The Official Gwok Jing vs. Golden Wheel Monk Discussion Thread

[Ken Cheng]

Well, doubling your power in 30 years is not very unusual.

No, it isn't, especially not during the earlier phases of training and development. After a while, however, the Law of Diminishing Returns likely kicks in. I don't think that any of Jin Yong's martial artists found their martial arts growing exponentially every few years by the time they reached middle age. If that were the case, Cheung 3 Fung should have been even more powerful than he was.

[PJ]

No, it isn't, especially not during the earlier phases of training and development. After a while, however, the Law of Diminishing Returns likely kicks in. I don't think that any of Jin Yong's martial artists found their martial arts growing exponentially every few years by the time they reached middle age. If that were the case, Cheung 3 Fung should have been even more powerful than he was.

Actually, the characteristic of orthodox martial arts is that they improve at a faster rate in the long run, while unorthodox martial arts improve greatly at the beginning, but diminishes soon. Jin Yong showed this in several cases, but in the end it's not always consistent.

But we do know that Xiao Feng improved noticeably within half a year's time, at least 5% I'd think. Here is the quote detailing his improvement:

萧峰笑道：“好，还你！”右手得起钢杖，对准了山壁用力一搠，当的一声响，
直插入山壁之中。一根八尺来长的钢杖，倒有五尺插入岩中。这钢杖所插外乃是极
坚极硬的黑岩。萧峰这么运劲一掷，居然入岩如此之深，自己也觉欣然，寻思：“
这几个月来各历忧劳，功夫倒没搁下，反而更长进了。半年之前，我只怕还没能插
得如此深入。”

IF Xiao Feng can improve at a rate of 10% per year (without practicing, may I add), this means he will double his power in less than 10 years, before he reaches 40 years of age. His improvement may slow down with time, but we do know that at his current level (Great-level or higher), his rate of improvement is VERY HIGH.

[sixdays]

another interesting thing to note is whether that 10% is cumulative or not -- if so, that would add up even more in the long run. here's the example:

if XF at that part of the story = X

then next year, he would have been 1.1X, and the year after he'd be 1.21X, and after that he'd be 1.33X, 1.46, 1.6, 1.76, and therefore 1.93X by 6 years. he would more than double his power in 7 years.

of course, that's oversimplified, but it's a good illustration of how orthodox martial arts can give you greater and greater gains over time. unless i'm mistaken though, this theory only seems to make sense in terms of internal energy. can an art with a specified set of moves really improve at this kind of rate, PJ, or are we talking about the mastery of the art here? i don't think it's possible to set a given rate of improvement, and have it describe both internal energy increase and the mastery of your arts. it's too different.

ken, i believe you're right about the diminishing returns also --- up to a point. many of the second tier fighters in JY's stories have practiced the arts of their schools/clans for 30, 40 years and (compared to peons in the martial arts world) are quite powerful. however, i think the reason why the Greats and the other JY heroes (XF and Z3F, for example) are able to reach the next level is because of their skills in refinement. as long as you practice a skill blindly without figuring out its intent or structure, you will eventually hit a brick wall, even if it's 9yin. however, it's the ability that we see in H7G, YG, etc to take a skill and refine it further that pushes that diminishing return just a little farther out. i believe XF is probably the greatest example of this --- i get the feeling that he really understands the essence of martial arts, and practices them to their full intent, not just potential.

[Ghaleon]

While I do not respect the fighter Jinlun Fawang, I respect his Elephant-Dragon Tantra.

Usually Buddhist Qigong or Tantra are high powered arts since they are geared towards Buddhist enlightenment or nirvana.

The Elephant-Dragon Tantra used by Jin Yong in his stories is probably derived from Tibetan Yoga Tantras (in particular the Inner Heat Yogas and physical exercises of Naropa) in the same way that Yi Jin Jing (physical exercise) and Xi Hui Jing (inner energy cultivation) were used as templates for the Shaolin magical art of Yi Jin Jing.

In theory, Buddhist Tantras should be at least the same level as the counterpart Shaolin Arts from Damo as they are primarily geared towards enlightenment.

I think that is probably why Jin Yong emphasized the fact that nobody has attained Level 11-13 in the Elephant-Dragon Tantra. Because to do so would be close to achieving enlightenment in which your entire body becomes energy and you merge with the universe

[PJ]

In theory, Buddhist Tantras should be at least the same level as the counterpart Shaolin Arts from Damo as they are primarily geared towards enlightenment.

Not sure about that. DEP (Dragon Elephant Prajna) is bound by a level system, whereas Mainland Shaolin's arts are limitless. In theory, Shaolin martial arts should be more advanced.

In Jin Yong's world, orthodox martial arts are better than unorthodox martial arts, and Mainland martial arts are better than foreign martial arts. For example, Qiankun Danuoyi (another Level-bound kung fu) is inferior to Mainland's Liangyi art.

[Ghaleon]

Well it depends on the author's intent.

From the stories, I get the impression that Jin Yong emphasizes more on spiritual cultivation, in particular Taoist and Buddhist cultivation. In that sense, enlightenment is enlightenment no matter where the art comes from. I don't think Jin Yong makes a racial distinction between Chinese Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism.

Any art gears towards enlightenment is limitless by definition since enlightenment implies you transcend space and time =P

[PJ]

From the stories, I get the impression that Jin Yong emphasizes more on spiritual cultivation, in particular Taoist and Buddhist cultivation

I agree. But Ganryu, Do you really think that Golden Wheel Monk is meant to be enlightened? He's a despicable villain, not any better than Jiumozhi, and Jiumozhi definitely lacked true enlightenment. For that reason, Jiumozhi couldn't learn the advanced martial arts of Shaolin because he hadn't reached a certain stage of enlightenment yet.

[Ghaleon]

I agree. But Ganryu, Do you really think that Golden Wheel Monk is meant to be enlightened? He's a despicable villain, not any better than Jiumozhi, and Jiumozhi definitely lacked true enlightenment. For that reason, Jiumozhi couldn't learn the advanced martial arts of Shaolin because he hadn't reached a certain stage of enlightenment yet.

OK I think I see your point. I agree that GWM is not meant to be enlightened and I definiately do not respect him either. But I respect his art. I think Jin Yong respects Buddhist Tantras so he made the statement that "nobody has attained Level 11-13" to imply a high level of cultivation achievable in this art.

I'm assuming Jin Yong has done lot of research in Qigong and Tantras. Buddhist Tantras work by cultivating energy (prana) while practicing meditation on emptiness and no-ego. The more you realize emptiness and no-self, generally the higher level you can attain. So probably that is why Jin Yong made Jiumozhi have energy imbalance problems since Jiumozhi was not a good Buddhist practitioner. The sweeper monk is a good example of reaching high levels of cultivation by performing Shaolin Buddhist Tantra and cultivating emptiness and non-ego.

So when I look at cultivation, Level 13+ in Elephant-Dragon to me sounds like a Dugu Qiubai level of cultivation. Does that make sense?
Buddhist Tantra can be abused like how GWM uses his powers to further his political agendas. So I definitely see your point. I personally think GWM is not utilizing the full power of the tantra since he obviously has big ego and is selfish. In theory, the tantra should be more powerful if Buddhist teaching are applied in parallel with it. Of course I am just assuming Jin Yong has done research on Tantra and applied it in his novels.

I do have to admit that Jin Yong seems to show a bias against Tibetan monks. But I don't think he is biased against Tibetan art. Well at least I hope not...

[tape]

Faster and faster doesn't always mean a percentage, so it could be accurate. I.e. you gain 100 points the first year, 110 points the second year etc. But by the 20th year you already have like 2000+ points and gain another 150 points that year. It is faster and faster, as it is the most you've ever gained in one year, but it is not much % wise.

[PJ]

But by the 20th year you already have like 2000+ points and gain another 150 points that year. It is faster and faster, as it is the most you've ever gained in one year, but it is not much % wise.

Gaining 7.5% per year (150 / 2000) is still a lot! And IMO, that is about the minimum % of annual improvement to be considered "noticeable improvement." If Xiao Feng had only improved say 2% in half a year, I don't think he'd make a big deal about it as he did.

[tape]

Gaining 7.5% per year (150 / 2000) is still a lot! And IMO, that is about the minimum % of annual improvement to be considered "noticeable improvement." If Xiao Feng had only improved say 2% in half a year, I don't think he'd make a big deal about it as he did.

Right, I was just pointing out the fact that when JY says someone improves or cultivates his inner strength faster and faster, it does not always mean 10% a year compounding, like interest :P. If it took someone 30 years to double his inner strength, it can now take him another 50-60 years to double it, even if he is accumulating faster and faster, since doubling now requires many more points. There is no diminishing returns, the returns are just smaller in proportion to the base, though if you calculate it % wise, I suppose it is diminishing.