking XX and misleading ZWJ into marrying her was not part of the oath. I would say she is one of the "good people who is really vilains on the wrong side".
    That statement is reserved for that B*TCH Miejue.

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    Senior Member Bangs's Avatar
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    Lee Mok Sau became evil because of betrayal in love. She loved too much, thus her feelings became negative when she got hurt. She has a good side though, we have seen this side when she was with GX.

    On the other hand, Gongsun Zhi was totally despicable.

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    South Seas Divine Crocodile was definitely evil. He is one of those types who is loyal to a small group and doesn't care about the lives of anyone else. Not much better than being loyal to only oneself and not caring about the lives of anyone else.

    And that small group didn't contain his former disciple who, if he had still be alive, SSDC was willing to kill for the sake of getting a new disciple with better martial arts base.

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    Member lilchilipepper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz
    Funny all the evils in SPW weren't all that bad. Even DFBB was lenient, maybe RWX out of the main villians was true.

    But I guess if we look hard enough many villians have a good side - if even Westie is listed.
    I think the thing about SOD was that all the supposedly "bad" guys were far more moral than all the supposedly "good" guys. Thus you have ppl who are villains (Xiang Wen Tian, Tian Bo Guang, etc.) who are better than the heros (Yue Bu Qun, Zhuo Lan Tan).
    如果要让我活 让我有希望的活
    我从不怕爱错 就怕没爱过
    ~孙悟空 - 五月天

    难道说难道说 这性格是我的错
    你不会欣赏我是你的自由
    怎么说怎么说都认为你不值得
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    Senior Member resident:alien's Avatar
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    I'll have to agree w/Ken on Mei Chao Feng. She wasn't all that bad, just misguided. Also, weren't her and her husband afraid that Huang Yao Shi would not approve of their marriage?
    [ 空蕩的街景 想找個人放感情 做這種決定 是寂寞與我為鄰...我們的愛情 像你路過的風景 一直在進行 腳步卻從來不會為我而停...給你的愛一直很安靜 來交換你偶爾給的關心 明明是三個人的電影 我卻始終不能有姓名...你說愛像雲 要自在飄浮才美麗 我終於相信 分手的理由有時候很動聽...給你的愛一直很安靜 來交換你偶爾給的關心 明明是三個人的電影 我卻始終不能有姓名... 一直很安靜 ]

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    Senior Member Ardor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felix

    The man with the long white beard who was a "student" of Gongsun Zi.

    Yeung Hong - was raised by a prince, was taught money and power came naturally.
    That man became a good guy later in the novel.

    And Yang Kang! Of course! The poster boy for loving the wrong person!
    Burying his Dugu 9 Jian manual under an epitaph, Dugu Qiubai felt he has left his legacy for the next generation. He then moved to Shaolin to study Buddhism, sweep floors and tap elite fighters.

  15. #15
    Senior Member AnhHung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felix
    That statement is reserved for that B*TCH Miejue.
    I'll add her to the list.
    You do know that it is just fiction, dont you?

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilchilipepper
    I think the thing about SOD was that all the supposedly "bad" guys were far more moral than all the supposedly "good" guys. Thus you have ppl who are villains (Xiang Wen Tian, Tian Bo Guang, etc.) who are better than the heros (Yue Bu Qun, Zhuo Lan Tan).
    Yep, and This concept was already quite prominently incorporated in DGSD by Jin Yong, where supposedly nice folks like Young Master Murong Fu, Senior Master Murong Bo, The Enlightened Monk of Giant Wheels Jiumozhi are basically hypocritical and fake, while supposedly evil people like the Four Evils demonstrated more compassion and loyalty. Therefore, I consider Jiumozhi, Murong Bo, Murong Fu to be more despicable than the Four Evil.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    I think Duan Yanqing would qualify. I once asked the forum what evil things did this LORD OF EVIL do to deseve his reputation, and the response I got was "he killed the Third Evil." Umm, yeah. Duan Yanqing is anything but extremely evil. His rescuing of Xuzhu (a total stranger at the time) demonstrates his loyalty. His refusal to throw a fit at Duan Yu and the Yellow-Eyebrowed Monk, even though they cheated to win, illustrates his fine class.

    Let's not forget that Xuzhu would never have solved the chess puzzle without Duan Yanqing's help. Therefore, if not for Duan Yanqing's whole-heartedly well-intended help, Xuzhu would not have been the successor of Xiaoyao Pai at all. In fact, it is not Xuzhu alone who deserves to win the puzzle. Duan Yanqing also deserved to receive half of Wuyazi's power.

    Ladies and gentlemen, let's hear it for The Righteous Prince, The Original Emperor, "The King of Kindness" Duan Yanqing.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilchilipepper
    I think the thing about SOD was that all the supposedly "bad" guys were far more moral than all the supposedly "good" guys. Thus you have ppl who are villains (Xiang Wen Tian, Tian Bo Guang, etc.) who are better than the heros (Yue Bu Qun, Zhuo Lan Tan).
    Tian Bo Guang was a GOOD MAN? Even for a lot of innocent girls he raped without any repentance?
    This character was REALLY the MOST EVIL I've ever read. .

  19. #19
    Member lilchilipepper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RongYingMin
    Tian Bo Guang was a GOOD MAN? Even for a lot of innocent girls he raped without any repentance?
    This character was REALLY the MOST EVIL I've ever read. .
    I was referring more to when he turned into a monk. At the very very least, despite his raping tendencies, he was open about it. To be honest, I would rather know that there is a rapist in town than to not know. I mean, if you know he exists, then you can take measures to avoid him. However, if you don't even know that a rapist exists, how do you avoid it?

    It's almost like the concept of "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer."

    The reason I said that he's more moral than Zhuo Lan Tan or Yue Bu Qun is because 1) he shows repentance in that he promises LHC he won't rape girls anymore which is worth something, 2) hypocrites are far scarier than open bad guys and 3) he has greater sense of righteousness in terms of loyalty and honesty than the aforementioned "good guys."

    Anyway, I never said that Tian Bo Guang is a GOOD man. He deserves punishment for all the harm he's done. However, I honestly believe that Yue Bu Qun is more evil. It's like picking who is the lesser of two evils.
    如果要让我活 让我有希望的活
    我从不怕爱错 就怕没爱过
    ~孙悟空 - 五月天

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    你不会欣赏我是你的自由
    怎么说怎么说都认为你不值得
    你走了才发现这个世界没改变
    ~平底鞋女生 - 迷子

  20. #20
    Senior Member Zhuge Liang's Avatar
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    4. Southern Seas Divine Crocodile (Great Evil # 3) (DGSD): He was known as one of the "Great Evils," and indeed he was known for such barbarous and cruel acts as twisting people's heads off. Wulin is a rough place, however, and his violent acts were not necessarily any more immoral than, say, Kiu Fung killing people at Tsui Yin Manor. What we saw in Divine Crocodile was a very loyal friend (to his fellow Evils) and follower (to Deun Yin Hing and later, Deun Yu). He was a man of his word, and once you earned his loyalty, you had it for life. If he considers you a friend, he'll stick up for you. His martial arts were not great by the standards of DGSD elites, but he would never run from a fight. Great Evil? This guy had more heroic than evil characteristics, and is probably more heroic than some so-called "heroes."
    Xiao Feng killed as he had no choice. This guy while he had his moments and kept his word would kill innocents at the blink of an eye.

    Lee Mok Sau became evil because of betrayal in love. She loved too much, thus her feelings became negative when she got hurt. She has a good side though, we have seen this side when she was with GX.
    I was touched by her willingness to save GX but then she pissed all over my like for her by killing her own student that she had personally raised. If she had taken GX in as her student, would she also be willing to dispense of her in such a way once she was no longer a cute baby?

    I think Duan Yanqing would qualify. I once asked the forum what evil things did this LORD OF EVIL do to deseve his reputation, and the response I got was "he killed the Third Evil." Umm, yeah. Duan Yanqing is anything but extremely evil. His rescuing of Xuzhu (a total stranger at the time) demonstrates his loyalty. His refusal to throw a fit at Duan Yu and the Yellow-Eyebrowed Monk, even though they cheated to win, illustrates his fine class.
    He was willing to kill innocent ppl eg. the lovers of Duan Zheng Xuan. He orchestrated what he thought was going to be an incestuous pairing of 2 innocents to shame the people he hated.
    TristeCoeur on Lady Yang: Someone needs 2 tell her that when u want 2 save people from being killed, u need to hurry the hell up, not play bull#### music & dance around. Her mission failed big time

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